I got my Swan Diva 6.1s....** Review **

[Geoffcin]

I'm gonna catch a lot of heat for this post, but I simply had to speak my mind.
.

When the member posted his review to the AR Speaker Discussion Forum, rather than the AR Review section, he invited argument on his contentions. If it's too much for him to bear to hear skepticism, then he's more than welcome to remove the post, and stick with the correct procedure; which is to post his review to the AR review section.

[kexodusc]

I'm gonna catch a lot of heat for this post, but I simply had to speak my mind.

No heat needed for speaking your mind here, it shows you're thinking.

First, I'm not accusing the original poster of exagerating or lying. Since I haven't heard the Diva 6.1's I can't comment directly on them. They look great, and likely sound good, but when we start comparing to B&W designs like the 704/804 which ave exellent mid/high end integration, we need to get a reality check.

Here's my problem: the drivers on the on the Diva 6.1 are rather cheap and can be purchased from Parts Express for $300 - retail, for both speakers. The tweeter for instance on the 6.1 is a $12 driver -retail.

Again, I've heard good speakers using these level of parts, but not great ones, and speakers built with drivers in that price class tend to sound dramatically less even and more choppy than the proprietary driver designs that B&W uses, or the best DIY drivers like ScanSpeak, etc.

Looks like you've stumbled across something...what exactly is going on here? $300 in drivers doesn't sound like very much, especially in a $1000 speaker like the Swan 6.1...where's the rest of the $1000 at? Lets be conservative and say that they can build the 6.1's for $150 in drivers (actual cost), and another $200 in cabinetry/parts. Probably not even that much, but we'll be generous. The MSRP on these was over $1500 not too long ago as I recall...The original paid around $900 for them. There's a good indication of the markup again.

One of my favorite speakers is the Focus Audio FS-788. It uses the Scan-Speak Revelator tweeter and an excellent 7" Eton woofer. Price wise, it's about $5300 or so. Soundwise, it's a good step up on the excellent B&W Nautilus 803 IMO, another $5000 speaker. These are both two serious speakers in the $5000 range (street price would be lower for both but let's ignore that).
The drivers in the FS-788 would be about $800 to buy from Madisound. An excellent quality crossover would be bring the materials up to $1000 per pair. The beautiful Burr Oak piano finishes and solid cabinetry would be about another $300 in cost. Then you have labor, cost of professional tools, R&D etc to account for...possibly $1700 per speaker. Yet the retail price is over 3 times this.

An experienced DIY-er and I built my towers using a Scan-speak tweeter and Vifa woofers. We spent about $1000 or so in parts. I was very skeptical of what we'd end up with, but he just kept smiling the whole time. My Paradigm Studio 40's were $1100 or so at the time, and I was hoping they'd be as good as those. The Studio's were outmatched in every way. I'll be quite conservative and say I'd have to spend $3000 or $4000 to buy speakers that sound as nice as these (I just wish I didn't finish these with industrial carpet, maybe some day I'll revisit that).. What's more, the 2nd and 3rd designs I built were done for under $250 in parts each, and I ended up replacing my Studio 40's and 20's with a complete HT based on these designs. Crazy to think, eh? Not really. A pair of speakers took me about 10 hours or so of labour. At my salary that would shoot the costs up considerably. And I didn't do any R&D work at all, borrowing on existing designs.

Let's say to chop down on the labor and material costs, you moved operations to China or some other Asian country...you'd save a good chunk right off the bat. This is what Swan, and many others have done. It's allowing them to do 2 things. Sell the drivers to support their core business (Hi-Vi is a driver manufacturer), and use competitive advantages and natural complementary business operations to enter higher margin markets (speaker building).

Suddenly, you've got great sounding speakers in the $1000 range that can afford to sell cheap and still make money while penetrating the market.

Which brings me to the conclusion that if the 6.1's can hold their own against the 704's, then B&W is yanking us and I'll buy the parts for the Diva 6.1 tomorrow. I'm not saying it's not the case, but being reasonably skeptical. The dark side of me hope's it's true

I think comparing the 6.1's to the 804's might be a bit of a stretch, and I suspect even the 704's are probably a step up on these, but don't doubt for one minute these sound better than many other $1500-$2000 speakers. Value wise, I think it's possible they are better than the 704's.

