Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 54
  1. #1
    asdf bjornb17's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    El Paso, Texas
    Posts
    459

    How exactly does treble control work?

    Yeah yeah i know its a very simple question that i should probably know the answer to, but i dont :P I know it increases the treble of the speaker (duh), but how exactly does it go about doing this?

    Does increasing trebble just raise the high-frequency volume, or does it do something else?

  2. #2
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Anywhere but here...
    Posts
    13,243
    Quote Originally Posted by bjornb17
    Yeah yeah i know its a very simple question that i should probably know the answer to, but i dont :P I know it increases the treble of the speaker (duh), but how exactly does it go about doing this?

    Does increasing trebble just raise the high-frequency volume, or does it do something else?
    It will also send out X-mas cards to every member of your family. This is it's number one use.

    Oops, sorry. Couldn't hold that back.

    I'm not sure how it increases your treble. I know it has a variable resistor in it.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  3. #3
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Department of Heuristics and Research on Material Applications
    Posts
    9,025
    Hmmm, good question...never really thought about it before.
    I'm guessing it's similar to some guitars I've built. Your tone controls aren't actually boosting frequency bands (well, unless they're digital, but lets stick to analog), but rather applying different levels of cut. Similar to a speakers crossover, a properly calculated pot will use capacitors and inductors, and variable resistors to apply different levels of cut.

    With capacitors for example, their resistance changes with frequency. At low frequency, the impedance is very high, at high frequency the impedance is low...so your applying different levels of resistance to the signal as you increase the control.

    Short, non EE explanation. Hope I'm at least somewhat right.

  4. #4
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Nueva Jork
    Posts
    2,148

    Generally, it doesn't...

    Quote Originally Posted by bjornb17
    Yeah yeah i know its a very simple question that i should probably know the answer to, but i dont :P I know it increases the treble of the speaker (duh), but how exactly does it go about doing this?

    Does increasing trebble just raise the high-frequency volume, or does it do something else?
    ...most speaker treble controls are simply a "cut" filter...even though your control may say +6dB at max, it doesn't amplifiy anything. At max, the signal goes through unfettered, from that point through the mfr's. arbitrary 0dB point down to it's -6db lower level, it simply adds resistance...generally speaking of course...

    Of course, this refers to non-active loudspeakers powered by an outboard amp...

    jimHJJ(...Merry Christmas to all...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  5. #5
    Suspended markw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Noo Joisey. Youse got a problem wit dat?
    Posts
    4,659

    Well, being this is the speaker forum I'll answer from a speakers prespective.

    No, it does not increase treble. A speaker, being a passive device has no way to "increase" treble from the amp. It can only cut it.

    Now, the designer of the speaker may have designed it so that when it's in the middle of it's range it would provide what he feels is the most balanced sound. That way, you might be able to turn it all the way up or down to increase or decrease the apparant treble. It's still not "adding" to it.

    As to the electronics, I'll suggest you check out some books. It has to deal with resistors, capacitors and the like. First or second analog year AC circuits should cover it.

    And, as far as amps go, yes they CAN boost the treble and bass. Remember, they are not passive devices and have gain, which can be applied selectively.

  6. #6
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    6,883
    At the preamp level, I'm pretty sure that the treble controls will boost the signal. Part of the rationale behind the high end market's evolution into the current "thou shalt use no tone controls" edict that most self-described audiophiles follow is the belief that tone controls that add treble or bass also add distortion and raise the noise floor.

    Same thing goes for loudness switches, which can add noise to the signal (then again, their intended use is only during low level listening to compensate for our reduced hearing sensitivity with high and low frequencies at lower levels). This is the reason why on its two-channel amps Yamaha goes with a variable loudness contour rather than a signal boosting loudness switch -- because a variable loudness contour works by reducing the overall signal and while leaving the low and highs at an elevated level (raising the volume will raise the overall level and have the net effect of boosting the highs and lows without added noise).

    As others have pointed out, the level control pots that are found on some speakers have no way of applying any gain to the signal, so they would work by attenuating the incoming signal.

