-
RGA
My Son and I will be popping across the Straights soon to visit the folks at TC-Helicon at Bertram Place, so I will check out Soundhounds. Sounds like a great store. If we make it upto Nanaimo, perhaps we can pop in for a cup of tea and a bun?..? :D
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Ashman
How exactly to I profit from PSB, Triad, Revel, Energy, etc? The problem for me is that I find most products to have heavily compromized design, obvious sonic flaws, or are terribly overpriced. I'm more picky than you are, obviously.
Plus, I'm "damned if I do, damned if I don't." My favorite brand is clearly NHT (which is why I get practically everything else in trade), but if I recommend it, I'm a shill. And, apparently, if I recommend something other than NHT, I'm "irresponsible".
BTW, I just got a review in for you to read on Xd, smarty pants -
http://www.adnm.com/pdfs/australianxdreview.pdf
That's interesting I never read you recommend any of these other ones. Though having heard PSB and Energy I certainly know where you come from -- Interestingly the Veritas have many of the problems you associate to B&W - Energy's saving grace is they are less pricey. It's a shame you should come up here and bring ANY PSB or Energy standmount along and we'll do a little shootout.
And if I'm not mistaken Revel's chief guy is Kevin Voecks formerly of Snell (he worked with Peter Snell incidentally). Unfortunately when Snell died Voecks took the reigns and made crappy models like the B-Minor (now just another retread nothing speaker they had to drop because prospective customers heard the models). Very nice looking and slim models with puny bass response no cohesion terrible to try and position properly and re-sellers nightmare. Commercial Electronics tried to sell me the b-Minor but the salesman and I just could not stop laughing at how truly terrible it sounded. "I can;t sell you these it's just too embarrassing." Though really a $5,000.00 speaker only 18 months old and they were asking $1800.00 and still had trouble selling it. Voecks driove them into the ground with such rubbish...so I'm not surprised at all you like his designs.
Some speakers(not every model but selected ones) I recommend are from Gershman Acoustics, Magnepan, Energy, Athena Acoustics, PMC, Dynaudio, Reference 3a, Linn, B&W, Paradigm, Wharfedale, Mission, Klipsch, Cerwin Vega, Sonus Faber, Polk Audio, Pro-Ac, Totem, JM Labs.
Not all for audiophilia nervosa types obviously but I can;t say i've heard a single NHT that didn't remind me of nails on chalkboard and uneven presentation - and some of these disasters were well reviewed too -- just as the B-Minor was well reviewed. Indeed, it seems I am more picky...I understand what a person wants and try and suggest what they "might" like at a given price and a given musical preference they want presented in either an accurate or fun way (sometimes both not always). But when big old drab flabby incoherent tubby stuff comes along like the B-Minor and then they have the nerve to charge obscene prices for it then I get upset. And when speaker companies put out a NEW and improved speaker and charges 30% more money like the B&W 705 over the CDM 1NT and it gets worse then I'll dump on them -- and when Audio note puts out the AX One a rather boring boxy dumpy totally unexciting beaten by speakers half the price I'll tell people like I have done on this forum in the past. Only though if people are asking about the model in question.
The AN J by the way murders the Veritas 2.2 A good but spitsy speaker with false detail and relatively puny dynamics. I say relatively because in its own right it sounds quite good for the money and certainly worthy to be checked out - The J is considerably more expensive so it should be put up against the 2.4 But this floorstander doesn;t have the J's bass response and it doesn't gel very well from top to bottom (Though I wopuld take ot over anything in the 700 series from B&W) The Top Energy still has less bass depth than the AN J has less sensitivity and requires several drivers and cheap cabinetry in order to wrestle all that less sound off the disc. And their treble does them in.
The 2.8 which I don;t think they make anymore, other than the high treble, was quite an entertaining open and powerful sounding speaker which i felt was a relative steal for the $5kCad price it was going at. Big bold taught and powerful and elegant with bags and baggs of drive. The 2.4 is solid but still has issues that i could not live with. Though interestingly I like it a fair bit more than the standmount which is not common.
No one sells Revel here - but being from Voecks I'm not expecing much.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Duminy
RGA
My Son and I will be popping across the Straights soon to visit the folks at TC-Helicon at Bertram Place, so I will check out Soundhounds. Sounds like a great store. If we make it upto Nanaimo, perhaps we can pop in for a cup of tea and a bun?..? :D
No problems -- give me some notice. I will be very busy from now through December 17th as I'm in my final semester at MAL-U. I have a 6 week practicum that will bury me for a while.
You're going to make me self-conscious with your background in speaker design - how are you at room acoustics :D I am not entirely convinced by my panelling -- It helped reduce the slap echo I was having but it seems to have overdeadened the sound a little. Damn apartment buildings. Plus in about 5 months I'll be leaving the country and storing all my gear anyway -- so panelling is a bit of a waste. Gots to make money by new turntable/DAC/ house to make sound better.