Many driver manufacturers are making the jump to speaker building. Selling drivers became far to competitive with the HT boom, which really saw speaker sales soar. This brought margin's down and put a lot of pressure on smaller companies to concentrate in niche markets, or look for other opportunities. Dynaudio was one of the more recent to abandon selling OEM drivers to the masses, now they build excellent speakers.
Audax is another getting out of the game...you can see their drivers on the Ascend Acoustic speakers (another company that's really making people re-evaluate how much speakers "should" cost).

As the "proprietary drivers'....I'm quite skeptical about this approach. I'm not sure B&W or Paradigm have the capacity to invest as much effort into R&D as some of the larger driver companies. Nor would they have the economies of scale or minimal overhead costs. However, I think they can get close enough that it becomes worth it to them to build their own drivers at higher cost than buying a lower cost driver with mark-up built into it...more control over the production and design can't be a bad thing.

Incidentally, I recently repaired a friends old Paradigm 7SE's. Paradigm wanted to charge me $65 for the Vifa tweeter. Madisound sold the same tweeter for $19. The Paradigm dealer was dumb enough to give me the Vifa model number, and away I went.

I've seen this same trend happen in the subwoofer market too. Companies like Adire Audio, Ascendant, Dayton, and ACI are also selling finished subs to support their driver business (in ACI's case they've made the transition I think). These subs are much, much better than similar priced commercial designs I've heard, to the magnitude of 2 or 3 times in some cases. Going the DIY-route can further this value.

I think this is becoming a trend in audio, as we're seeing the DIY approach grow exponentially thanks to the internet, and more driver manufacturers get in to building their own brand of speakers. When you think about it, it makes perfect sense. Anytime you have an industry with high margins, competitors flock to it. The natural participants would be driver manufacturers. I think this bodes well for the future if it keeps the traditional companies like B&W in check as far as prices go, and pushes the quality of the product.

[thepogue]

I'm sure all that DIY stuff is pretty correct as far as doing it much much cheaper...but I'm sure that could be said for any other items - if you build it yourself you can save tons of $$$ but from my perspective that's not even an option. I have 6 tools at home, two you bang wiff, two you cut things with (fingers and the like) and one you measure with and the last I'm not quite sure what it does (last time I used it I held open a door with it and it worked quite well). I can read very well so I guess I could go on-line and download the information I needed to build a set of speakers (or whatever) then go buy the tools I needed. I have no question that it would take me months what it would take a handy person could do in days. I'm also sure I'd have to buy plenty of extra material for the mistakes I'll be making. Now I'd need to take time off of work to get the project done in FY '05 (or '06 or '07) or miss overtime and after 27 years in the fire service...I do get paid fairly well...hmmm...subtract the cost of that...add a pretty large frustration fee....ear plugs for when my wife is carrying-on about how "I don't know what the bleep I'm doing"...a least one trip to the local walk-in clinic for a few stitches...stain remover for the mess Ill make...two pair jeans and 4 tee shirts I'll destroy by staining, bleeding on or ripping...hmm...well...I think @ $1000 they are a steal!!! but I know I'm not the normal guy I'm just one of the few that admit that a DIY would be unwise (for me)....

Just one other I'll point about the Paradigm driver....even I could put that in...so that's a given..but heck...the auto industry is chock full of this type of thing...that's why the aftermarket parts industry is a multi-million $$$ industry..

SO I say....go go go speaker guys....build'em and they will come!!!

Pogue

[abstracta]

One of my favorite speakers is the Focus Audio FS-788. It uses the Scan-Speak Revelator tweeter and an excellent 7" Eton woofer.

The Scan-Speak driver costs $179.00 and the 7" Etons go for around $130 or more. At least that's the price I paid on the four Eton's I have in my garage right now. I was using them for a DIY 2-way project but gave up because the Eton's die like a shot duck below 130hz. Not sure how you got them to work...{shrug}. Anyways, Scan-Speak build drivers that are amongst the best in the world, while the Diva uses a $12 tweeter. I don't care if you put the Scan-Speak drivers in a styrofoam cooler and secure them with duct tape - they'll sound light-years better than a $12 tweeter, and that's my point. Hi-Vi builds low to barely mid-fi gear, and one of the dominant rules of speaker engineering is that you can save money with labor in China building cabinets, and maybe using a lower end woofer or mid woofer, but tweeters and vocal mid-ranges are purely the result of their build.

ddd

As the "proprietary drivers'....I'm quite skeptical about this approach.

I'm not, and lets please stop comparing Paradigm to B&W.



[/QUOTE]

[abstracta]

One of my favorite speakers is the Focus Audio FS-788. It uses the Scan-Speak Revelator tweeter and an excellent 7" Eton woofer.

The Scan-Speak driver costs $179.00 and the 7" Etons go for around $130 or more. At least that's the price I paid on the four Eton's I have in my garage right now. I was using them for a DIY 2-way project but gave up because the Eton's die like a shot duck below 130hz. Not sure how you got them to work in a two way because of this problem...{shrug}.

Anyways, Scan-Speak build drivers that are amongst the best in the world, Eton isn't exactly Walmart either, while the Diva uses a $12 tweeter. I don't care if you put the Scan-Speak drivers in a styrofoam cooler and secure them with duct tape - they'll sound light-years better than a $12 tweeter, and that's my point. Hi-Vi builds low to barely mid-fi gear, and one of the dominant rules of speaker engineering is that you can save money with labor in China building cabinets, and maybe using a lower end woofer or mid woofer, but tweeters and vocal mid-ranges are purely the result of their build and determine the main character of the speaker. So let me repeat; the Diva 6.1 is using a $12 tweeter and $45 midrange. *If*, and I repeat *IF* they can hold a candle to the B&W's let alone be in the same room with them, then Hi-Vi is selling world class drivers at cost or well below cost, and Scan-Speak is ripping us off.

As the "proprietary drivers'....I'm quite skeptical about this approach.

I'm not, and lets please stop comparing Paradigm to B&W.

I have no arguement with DIY'ers building killer speakers that rival if not surpass the big guys. *But*, those really good DIY designs I've heard *all* use Scan-Speak level drivers, or better. They don't use $12 tweeters, and that's my point.

[abstracta]

I'm sure all that DIY stuff is pretty correct as far as doing it much much cheaper...but I'm sure that could be said for any other items - if you build it yourself you can save tons of $$$

You can build your own box and save a ton of money. You *cannot* "build" your own drivers, and drivers are what I'm concentrating on.

You can make a cheap box out of plywood, put world class drivers in it, and it will sound good. You can build a world class box with Amish slave labor with 50 laquer coats of piano finish, put $12 drivers in it, and it will still sound bad.

[thepogue]

guess I'll have to return that other tool I just bought from Home Depot...and it looked so simple 18 peices...A lil glue here and there...couple taps of maxwells silver hammer...and blam

oh well....

Pogue

[kexodusc]

I'm sure all that DIY stuff is pretty correct as far as doing it much much cheaper...but I'm sure that could be said for any other items - if you build it yourself you can save tons of $$$ but from my perspective that's not even an option. I have 6 tools at home, two you bang wiff, two you cut things with (fingers and the like) and one you measure with and the last I'm not quite sure what it does (last time I used it I held open a door with it and it worked quite well). I can read very well so I guess I could go on-line and download the information I needed to build a set of speakers (or whatever) then go buy the tools I needed. I have no question that it would take me months what it would take a handy person could do in days. I'm also sure I'd have to buy plenty of extra material for the mistakes I'll be making. Now I'd need to take time off of work to get the project done in FY '05 (or '06 or '07) or miss overtime and after 27 years in the fire service...I do get paid fairly well...hmmm...subtract the cost of that...add a pretty large frustration fee....ear plugs for when my wife is carrying-on about how "I don't know what the bleep I'm doing"...a least one trip to the local walk-in clinic for a few stitches...stain remover for the mess Ill make...two pair jeans and 4 tee shirts I'll destroy by staining, bleeding on or ripping...hmm...well...I think @ $1000 they are a steal!!! but I know I'm not the normal guy I'm just one of the few that admit that a DIY would be unwise (for me)....

Just one other I'll point about the Paradigm driver....even I could put that in...so that's a given..but heck...the auto industry is chock full of this type of thing...that's why the aftermarket parts industry is a multi-million $$$ industry..

SO I say....go go go speaker guys....build'em and they will come!!!

Pogue

Oh man, that was good. A few years back I WAS that guy...I took a few wood hobby courses and had some really handy (and patient) friends who took me under their wing...owning a home has made it necessary for me too.

You're right though...DIY does require an aweful lot of tools, and some time. If I was to pay myself my salary over the time I spend on a project, the cost benefit would be considerably less. However, as I said, I look at this as a hobby. I love working with wood and electronics, and I'm frequently puttering around when I have free time and I'm not at the gym. I work in investment management, plugging numbers into financial models, economic forecasts, etc, it's nice to work with my hands after staring at numbers and graphs all day. I find it quite relaxing, and then rewarding when all is said and done. Made perfect sense to combine two of my interests.

But not everyone needs a pile of tools or a ton of time to DIY either. There are dozens of excellent kits in various price ranges that can be assembled inside an hour and still over superior value. You can buy pre-fab cabinets that look excellent, and you're then basically assembling a speaker.

I know many people also have more free time on weekends, evenings, etc, than they have extra cash lying around. If this is the case, and you don't mind a project, then DIY can offer a lot of bang for the buck. I couldn't justify buying the Focus Audio FS-788's or 803's buy I could build my own over the course of a few weeks in my spare time.

I also think there's a point where DIY just becomes impractical too, and like anything else, diminishing returns start to apply. That's probably why you don't see many designs costing more than $3000 or $4000.

[kexodusc]

I have no arguement with DIY'ers building killer speakers that rival if not surpass the big guys. *But*, those really good DIY designs I've heard *all* use Scan-Speak level drivers, or better. They don't use $12 tweeters, and that's my point.

First off, Scan-Speak is really more at the top end of the cheaper drivers in the DIY world, nowhere near being among the best in the world.

Second, your point about the $12 cost of a tweeter in $1000 speaker just isn't a good or relevant point at all. The cost in a lot of tweeters isn't always for superior sound. Quite often it's for a lower Fs so you can mate it with a larger woofer. Good crossover topology can make a $12 tweeter sound better than a $100 tweeter. Easily. Probably not a $200 one, but you get my point. It takes some crossover work which is difficult, but caps and inductors are cheap, Revelator tweeters aren't.

Look at the drivers in the Athena FS speakers I've seen you speak highly off...That might be an $8 tweeter, maybe.

If the only DIY speakers you've heard ALL used Scan-Speak or better drivers (which Scan-Speak drivers by the way, the $12 Scan-Speaks?) then you just haven't heard any good DIY designs. Unfortunate for you. Scan-Speak is just one of many companies that make decent tweetsers. Morel, Dayton, Usher, North Creek, etc, all make excellent, inexpensive tweeters. You don't need an expensive tweeter to get good sound.

And if there was one shortcut I would make in a design, a $12 tweeter crossoved over at 4000Hz that really only handles the last 2 Octaves where the least important information exists would be it. Much better than $4 drivers in a lot of $200-$300 designs. Throw in a series notch filter, maybe pad the tweeter a bit and you can go a long way.

Most $1000-$2000 speakers I know of have $15-$25 tweeters in them, but these are mostly 2-way designs with higher crossover points than a 3-way would likely have. $12 seems more than reasonable at this price point - it wouldn't have to work nearly as hard.

I'm not saying a $12 tweeter is as good as a $200 Scan-speak, but many commercial designs in the $1000 and range use drivers in this ballpark and sound fine.
I've only heard 2 speakers with a $150 -$200 Revelator tweeter in it, but these made the B&W 803's sound broken. I doubt the tweeter in those is anywhere near as expensive.

As for the Eton's in your garage - I feel bad you have $500 worth of drivers sitting there doing nothing. Why did you buy them? What model? I could recommend a few books for you to read so you don't waste these excellent and highly regarded woofers. If not, I'd be interested in buying them since you aren't doing anything with them.

FYI - a lot of DIY-ers do make their own drivers - with good results.

[Jon Lane]

The drivers on the on the Diva 6.1 are rather cheap and can be purchased from Parts Express for $300 - retail, for both speakers. The tweeter for instance on the 6.1 is a $12 driver -retail.

Again, I've heard good speakers using these level of parts, but not great ones, and speakers built with drivers in that price class tend to sound dramatically less even and more choppy than the proprietary driver designs that B&W uses, or the best DIY drivers like ScanSpeak, etc.

Which brings me to the conclusion that if the 6.1's can hold their own against the 704's, then B&W is yanking us and I'll buy the parts for the Diva 6.1 tomorrow. I'm not saying it's not the case, but being reasonably skeptical. The dark side of me hope's it's true.

Just checked back to see if the thread was still alive and caught this. I won't give away details about competitor's designs, but the notion that Swan drivers are "cheap" is misled.

Swan/HiVi drivers are inexpensive, but are hardly cheap. Frankly, they're way underpriced at PE, at least in my estimation.

The dome tweeter alone is in the same class as the rest of the Danish style 28mm vented Neo/ferrofluid domes. Yes, they're that good. All Swan drivers are drafting-table designs and feature extensive FEA and nearly the best materials and techniques. Swan drivers easily have lowest-in-class distortion, and our sound, we think, demonstrates this.

As far as the premiere B&M brand's drivers, and as far as boutique drivers, there's reams of stuff I could say but won't. Suffice it to say that I'd gladly put the Swans drivers we use up against anything in class and probably anything at five times the cost. The fact that HiVi chooses to sell the raw bits for peanuts is simply no reflection on the relative quality itself. I guess when you're a $300,000,000 company and make parts entirely inhouse, you can go "cheap" if you want.

[Jon Lane]

The Scan-Speak driver costs $179.00 and the 7" Etons go for around $130 or more. At least that's the price I paid on the four Eton's I have in my garage right now. I was using them for a DIY 2-way project but gave up because the Eton's die like a shot duck below 130hz. Not sure how you got them to work...{shrug}. Anyways, Scan-Speak build drivers that are amongst the best in the world, while the Diva uses a $12 tweeter. I don't care if you put the Scan-Speak drivers in a styrofoam cooler and secure them with duct tape - they'll sound light-years better than a $12 tweeter, and that's my point. Hi-Vi builds low to barely mid-fi gear, and one of the dominant rules of speaker engineering is that you can save money with labor in China building cabinets, and maybe using a lower end woofer or mid woofer, but tweeters and vocal mid-ranges are purely the result of their build.

With all respect, the speaker industry -- as all of them -- has many secrets...especially the B&M business model and its real expenses, and the inevitable markups in any retail driver or system. Notice I said "driver".

Evidently Swan doesn't play that game.

Let's just say that you might be surprised at what a trip around the factories making many brands would reveal...

[ssabripo]

Abstracta.....you are somewhat right and somewhat wrong as well. I personally am a huge B&W fan, and always will be....kinda like I am always a bimmer fan (not necessarily because they are the best cars or not, mind you). When I was shopping around for my speakers, I really wanted some B&Ws but they were a little out of my price range....thus I started my investigation with Axiom/Rockets/Swan/paradigm/ etc as my baseline. I increased the budget just to try the bigger drivers, and as I mentioned in my review, the nautilus was the best sounding speaker I have tested thus far.....followed by the B&W 704 and the Swan 6.1s. i made it very clear that the 6.1s sound as good (not necessarily better, but overall equivalent) as the 704s..... now, add the difference in price (one 704 is more than the pair of swans) and you can see the choice was easy.

Part wise, you are also correct, that hi-vi research drivers are somewhat affordable, and that is in no means a testament that they suck....on the contrary, I think they are a pretty awesome bargain for what you get....believe me, i can attest to it.

So, did I or would I say that the swan 6.1 speakers are the best thing since sliced bread? NO, I would not.... but they are probably the best sounding floorstanding speakers under $1000!! if there is a better one out there, then please show it to me... Are they better than B&W? if price is an issue, YES! if you throw price aside, then I would say perhaps not, but it is hard to say...they sound so close.


Ps- Although I am new to this forum, I am an old timer in forums in general, thus my knowledge of the posting techniques! it also helps that I have a masters in Electrical Engineering...

[RGA]

Abstraca

Seriously have you heard the 704 -- I would not be the least bit surprised that many speaker makers could make a vastly superior sounding product for less money. They just are not very good loudspeakers IMO.

[kexodusc]

I agree with RGA on this one...I really like some B&W speakers but the 704 isn't one of them, not for the pricetag it carries.
And it re-enforces the notion that speaker cost and performance are very poorly correlated at best.