  7. #7
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    the belief that tone controls that add treble or bass also add distortion and raise the noise floor.
    Do you know of a perfect active gain stage?

    rw

  8. #8
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    6,883
    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Do you know of a perfect active gain stage?
    No. Do you know of a perfect speaker or room acoustical condition?

  9. #9
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    No. Do you know of a perfect speaker or room acoustical condition?
    I'm glad we agree upon what transcends "belief". I know of no perfect audio device.

    rw

  10. #10
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    So Cal
    Posts
    1,994
    So where do you guys have your controls at? Mine are +2 on bass and -2 on treble.
    Look & Listen

  11. #11
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    2,959
    The less parts in the system the better. The less sonic character the better. A "perfect" speaker doesnt exist, but you can get damn close but not if you run lets say a speaker with 3 different materials, resonances, uneven rooms, receivers with ten thousand parts and a poluted powergrif then you might as well use the tone controls

    In my opinion, the less crap the better.

    -Flo
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  12. #12
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by shokhead
    So where do you guys have your controls at? Mine are +2 on bass and -2 on treble.
    With my double pair of Advents in my vintage system, I keep the HF contour for the upper pair on "normal" and the lower pair on "decrease" (they have one more position - extended).

    With the Sound Labs transformers, bass flat, mid flat, and highs at about 2:00 (rotary pot). Sometimes to extend dynamic range, I'll drop the LF control a notch by 2 db.

    rw

  13. #13
    asdf bjornb17's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    El Paso, Texas
    Posts
    459
    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    No, it does not increase treble. A speaker, being a passive device has no way to "increase" treble from the amp. It can only cut it.

    Now, the designer of the speaker may have designed it so that when it's in the middle of it's range it would provide what he feels is the most balanced sound. That way, you might be able to turn it all the way up or down to increase or decrease the apparant treble. It's still not "adding" to it.

    As to the electronics, I'll suggest you check out some books. It has to deal with resistors, capacitors and the like. First or second analog year AC circuits should cover it.

    And, as far as amps go, yes they CAN boost the treble and bass. Remember, they are not passive devices and have gain, which can be applied selectively.
    Thanks for the input. I was actually referring to the treble control on the receiver. I guess i didnt mention that

  14. #14
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    2,959
    Tone Controls
    Generally the use of tone controls, we hope, will be unnecessary. Most quality speakers have been designed to deliver a flat frequency response and a well balanced sound reproduction. However, in some listening environments this balance may be distorted by room effects. Tone controls in this case can then be used to compensate for these problems.
    If you do need to turn the tone controls up, whether it is for room acoustics or personal taste, then it is worth noting the effect as far as output power and 'clipping' is concerned.
    Bass and treble controls adjust the level of a selected range of frequencies in addition to the volume control which adjusts the level at all frequencies. If an amplifier is already being driven at full power and the bass and treble is then turned up, the result is 'clipping' and likely failure of the speakers.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  15. #15
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Anywhere but here...
    Posts
    13,243
    So, it won't send out my cards? Ut oh. Uhm, I may be a little busy this weekend.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  16. #16
    AR Regular
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    214

    A point missed in this discussion.

    Of course, in a perfect world, with perfect recordings, tone controls should not be needed. My current system has no tone controls, but sometimes I miss them. My recorded materials are not all perfect. Some are very old, but not replaceable. Some of them are rare and have never been re-issued. There is a lot of background hiss or other distortion. The use of tone controls can make such sources more pleasant to listen to. I'm sorry, but I am not going to subscribe to some self imposed purist nonsense and throw out old but treasured recordings just because they do not conform to some idiot's idea of perfections. They may not be technically perfect, but some of them are artistically perfect. Sooner or later, I WILL re-introduce some form of tone cotrol just for the times when I want to listen to my treasured old recordings in order to cut out some extrenuous noise.