As an aside: The MAL-U has taken in Katrina victims so that students from Universities in New Orleans etc can continue their studies here so they don't lose a semester...And they're being charged the home rate instead of the abroad rate which comparatively saves them a bucket load.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Some speakers(not every model but selected ones) I recommend are from Gershman Acoustics, Magnepan, Energy, Athena Acoustics, PMC, Dynaudio, Reference 3a, Linn, B&W, Paradigm, Wharfedale, Mission, Klipsch, Cerwin Vega, Sonus Faber, Polk Audio, Pro-Ac, Totem, JM Labs.
I don't know all of those, but if you think Linn, B&W, Mission, Klipsch, Cerwin-Vega, Polk make recommendable speakers, let's just say we have completely different tastes, will never agree and I have no reason now to bother trying to find one of the 5 or 10 Audio Note dealers in the US. I don't like colored speakers, thanks.
Quote:
Not all for audiophilia nervosa types obviously but I can;t say i've heard a single NHT that didn't remind me of nails on chalkboard and uneven presentation - and some of these disasters were well reviewed too
Yeah, I suppose one of the best known and reviewed speaker companies for performance AND value made "well reviewed disasters" and just got lucky. If you think NHT reminds you of nails on a chalkboard and Klipsh or C-V don't, I'm speechless. I do nothing but trade in most of your recommended brands for NHT all year long. Right now, I've got some Linn Espeks traded in for Xd, Klispch KG 2.5s traded in for SB1s, B&W M801 IIIs traded in for NHT M6s. I did finally get rid of the Mission 775 towers, but at 25% of retail because *no one* would buy them the moment they heard a $500 NHT bookshelf.
Quote:
No one sells Revel here - but being from Voecks I'm not expecing much.
Which is why I don't value your opinion in the least.
-
Well you didn't read what I said so that's fine. If someone wants heavey metal at 110decibals for a big room to throw parties and has $1kCdn then some hack NHT dealer will come along and suggest some prissy little standmount over the Cerwin Vega D9.
You would recommend such a system because YOU profit from NHT while I on the other hand would actually pay attention to what the person wants -- and for a great many applications the D-9 will trounce an NHT standmount and for that matter AN standmounts. Which is precisely why i said not all those I recommend are to support "audiophile nervosa" people who buy speakers because they have textbook measurements but sound banal and uninspired. I want a company who has 1or 2 people who have vast experience listening to real live music and build their speakers with technology but also with their ear and will have the balls to choose the listening experience over the measured response.
Funny the NHT dealer here went out of business because everyone would rather buy B&W loudspeakers. NHT has zero presence here because their speakers are as I described. AN has few dealers by choice not circumstance. Just as Rolls Royce would not want some Used Car dealer types selling their vehicles Peter would not want a bunch of also-rans selling his gear. Since they're about the customer making the decision with their ears rather than pushy dealers like you telling customers what they should like and buy he has to be relatively selective who carries his line and who may tarnish it if he chooses wrong.
Audio Note sells more gear at Soundhounds than any other brand -- including Bryston. They have dropped two brands Totem, and Martin Logan and the B&W N801 because the N801 kept being returned - and given the floor space they take up the store didn;t like having the same speaker keep coming back!
It is interesting that all those brands are far easier to sell because they all take out endless adverts and have reams and reams of reviews for their gear -- and are home theater friendly and often cheaper.
Coloured the AN's may be -- But if I get 95% of the recording with 5% added colour or I get 2% colouration and 55% of what was on the disc thanks I choose the first one every time. And as was mentioned in an AN J review he noted colouration UNTIL he connected them to the matching AN amp when the colouration dissapeared. See good speakers will give you the source's weaknesses both the equipment and the recording process' weaknesses -- and of course you hear a homogenized sameness with NHT because they have poor resoloution so its not surprising that you know doubt feel that all amps and cd players sound the same.
B&W often says a similar thing that they are telling you the weaknesses of upstream gear -- but the difference is that it's usually always bright or brittle with everything so you realize that it's not telling you the weakness of recordings or amplifiers because the weaknesses or difference is always one of edgyness or shrillness. Then you realize that it's just the speaker's mismatching for tweeter and midwoofer and perhaps all the things you complain about with kevlar and the crossover. I certainly hear what you hear with a number of B&W loudspeakers. The bad thing about Audio Note silver wired speakers is that they are sensitive to front ends and while they sound fine badly positioned they are picky about where they're put to avoid midrange colour. Hi-Fi Choice is the publication that calls the AN's fairly coloured but they run SS amplification and their room has no usable corner -- and despite being badly positioned and run with gear the owner doesn;t want running them -- they use the speaker and have since 1992 as a reference tool to judge equipment in their listening tests. DESPITE putting the speakers in a position to perform their worst they STILL manage top marks. Get them in a corner and the colouration goes away. No one would put a K-horn 8 feet into the room and 5 feet from the side walls with no corners and expect results and if someone puts the NHT 3.3 in a corner they'd sure sound coloured too.
And of all the $20k speakers he could have purchased and he's heard a lot this is what he bought http://www.dagogo.com/AudioNoteAN-E-SEC-SILVER.html
-
Just a clarification, the "Peter" RGA is referring to is Peter Qvortrup and not yours truly here. Although I wouldn't mind Peter Q's Bank Balance though! :D Just joking of course.
-
RGA,
Now that is rambling, the man said he does not care for your opinion and then you proceed with five extra paragraphs of jive :confused: . :D
PS: Stay true to your signature line, Ignore the press. ;)
-
AN speakers just plain suck....
sorry....i couldn't help meself...I really needed that...sorry...excuse me....pardon me....really...sorry...I'm ill...sorry...couldn't hold back....excuse me...pardon me...(slides out the back door)...
lmao, Pogue
-
I think you guys really need to listen to RGA instead of doing the same thing that happend to me. You take the 5% of BS and value the other 95% of his text with it. He has a good point, if i want a 110db Rock Concert in my 60m2 room than you wont buy a bloddy mini-monitor with deqx or tact equipment. I am a dealer, but dont shout that my stuff is the best there is. If someone likes it, its cool with me. I never cared and still dont care for B&W, Dynaudio, PSB, Snell or Martin Logans (exept for the CLSII).....and quite frankly would buy a mini monitor for my bathroom for shower music, but thats it.
-Flo
PS: I dont agree with Johns opinion either but you all need to stop this silly BS and give credit to RGA and John!
-
WhAt?!?!? YOU recommend other speakers?
...err, maybe in a half-assed "if you can't buy/find A.N." sort of way :^) There is always an underlying negative associated with the other recommendations. I believe you know what I mean...
I wouldn't comment on the Revel line until you have actually heard them... good audio suggestion, eh? I know they represent the "big machine" you dislike so much, but c'mon! One can't pontificate. I also have owned a pair of Peter Snell Snells... they were flat-out bad. I'm not guessing, that's my opinion based upon owning. My M20s aren't perfect (natch), but were better to me for $2K (and sometimes $4K) than anything I have heard... and I have a LOT of brands in my area to listen to. Boy, when I finally DO get to PA (Philly area) those Audio Notes better blow me away...lol. My local dealer dumped them.
I have, in the past, agreed with much of what you have said... politics included. Audio wise, I believe in hearing before commenting.
-
1 Attachment(s)
I'm a dealer too!!
but I can't tell you what I sell...or where.....but witout "tooting" my own horn my itmes are the best north of south america!! did I say "tooting'?...what I meant to say is...ah...well...ah...I gotta run!!
lol, Pogue
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C
...err, maybe in a half-assed "if you can't buy/find A.N." sort of way :^) There is always an underlying negative associated with the other recommendations. I believe you know what I mean...
I wouldn't comment on the Revel line until you have actually heard them... good audio suggestion, eh? I know they represent the "big machine" you dislike so much, but c'mon! One can't pontificate. I also have owned a pair of Peter Snell Snells... they were flat-out bad. I'm not guessing, that's my opinion based upon owning. My M20s aren't perfect (natch), but were better to me for $2K (and sometimes $4K) than anything I have heard... and I have a LOT of brands in my area to listen to. Boy, when I finally DO get to PA (Philly area) those Audio Notes better blow me away...lol. My local dealer dumped them.
I have, in the past, agreed with much of what you have said... politics included. Audio wise, I believe in hearing before commenting.
Yes, i know what you mean and know that RGA has a certain aftertaste. But so do i, well everyone knows that i am biased ;) I just dont want a big splash fight like in the old days. I learned to accept him and i learned to accept everyones decision. But also i would not listen to anything other than Apogee personally, i can still recomend other brands that i think someone might like.
-Flo
PS: Good to know that someone agreed to my politics :p
-
my two buddies own the Revels
one of them has salons up front and studios in the rear...I'm not overly impressed...not at the price...but like you all kiddin aside to each his own. I'm all ears. BTW I've always enjoyed the NHT's line...I love the piano finish and the angles on some of the models....I never say never about equipment (ie I'll never buy anything but bla bla bla) and although my Prodigy's are the best I've ever had in my home...but who knows...only the shadow knows!!
Pogue
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
RGA,
Now that is rambling, the man said he does not care for your opinion and then you proceed with five extra paragraphs of jive :confused: . :D
PS: Stay true to your signature line, Ignore the press. ;)
Constantine Soo isn't the press. He's an audiophile writer who umm bought the speaker.
-
It's funny because virtually every person in this thread is virtually a polar opposite in their take on what the right sound should be. We have opne panel owner who doesn;t like the panels of another, we have a guy selling a new sub satellite as the panacea of greatness, another stadfast on the usual standmount etc.
I am not about to convince or try and convince others of my preference. Jimmy is not to far off in that I compare other speakers to Audio Note or in relation to them so I typically note thir weaknesses or strengths in relation to them. That is not surprising when after 4 years of auditions I feel I chose the best of the ones I had heard. And so too should others be doing the same. I sure will say try and find AN first and then to my second and third choice. One reason for that is there are not a ton of dealers and it was a stroke of fluke that I ever found them. I don't tout my second and third choices because if they had been closer I would have bought them in year 1 or 2 of auditioning and not held off and held off because I wasn't completely impressed. I have a tough time suggesting speakers that while I like a great deal that I also know I would not really have liked to buy myself. And that is a very big deal - I like ver much the Dane 42 and it's my second choice to the Audio note AX Two in the price class. It's really only my second choice due to power demands and non tube friendliness and the space it needs. Sound for sound in my short term listening sessions with both they're close enough. But the Dane won't be able to use the amps I think are better sounding and the fatigue factor takes out the fun of listening so it's my second choice. The big disadvantage with Audio Note speakers K, J and E are that they in a way have the reverse problem the Danes have in that they really are overly sesnitive to the ancilliary gear - they don't allow for mixing and matching as well as some others. And they are not going to WOW people in a short duration store demo. But then if a speaker is WOWING chances are it's doing something wrong in my view.
-
Um, while you guys are on a truce, what do all of you think of the KEF speakers?
Not to hijack this thread or anything.
-
RGA:
Your statment about one panel owner who doesnt like other panels is wrong. Just like you i like one panel better than the others, same goes for your AN. You like one box better than the other ;) Thats because they are all different!
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Um, while you guys are on a truce, what do all of you think of the KEF speakers?
Not to hijack this thread or anything.
Good build quality, innovative and quite underrated in the box realm.
-Flo
PS: Dont worry about the thread, this isnt about a 800 anymore :cool:
-
Kef
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
RGA:
Your statment about one panel owner who doesnt like other panels is wrong. Just like you i like one panel better than the others, same goes for your AN. You like one box better than the other ;) Thats because they are all different!
I love KEF.....like a smooth brandy....been around for more than a day...and will be around for years to come. the 104's are great speakers in the used realm.
Peace, Pogue
-
I'm not exactly sure...
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
It's funny because virtually every person in this thread is virtually a polar opposite in their take on what the right sound should be. We have opne panel owner who doesn;t like the panels of another, we have a guy selling a new sub satellite as the panacea of greatness, another stadfast on the usual standmount etc.
I am not about to convince or try and convince others of my preference. Jimmy is not to far off in that I compare other speakers to Audio Note or in relation to them so I typically note thir weaknesses or strengths in relation to them. That is not surprising when after 4 years of auditions I feel I chose the best of the ones I had heard. And so too should others be doing the same. I sure will say try and find AN first and then to my second and third choice. One reason for that is there are not a ton of dealers and it was a stroke of fluke that I ever found them. I don't tout my second and third choices because if they had been closer I would have bought them in year 1 or 2 of auditioning and not held off and held off because I wasn't completely impressed. I have a tough time suggesting speakers that while I like a great deal that I also know I would not really have liked to buy myself. And that is a very big deal - I like ver much the Dane 42 and it's my second choice to the Audio note AX Two in the price class. It's really only my second choice due to power demands and non tube friendliness and the space it needs. Sound for sound in my short term listening sessions with both they're close enough. But the Dane won't be able to use the amps I think are better sounding and the fatigue factor takes out the fun of listening so it's my second choice. The big disadvantage with Audio Note speakers K, J and E are that they in a way have the reverse problem the Danes have in that they really are overly sesnitive to the ancilliary gear - they don't allow for mixing and matching as well as some others. And they are not going to WOW people in a short duration store demo. But then if a speaker is WOWING chances are it's doing something wrong in my view.
...what you mean by "wowing" at first blush, but I do look for something that has good bass and dynamics when cost and size is considered. I suppose one could say these aspects are "wowing". Are these BAD things to look for? Not quite sure what you mean.
And sure, it should sound open and resolving, getting texture correct. "Wow"! That piano key had some weight to it! I could get excited about this as well. Once again, not a bad thing, IMO.
I'm not a big fan of relying on store demoes either, but it's usually good enough for me to norrow down what I want to take home and try... the Dyn 1.3 were my runner-up. Both of these sounded quite different once I got them home. I agree in that the Audience line are pretty good... they have nice body and a pleasing "warmth" to them.
And Pogue - if yer a readin'...
I have never heard the top Revels... only up to the F50s. I have heard that they need careful attention to set-up and ancillaries. You are right, though... between $10 and $20K is a lotta coin for a pair of speakers. I thought the F50s were beautiful (err... to listen to, not so much look at). A local dealer got rid of his 801s in for them. I would choose them as well, saving $4.5K.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Constantine Soo isn't the press. He's an audiophile writer who umm bought the speaker.
The same Constantine Soo that wrote this :eek: . Try a better line next time :cool: .
-
Did you post that to prove him wrong about the reviewer part?
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
The same Constantine Soo that wrote this :eek: . Try a better line next time :cool: .
Yes and the same guy who ALSO bought these ones as well. He runs a web-site but that does not make him a journalist. If i start a web-site and post my reviews of speakers does that make me a member of the press? He also bought several other loudspeakers that he also likes such as speakers from Apogee, Elac, Klipschorn, Celestion, and Genesis.
He sure has deeper pockets than I.
-
Neat he has the very first Duetta!
-Flo
-
Wowing tends to come from bright and overexagerrated systems -- the best way to outperform the other guy's speaker is to jack up the highs and add a big midnbass wollop so when in short term A/B sessions in most stereo selling outlets they standout as more exciting. And they are more exciting and even more-so on home theater demos in the short term.
My very first audition of Audio Note didn't impress me. And i discovered this doing a search way way back on these archived forums. I was reviewing the Reference 3a MM De Capo back then and reviewed a Set of Paradigms and B&W CDM 9NT and said that one speaker I was not impressed with was from some company called Audio Note (The E) :D so uneventful that I didn't even bother to review them. but then i listened for such a short time that I was not really being fair. http://archive.audioreview.com/00/0EF8D185.php
What a difference giving something a second chance can make or a fair chance can make eh?
The Audio Note is not a wow speaker with most pop/rock music because there is so much dynamic compresssion. I have often said that rock and pop is presented well in that it's not annoying in the treble -- but it does tend to sound rather uninspired that good jazz and classical recordings and some few good rock and pop have no issue with. I have made a few mixed albums to illustrate how wide the discrepency IS and should be on systems from recording to recording. Many and most speakers I hear do not show the differences of these recordings very well and the ones I've made include some downloaded 128bit rate versions. The idea is to have something that presents it accurately rather than the way one would like it to sound. And that is troublesome in itself because I hear far more of the recording process in a Motley Crue Dr. Feelgood Album on my Audio Note set-up than maybe I would like to hear and thus the less resolute systems can sound more "fun" because the speaker noise adds a kind of ambience which is not always a bad thing for this kind of music or for movie special effects. but it's a disaster when it's added to brass and violin or some female vocals.
My last audition of the E at Soundhounds - there was a fellow in listening to one of his rock discs and was questioning the bass response (not getting the midbass hump he was used to getting). I don't recall the rock disc as I was not familiar with it. He liked the sound but wanted more impact bass. He wandered off to listen to some other speakers in the other room -- I put on a few discs the store had - one I believe was Loreena McKennit and a track called Prologue (not 100% sure this was the one but I think so) Anyway whatever disc it was had a considerable dynamic bass line that really pounds out into the room -- this bloke came back in to check it out and was wondering why his rock disc had a "transistery' sound while this other disc blew him out the door.
You can be wowed if it's on the disc and I suspect it's a reason that AN recommend you don;t bring discs you're "used to" because one tends to be "used to" thgeir discs being presented the way their home system presents it and any deviation from the way they think it oughta sound will seem wrong from the new system. See "CbyC."
Few people though ever have the time or inclination to even try such an alternate way of auditioning -- I read Bob Neil have a very similar reaction to one of AN's cd players versus his reference Naim Audio CD Player. He was so used to the way the Naim stamped it's presence on every disc that it's tough to swallow when another player does not. But in a short listening session the one that is big and bold is the one that can wow better than the one that is say delicate and more insightful
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
Neat he has the very first Duetta!
-Flo
he has the Duetta Sigs -- see if one looks at his speaker list he compares them all to each other and notes each speakers strengths in relation to the other speakers. And I think we could all learn to be a bit more objective and less "my choice is the only right choice or approach." As Constantine points out that there is a variety of good choices and from his sample of speakers quite a diverse group.
I have tried to learn that while I still think my choice is the best one (and it is the best one for me) that not everyone else is going to agree. Constantine seems to have a much more "live and let live" approach to speaker evaluations - which doesn't mean he's right be he's more open to different approaches than most, including myself I think.
And from my prior post my first session with the E was not good so another go around with some more panels might change my view of those as well.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
he has the Duetta Sigs -- see if one looks at his speaker list he compares them all to each other and notes each speakers strengths in relation to the other speakers. And I think we could all learn to be a bit more objective and less "my choice is the only right choice or approach." As Constantine points out that there is a variety of good choices and from his sample of speakers quite a diverse group.
I have tried to learn that while I still think my choice is the best one (and it is the best one for me) that not everyone else is going to agree. Constantine seems to have a much more "live and let live" approach to speaker evaluations - which doesn't mean he's right be he's more open to different approaches than most, including myself I think.
And from my prior post my first session with the E was not good so another go around with some more panels might change my view of those as well.
Like i said, the old Dueatta. The First revision of the Duetta and build wise and soundwise the worst Duetta. The best one being the Duetta 2 MKII Reference Edition. Still kicks ass tough.
-Flo
PS: Panels are very different and sound very different from each other. Also they are highly picky on driving electronics and positioning by inches. Too give you a start about panel bass...my DIVA was measured yesterday in my room at -1db at 23Hz and output below 20. Panels can have serious bass and dynamics.
-
I like to bring some of my own discs because that's what I'm familiar with and one needs a point of reference. Nothing shows off the difference in a component like putting it your own system though.
I brought the Sheffield Labs James Newton Howard & Friends to a store one time and heard it played on a Rotel system. That's what formed my opinion of Rotel, finding them laid back and sluggish sounding. Anyone familiar with this disc should realize it is quite snappy and dynamic. So sometimes it is helpful to have your own point of reference. The salesman suggested that my equipment may have scued my opinion, that my gear was too fast. This CD was used by IASCA as a reference in car audio contests and used as a demo by many of my friends who are in audio sales and I'm reasonably sure this recording is snappy and dynamic.
I can also remember being in the shoes of the guy RGA described, the first time I walked into a truely high end audio store with my Great White CD and had the guy play it through a Krell system driving a $25k pair of Dynaudio speakers I remember thinking "where's the mid-bass, this isn't so great" and then the guy put the Paula Cole CD in, which I hadn't heard before, and the first track had some incredible low end, and my jaw dropped in amazement. I felt like an earthquake hit the building.
Flo- you and I must have totally different characteristics we listen for, you dislike 2 of my favorite brands, Dynaudio and Martin Logan.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by thepogue
I love KEF.....like a smooth brandy....been around for more than a day...and will be around for years to come. the 104's are great speakers in the used realm.
Peace, Pogue
Cool, Thanks.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
Good build quality, innovative and quite underrated in the box realm.
-Flo
PS: Dont worry about the thread, this isnt about a 800 anymore :cool:
Thank you
-
Well, this is a different...
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Wowing tends to come from bright and overexagerrated systems -- the best way to outperform the other guy's speaker is to jack up the highs and add a big midnbass wollop so when in short term A/B sessions in most stereo selling outlets they standout as more exciting. And they are more exciting and even more-so on home theater demos in the short term.
My very first audition of Audio Note didn't impress me. And i discovered this doing a search way way back on these archived forums. I was reviewing the Reference 3a MM De Capo back then and reviewed a Set of Paradigms and B&W CDM 9NT and said that one speaker I was not impressed with was from some company called Audio Note (The E) :D so uneventful that I didn't even bother to review them. but then i listened for such a short time that I was not really being fair. http://archive.audioreview.com/00/0EF8D185.php
What a difference giving something a second chance can make or a fair chance can make eh?
The Audio Note is not a wow speaker with most pop/rock music because there is so much dynamic compresssion. I have often said that rock and pop is presented well in that it's not annoying in the treble -- but it does tend to sound rather uninspired that good jazz and classical recordings and some few good rock and pop have no issue with. I have made a few mixed albums to illustrate how wide the discrepency IS and should be on systems from recording to recording. Many and most speakers I hear do not show the differences of these recordings very well and the ones I've made include some downloaded 128bit rate versions. The idea is to have something that presents it accurately rather than the way one would like it to sound. And that is troublesome in itself because I hear far more of the recording process in a Motley Crue Dr. Feelgood Album on my Audio Note set-up than maybe I would like to hear and thus the less resolute systems can sound more "fun" because the speaker noise adds a kind of ambience which is not always a bad thing for this kind of music or for movie special effects. but it's a disaster when it's added to brass and violin or some female vocals.
My last audition of the E at Soundhounds - there was a fellow in listening to one of his rock discs and was questioning the bass response (not getting the midbass hump he was used to getting). I don't recall the rock disc as I was not familiar with it. He liked the sound but wanted more impact bass. He wandered off to listen to some other speakers in the other room -- I put on a few discs the store had - one I believe was Loreena McKennit and a track called Prologue (not 100% sure this was the one but I think so) Anyway whatever disc it was had a considerable dynamic bass line that really pounds out into the room -- this bloke came back in to check it out and was wondering why his rock disc had a "transistery' sound while this other disc blew him out the door.
You can be wowed if it's on the disc and I suspect it's a reason that AN recommend you don;t bring discs you're "used to" because one tends to be "used to" thgeir discs being presented the way their home system presents it and any deviation from the way they think it oughta sound will seem wrong from the new system. See "CbyC."
Few people though ever have the time or inclination to even try such an alternate way of auditioning -- I read Bob Neil have a very similar reaction to one of AN's cd players versus his reference Naim Audio CD Player. He was so used to the way the Naim stamped it's presence on every disc that it's tough to swallow when another player does not. But in a short listening session the one that is big and bold is the one that can wow better than the one that is say delicate and more insightful
...RGA than I'm used to. In the last few paragraphs, you have touched on/stated the importance of the room, software, set-up, second chances, whatever moreso than the total of your last 500 posts :*) AND - you just the word "accurate"! Wasn't THAT a no-no?
I'll also agree that it's nice when a system doesn't beat you up on less than great recordings... CDs shouldn't drive you out of the room. I'm not sure these lesser speakers are brighter in the first place, it's just that they aren't so composed when the going gets tough. Like my Studio 60s... when you hear a GREAT disc, one could think "it can't get any better than this for $1K". On lesser software, the results aren't as good.
I do like to bring my own discs, though... I'm familiar with them. A dealer can make a certain unfamiliar (to you) speaker shine using whatever music they desire. You would at least have a reference. In the same fashion you use your speakers...
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Yes and the same guy who ALSO bought these ones as well. He runs a web-site but that does not make him a journalist. If i start a web-site and post my reviews of speakers does that make me a member of the press? He also bought several other loudspeakers that he also likes such as speakers from Apogee, Elac, Klipschorn, Celestion, and Genesis.
He sure has deeper pockets than I.
At the time of that review, he was writing for StereoTimes, so yes so he was a member of the press.
-
Yes but he did buy the speakers - did not know it was an actual hard print magazine??? Where do you buy a store copy?
Steven Rochlin was an audiophile and drummer who I believe started up enjoythemusic.com and became the chief editor where other audiophiles who felt like writing a review would submit them. Rochlin is not paid. Constantine Soo is not paid (to my knowledge). John Atkinson and Sam Tellig, Martin Colloms, and John Marks ARE paid and make profit.
Of course you are correct that one does not need to read a review nor should they base their opinion off one. Using a review to illustrate a different point though such as the way I have used it here is not to "prove" that you will like it but rather there are those who have many speakers and like a number of them. I could merely TELL you that I know of a person and you could think I made it up.
Of course none of it means that Mr. Soo is any more correct than any Joe blow off the street -- so on that the point is well taken. Even in a blind listening trial if you had 20 people and 18 chose the AN set-up that means that 2 did not or vice versa so until you're in it you can't know.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C
...RGA than I'm used to. In the last few paragraphs, you have touched on/stated the importance of the room, software, set-up, second chances, whatever moreso than the total of your last 500 posts :*) AND - you just the word "accurate"! Wasn't THAT a no-no?
I'll also agree that it's nice when a system doesn't beat you up on less than great recordings... CDs shouldn't drive you out of the room. I'm not sure these lesser speakers are brighter in the first place, it's just that they aren't so composed when the going gets tough. Like my Studio 60s... when you hear a GREAT disc, one could think "it can't get any better than this for $1K". On lesser software, the results aren't as good.
I do like to bring my own discs, though... I'm familiar with them. A dealer can make a certain unfamiliar (to you) speaker shine using whatever music they desire. You would at least have a reference. In the same fashion you use your speakers...
Accuracy as described in that essay and within the confines of it. One would have to agree on how much stock one puts into that definition. It can apply to any brand though and many other speakers may do very well. It just isn't about the speakers though there are symibotic relationship with the ancillaries and room. I usually don't post short duration listening sessions or first time listening sessions precisely because that can be a bad first impression or bad system match. I have done so since but I am sure to be upfront when I do like I was with my B&W Diamond session. Usually, as with a number of toher speakers i have listened to them on a few noteworthy systems and in at least two different rooms and for at least a few different tracks of music that I do know fairly well.
That of course runs counter intuitive to AN's CbyC method. Trouble is their method takes a long time and like you I'm not entirely trusting of dealers who may choose the music that the given speakers excel at. I don't want a speaker that covers over weaknesses but I also don;t want one that latches on to a minor problem and iover blow it so that it is totally unlistenable -- such a speaker may overblow a well recorded album but overblowing something that is well recorded won't likely make it sound terrible but give you a wow factor. But then it boils down to taste and if this is what one likes then go for it.
This realization is precisely why I have begun to think about easing my way off the internet. Getting caught up in the subjective argument is ike arguing the Schindler's List is a better movie than Ace Ventura Pet Detective --- which was also a tiresome argument which is why I no longer post at Rottentomatoes.
I have listened to a number of Paradigm/B&W speakers over the years and I found something that I felt bettered handedly anything I had heard from other makers. So trying to convey that to people who may not know about them was the intent. Especially a little plug for the dealer that carried all of them I felt that hey don't trust me just go down there and directly A/B them and see if you agree with me. Here's some reviews X Y and Z knowing many only respond to press first. Unfortunately I wrote in a very heavy handed way blasting some of the other brands in the process where I should have just discussed the merits of the AN speaker I heard and left it at that. Live and learn eh?
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
Well if you ever come to Victoria Canada (take the ferry from Seattle) drop by Soundhounds in Victoria -- it would be nice to actually hear some of these in the exact same listening rooms with an extensive amount of gear. There is also the Audio Show in Vegas in January -- All the companies generally attend -- Audio Note will have two rooms this year so I am trying to pull the coinage together to go.
If you came up to Nanaimo (an hour notrh of Victoria i'd let you listen to my set-up...but I'd rather "pit" them against something esopecially when one is unfamiliar with the room acoustics (same room then all speakers have the same/similar advantage disadvantage if approprioate size room).
Soundhounds has several fellows scope out new stuff to carry from CES and I have mentioned Von Sweikert as something to go listen to as well and Spender. Neither seems well represented in BC.
Hey, RGA - I just saw your post. This thread had gotten a little long for my attention span. Thanks, for the invite! I hope to take the family to the Pacific NW one day.
I keep up with the schedules for the different home entertainment shows, too. I missed the Rocky Mountain show by a month or so. Oh well, a little better planning on my part might get me to one in NY or Vegas.
-
The one in Vegas is usually held or so I'm tol early January -- last year it was around the 6th. I graduate in December and I'd like to give this to myself as a grad gift and a Birthday present (Jan 11th). I will have to check my budget and see if I can sneak in with the Soundhounds crew if one of them doesn't go.
-
Rga
Did you see on my DAC thread I picked up an Audio Note 1.1x? It hasn't arrived yet. Once I've listened enough to form an opinion I will probably start a new thread with my review. I am really anxious to hear it, they have some interesting trademark techniques in their DAC's.
-
Should be interesting, Krell and AN is about as much of a difference as AN and Apogee.
Keep us posted ;-)
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Did you see on my DAC thread I picked up an Audio Note 1.1x? It hasn't arrived yet. Once I've listened enough to form an opinion I will probably start a new thread with my review. I am really anxious to hear it, they have some interesting trademark techniques in their DAC's.
It will be interesting how the DAC does in such a very dissimilar voiced set-up.
-
I have the Audio Note 1.1x in my system. This was a demo unit and when I received it the guy forgot to send me a BNC to RCA adaptor for the digital input. Talking about an excitement killer. By the time I hooked it up and noticed it was too late to go out and find one. I'm using a Radio Shack Gold until the one shipped arrives. I'm also using Transparent cables off other gear until I decide if I want to stick with them.
Anyway first impressions, I like it. It's the first digital source with RCA hook ups that gave the Krell's XLR balanced a run for it's money. First let me say in other comparisons I've done to the Krell I firmly decided the 280cd is a great sounding unit and even at retail of $3,250.00 a good value. With that being said, comparing it to the 1.1x makes the 280cd sound sort of glaring. The 1.1x has a very nice high end that decays even slower than the Krell. I like the 280cd better for drums and it makes things sound somewhat larger than the 1.1x. The 280cd has more impact and gives things a harder sound where the 1.1x conveys a softer presentation without sounding artificial, sluggish or valed. The 1.1x also seems to give music more of a groove or sense of rhythym. The 1.1x is not as euphoric or fleshy as I was hoping but that may be due to running it through solid state pre and power amp and different brand cables may make a difference. But I don't plan to experiment much with cables unless I can find some loaners. Both DACs seem to be equal as far as revealing information off the disc. They have different presentations but I haven't heard anything from a disc that the other unit didn't show as well. If I had to choose only one I'm actually leaning toward the Audio Note. This unit has been described to me as "organic" which didn't mean anything to me but when you hear the unit you understand. It sounds so good I think I could for go the strenghs the 280cd brings to the table for the strenths of the 1.1x. The 1.1x is far from sounding digital yet it does not have any of the stereotype tube weaknesses, the highs are not rolled off, the bass is not as tight and forceful as Krell but it's not mushy or tubby either. It would be interesting to see if the bass integrity was as good through a tube amp. The 1.1x is a very nice piece. I'd love the hear their better DAC's and even some of their gear but once you are used to 250 wpc of Krell power I know a single ended amp isn't going to cut it with me. If I ever got serious to convert my system I'd have to look at some larger powered tube models.
RGA, you should drop one of the 1.1x into your system. For some one who seems to be able to hear the difference in gear I'm surprised you don't have a better digital source. Trust me when I tell you there is a difference in the sound of cdp or DAC's. Cambridge is no slouch but they are not in the league with AN.
|