  17. #17
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    2,959
    It mostly comes down to personal choice. You either choose to the most accurate reproduction of whats on the source or you favor a altered sound to your liking. The editor of that article is correct that you can use it for room correction purposes. But by cutting down the treble or bass it also removes micro information in that area. Now, we know that most systems out there that are affordable will not reveal that information in the first place but i personally prefer the hiss and crackles and get a acurate reproduction then a sound i personally prefer.

    Its all about choice
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  18. #18
    AR Regular
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    214

    Once again you are taking a too

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    It mostly comes down to personal choice. You either choose to the most accurate reproduction of whats on the source or you favor a altered sound to your liking. The editor of that article is correct that you can use it for room correction purposes. But by cutting down the treble or bass it also removes micro information in that area. Now, we know that most systems out there that are affordable will not reveal that information in the first place but i personally prefer the hiss and crackles and get a acurate reproduction then a sound i personally prefer.

    Its all about choice
    rigid a position. I have some recordings which are so old and so worn out that the only way you can retrieve the musical information is by cutting out the background noise. One of these days when I have more time I will record them digitally and clean them up a bit, but until then, the only way you can even hear the music is by using tone controls. Well, not for the moment. My current set up won't let me do it.

  19. #19
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    2,959
    I can recommend a machiene that will flatten the records again if your interested.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  20. #20
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Cheshire
    Posts
    1,602
    Quote Originally Posted by StanleyMuso
    rigid a position. I have some recordings which are so old and so worn out that the only way you can retrieve the musical information is by cutting out the background noise. One of these days when I have more time I will record them digitally and clean them up a bit, but until then, the only way you can even hear the music is by using tone controls. Well, not for the moment. My current set up won't let me do it.
    Hi,

    I am intrigued. How can tone controls help to retrieve information from a worn out record?
    If the information can not be retrieved in the first place you can not add to it later. On top of that any additional artifact in the reproduction chain will have an effect on the original intended sound. Like Flo said It's all down to choice. I like to hear the music how it was meant to be.

    Peace

    Bernd
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  21. #21
    Suspended markw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Noo Joisey. Youse got a problem wit dat?
    Posts
    4,659

    "I like to hear the music how it was meant to be." So do I

    ...and that means live. Short of that, we're at the mercy of the positioning of the microphones, the acoustics of the venue/studio, the skill of the recording engineer, the speakers and acoustics of the mixdown studio, the engineer's position in that environment, not to mention said engineer's mood that day.

    To assume that playing back a recording simply with no tone controls is emulating the actual event is an exercise in optimism worthy of the emperor's new clothes, not to mention a touch of that fabled audiophile snobbery.

    You really don't think those jokers apply judicious amounts of eq and reverb as per their personal tastes in the process, not to mention playing around with the relative positioning of the players?

    The original "music as it is meant to be " was lost so far down the chain that the "real" reference point ceased to exist as soon s the artist stopped creating the event. The music you hear is as real to live music as a TV dinner is to a gourmet meal in a fine restaurant

    If "purity" of an art form is so exacting that there is no second guessing that artists involved, why does Ruth's Chris Steak House allow salt and pepper shakers on their tables? After all, their chefs know best, don't they?. Their garlic/butter sauce should be sufficient for any discerning palate in the know, right?

    I rarely use them but, on occasion, I do feel the need to tweak the sound or minimize some noise components. ...and I always will. Tell me that my rockabilly and western swing recordings from the 40 's and 50's emulate the actual sound of the event and can't be improved with a little tweaking. I could use a good laugh. Those enginers back then didn't know about high end sound. They did know AM radio.
    Last edited by markw; 12-18-2005 at 02:02 PM.

  22. #22
    AR Regular
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    214

    I expressed myself badly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernd
    Hi,

    I am intrigued. How can tone controls help to retrieve information from a worn out record?
    If the information can not be retrieved in the first place you can not add to it later. On top of that any additional artifact in the reproduction chain will have an effect on the original intended sound. Like Flo said It's all down to choice. I like to hear the music how it was meant to be.

    Peace

    Bernd
    Tone controls cannot retreive information, but in the case of a very old record, a lot of the background noise, hiss and crackle are in the high treble area. Sometimes by turning down the treble it is possible to mute the noise a little bit and get to hear the music over the noise which was totally obscuring it. Admittedly, a purist will say that this takes information away. But, even if by turning the treble down I dull down the music a bit, it is still preferable to not being able to listen to it at all. As I said before, one day I intend to explore the possibility of digital restoration of some of my older collection.

  23. #23
    AR Regular
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    214

    Another use.

    Do you remember the cassette before the proliferation of the Dolby system? It hissed like a snake. Judicious use of the treble control helped to tame this monster somewhat. I recently bought a film made in the 70s, but the transfer to DVD was so bad that the sound track hissed as badly as those old non Dolby cassettes. On this occassion I sorely regretted not having a tone control.

  24. #24
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Cheshire
    Posts
    1,602
    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    ...and that means live. Short of that, we're at the mercy of the positioning of the microphones, the acoustics of the venue/studio, the skill of the recording engineer, the speakers and acoustics of the mixdown studio, the engineer's position in that environment, not to mention said engineer's mood that day.

    To assume that playing back a recording simply with no tone controls is emulating the actual event is an exercise in optimism worthy of the emperor's new clothes, not to mention a touch of that fabled audiophile snobbery.

    You really don't think those jokers apply judicious amounts of eq and reverb as per their personal tastes in the process, not to mention playing around with the relative positioning of the players?

    The original "music as it is meant to be " was lost so far down the chain that the "real" reference point ceased to exist as soon s the artist stopped creating the event. The music you hear is as real to live music as a TV dinner is to a gourmet meal in a fine restaurant

    If "purity" of an art form is so exacting that there is no second guessing that artists involved, why does Ruth's Chris Steak House allow salt and pepper shakers on their tables? After all, their chefs know best, don't they?. Their garlic/butter sauce should be sufficient for any discerning palate in the know, right?

    I rarely use them but, on occasion, I do feel the need to tweak the sound or minimize some noise components. ...and I always will. Tell me that my rockabilly and western swing recordings from the 40 's and 50's emulate the actual sound of the event and can't be improved with a little tweaking. I could use a good laugh. Those enginers back then didn't know about high end sound. They did know AM radio.
    Hi,

    Let me deal with the salt and pepper issue first. I am a trained chef and have worked in Michelin star kitchens and no there are no salt and pepper shakers on the tables.
    If you need to enhance superbly created food with salt,pepper or tomato kechup you are in the wrong restaurant.

    Now to my point of listening how it was meant to be. I play the guitar and I will never recreate that pure sound on my rig.However I am aware that the recorded sound is manipulated as I have been lucky enough to witness several Studio recordings. What I mean is to listen to the finished (mixed and manipulated master tape). Some people obviousley feel the need to cary on the manipulation at home i.e. tone controls. It's your dime. Go knock yourself out.
    I have several records from the 50s and 60s and after careful cleaning I wouldn't dream of messing with the result. A well set up TT will cut through all that and let the music shine. Only exception be if the record is dead. No tone controls will revive that.

    Have a merry christmas and a happy time twiddling those knobs

    Bernd
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  25. #25
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Cheshire
    Posts
    1,602
    Quote Originally Posted by StanleyMuso
    Do you remember the cassette before the proliferation of the Dolby system? It hissed like a snake. Judicious use of the treble control helped to tame this monster somewhat. I recently bought a film made in the 70s, but the transfer to DVD was so bad that the sound track hissed as badly as those old non Dolby cassettes. On this occassion I sorely regretted not having a tone control.
    Hi,
    Yes I do and still use it now. I own a Nakamichi CR7 tape deck and have never used Dolby.Again if the Tape is matched correctley to the machine there is no need to use dolby.
    I do agree with you that some transfers of old movies or soundtracks hiss a lot. I too have got a movie from the late 70s on DVD and you can hardley hear the sound. Not just hiss but very low in volume.
    Wishing you merry christmas and a happy new year

    Bernd
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •