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  1. #26
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Let's get a few things straight

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Firstly many seem to want to defend their preference as fact. I own X speaker therefore it is best and they'll do precisely what you do whic is to provide anectdotal evidence that my musician friends think my speaker sounds like a guitar piano etc...then turn around and probably slam the speaker that was used in the recording process to get the piano to sound like a piano in the foirst place...and that speaker ladies and gentleman has a very good chanvce of being something many of us would not choose at the price point the B&W M801 or N801. A lot of speakers boxed or not can sound terrific - even those using metal tweeters which is not my favorite.
    Let's get a few things straight before you quote me;

    I don't feel the need to defend anything about my preferences, or have ever claimed that my posts are "facts" Yes, I give anecdotal, and personal testimony. When it's all said and done speaker preferences come down to personal preference.

    No, and that's an ABSOLUTE no, do I ever slam any speakers. I invite you to look at my body of comments on this forum. You will not see ONE post where I slam ANY speaker, or speaker manufacturer. Besides my maggies I own several different sets of speakers from any number of manufactures.

    I never dissed your Audio Note speakers, although I do question the pricing. 20k for a two way speaker even if it used 10lbs of silver wiring seems to me to be excessive. I think you have a serious belivability problem when you rail against overpriced cables, and then speak to the wonders of Audio Note, when it seems that AN is one of the worst offenders of the high price cable markup. Now, I happen to LIKE silver, I even use silver interconnects, (Homegrown Audio) but AN has gone to the absolute extremes with it's pricing. I

    I happen to LIKE many speakers besides planars. Thiel, Ohm Walshes, and ProAc, come to mind right away, and I've heard fantastic speakers (Athough pricey) from B&W, Dynaudio, and Sonus Faber.

    I grew up with the advancement of modern hi-fi speakers. Alternately in my home growing up we had AR model 3's, KLH model sixes (still got these), and large Advents. My first speakers that I bought myself were EPI's (still got these too!) with the incredible inverted dome tweeter. A design that Focal-JM labs seems to have rediscovered. (really pricey)!

    I like audio so much that I have it in every room that I can, speakers are constantly getting moved around, and I've got friends that I often trade components with. I am in no way "dogma bound" or have any feelings that in some way my system is "better" than all the rest. Far from it. To me the best system is the one your enjoying RIGHT NOW!
    Audio;
    Ming Da MC34-AB 75wpc
    PS Audio Classic 250. 500wpc into 4 ohms.
    PS Audio 4.5 preamp,
    Marantz 6170 TT Shure M97e cart.
    Arcam Alpha 9 CD.- 24 bit dCS Ring DAC.
    Magnepan 3.6r speakers Oak/black,

  2. #27
    Forum Regular TinHere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psonic
    tinhere, I have read about Swan before and that 550 is jaw drop sweet looking, I am going to look into auditioning that with the link you provided. The online reviews for Swan are excellent, although I agree with RGA and others in saying this is meaningless. My thinking is If a person bought a speaker why would he not be happy with it? Unless mechanical failure, it would be unlikely to see bad reviews. But just for kicks, if theres a local pair, I would love to hear them...or even Axiom M60's for the matter
    psonic,

    The 550's are Rocket's by Onix and can be bought at AV123.com. Swan's are made by a different company and sold through the audioinsider.com. AV123 used to distribute Diva's, but developed, manufacture, and distribute the Rocket line now. Many owners of the Diva's tried and kept the Rocket's when they were introduced. I used to have Diva's and now have Rocket's. IMHO the Rocket's sound better and are finished better. When AV123 developed the Rocket's it was done to offer a better value compared to the Diva's they were already familiar with. If they couldn't offer a better product in terms of build quality and sound AV123 would not be enjoying the success they are having. Swan's offer very good value especially when compared to b&m store's offerings at their price points, and IMO Rocket's have increased the difference in value.

    Reviews are only good to the extrent that your tastes coincide with the person who wrote the review. The better reviews compare and contrast and help give you an idea about the sonic signature of a speaker. The business model of the successful online companies offer an excellent opportunity for the consumer to spend their money on a better speaker, and not on middleman profits. These companies are growing because they are delivering on their promises of product and customer service. The testimonials from satisified customers bear this out. Problems do arise and are discussed in the open on forums. If these problems weren't addressed to the satisfaction of the consumer these companies couldn't survive. They live or die by word of mouth on the forums. SVS, HSU, Axiom, Swans, ACI, OutlawAudio, Odyssey, Ascend, etc, would not remain in business unless they offered more than you could get locally. These companies aren't growing because they made a sale, but because they make a customer who can recommend them. The numbers of people buying almost exclusively from these online direct companies is growing among the audio community for good reason. The trick is researching which one will best satisfy your listening tastes. Keep in mind they aren't just selling to first time buyers, but people who have been into audio for years as well. Dismissing this option out of hand will limit what you can get for your money in today's new marketplace. The price of shipping will more than be compensated for in better value. The enthusiasm you read about these companies from end users isn't just a bunch of people rationalizing a mistake, but from people who feel they have gotten ahead on the value/performance curve.

    Look for that audition or have an in home audition. It might, and often does change how you invest in your system. Most of the people were VERY skeptical when they decided to try this new business model. It would have been very easy for them give these products a bad review if that is how they felt. Company loyalty must be earned on every order with every customer.

    Happy hunting.
    TinHere

    Enjoying a virtual life.

  3. #28
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    The word is “quality” with enough profit to maintain it. Not mere quantity. That’s what Radio Shack is for. Or you still pissed of that your “Audio Note- biggest manufacturer” post at AA got laughed out of the running? Was his observation that they put quality over quantity lost on you? …or are they the only manufacturer that abide by that philosophy?
    Well firstly this is a downright lie. My post was not in the running for anything now was it. My post was about a review I read about the Audio note CD2 where the reviewer stated, not me, that Audio Note was the second largest British Manufacturer after B&W. My post was to get that cleared up and went along the lines of "can that really be the case because I had never really heard of Audio Note. Further I asked about what the reviewer could have meant by 2nd largest. It is clear they are not second largest in sales, so presumably the reviewer was meaning this in terms of product offerings in terms of choice. Audio Note's previous web-site claimed to be the largest distributer of high end in Britain...but that only means they sell in more countries than anyone else which doesn't mean biggest in sales. That was the point of my post...biggest can mean a lot...

    And no i'm not saying Magnepan is bad because they're not huge - I heard planars in the mid 1990s that looked very similar to the Magnepan's but because I didn't write the name down back then i can't be sure it was Magnepan or if it was someone else's speakers. That is why my comments on Planars are not specific. I listen and evaluate with the best gear available in high end shops that know how to set-up gear - If I comment on a product that I heard at Futureshop or other dreadful place then I state that to be fair.

    I am certainly NOT saying for people to not try Magnepan...My attitude is to try as many different types of designs as is possible. For what it's worth I would take the risk on the MMG than buying the 602S3 or Paradigm or other dynamically inept slim line design metal tweetered ring a ding a ding dong tweeter. However I have also read reviews of the MMG that does note the limitations and if one is a rock music lover then I am pretty sure that speaker is going to be completely outclassed by said 602S3 which is a startling good boxed speaker as an all-rounder. The 1.6 and up apparently are a total other ball-game.

    As for speaker types sounding better with certain music well interestingly enough my Wharfedale's use horn speakers and do in fact present horn instruments very differently than other speakers - I won't say better but the Trumpet and Sax are more pronounced.

    There is nothing at all wrong with using headphones as an example because headphones don't suffer from room acoustics. You cannot accurately gauge soundstage and imiging but you can detail resolving abiltiy treble bass and mids. Though I should have noted that the HD 600 is different in that it is an open air design.

    Planars are comparable to stats which is where I have heard a greater number. My comments about Audio note were to illustrate that there are boxed speakers that don't sounded boxy except where the BOX sound is Necessary. When I listened to the Jesse Cook Guitar on my speakers I can hear the guitar box resonance, on the Paradigm Monitor the guitar box is gone and all you hear is the pluck of the string...call it decay...same on piano which is vital.

    Now if the Stats and Planars do that then I would be happy...the smaller ML's don't the bigger pricey one's do IMO.

  4. #29
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Let's get a few things straight before you quote me;

    I don't feel the need to defend anything about my preferences, or have ever claimed that my posts are "facts" Yes, I give anecdotal, and personal testimony. When it's all said and done speaker preferences come down to personal preference.

    No, and that's an ABSOLUTE no, do I ever slam any speakers. I invite you to look at my body of comments on this forum. You will not see ONE post where I slam ANY speaker, or speaker manufacturer. Besides my maggies I own several different sets of speakers from any number of manufactures.

    I never dissed your Audio Note speakers, although I do question the pricing. 20k for a two way speaker even if it used 10lbs of silver wiring seems to me to be excessive. I think you have a serious belivability problem when you rail against overpriced cables, and then speak to the wonders of Audio Note, when it seems that AN is one of the worst offenders of the high price cable markup. Now, I happen to LIKE silver, I even use silver interconnects, (Homegrown Audio) but AN has gone to the absolute extremes with it's pricing. I

    I happen to LIKE many speakers besides planars. Thiel, Ohm Walshes, and ProAc, come to mind right away, and I've heard fantastic speakers (Athough pricey) from B&W, Dynaudio, and Sonus Faber.

    I grew up with the advancement of modern hi-fi speakers. Alternately in my home growing up we had AR model 3's, KLH model sixes (still got these), and large Advents. My first speakers that I bought myself were EPI's (still got these too!) with the incredible inverted dome tweeter. A design that Focal-JM labs seems to have rediscovered. (really pricey)!

    I like audio so much that I have it in every room that I can, speakers are constantly getting moved around, and I've got friends that I often trade components with. I am in no way "dogma bound" or have any feelings that in some way my system is "better" than all the rest. Far from it. To me the best system is the one your enjoying RIGHT NOW!
    Then I do apoligise if I misrepresented what you're saying about other brands.

    The upgrade in the Audio Note lines are not just silver wiring and there is diminishing retutrns. If the entry level is $2500 and the top of the line basically adds a zero naturally one wonders what could possibly attribute to that cost. And of course there is nothing that would attribute to that cost...but that does not just apply to Audio Note it also applies to the 60kcdn B&W and the 70K Dynaudio Evidence masters - hell they may not even use silver. Frankly for those prices i would like Diamond connectors and the speaker to make me a life-time supply of Starbucks coffee.

  5. #30
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Oh, come off it RGA.

    No matter what speakers are under discussion, no matter what the price range imnplied, it always boils down to you and your precious Audio Notes. If that's not prostelitizing, I don't know what is.

    What's their price, anyway?

  6. #31
    RGA
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    MarkW

    Everyone on here giving advice will mention the speakers they own when recommending or other models from the same manufacturer. So I find it odd that I should be singled out.

    I saw a generalization being made that appeared to me to suggest that no boxed speaker could possibly make one get the sense the the "musicians" were in the room. WHich in reality means that no boxed speaker can mage or soundstage because that is all there is to getting the "musicians" in the room. TO back my comment up I simply made a not that some of the people who have reviewed Audio Note speakers compared or went from a Panel - Quad arguably the best there is in many people's minds to a boxed speaker. SInce I have read the reviews of the Audio Note I used them as an example...I'm sure there are many other boxed speakers that people would refer to.

    Just as not everyone is going to like a planar not everyone is going to like Audio Note - though judging by the reviews I would expect that of all the panel owners if they had to actually go with a boxed speaker Audio Note would likely sound more like their panel than typical boxes.

    As to pricing Audio Notes start at $800.00 for the floorstanding AZ (Absolute Zero) Two, $1950.00 for the AN K Spe- with the upgrade to the AN K SE to $5950, $2700 for the AN E/D to the AN E/SEC at $19,500.00 and a newer one going over $30,000.00. The AN J is somewhere in between) The Companies' speakers are the cheapest componants they make.
    http://www.stereotimes.com/speak071701.shtm

    http://www.triodeandco.com/

  7. #32
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    RGA

    Nobody, myself included, has a problem with others recommending equipment they own. That's preferable to recommending based on two minute auditions in noisy showrooms.

    What galls me, and perhaps others have picked up on this as well, is denigrating other equipment based on reviewers comments. Likewise, owing to the fact that ones choice in speakers is as personal as ones taste in women, by dissing others choices in a manner as to make it seem not justa different oponion, but making it seem as ones choice (or opinion) is simply wrong, again using your own opinion as the ultimate yardstick.

    Audio Note may, or may not (depending on ones taste) be fine speakers but when you choose to try to prostelitize by downgrading others personal opinions (or taste), you cross the line between being helpful and trying to "bully" others into your way of thinking.

    It's time you accept the the fact that speakers are chosen by peoples tastes. For example, while you loathe metal dome drivers, obviously they have many fans out there. For you to tell the world that they are wrong because their tastes differ from you is the ultimate in hubris. You have little good to say about anything except that which you own.

    Now, if you wish to communicate with Jim Winey as to how bad his speakers are, go ahead. I'm sure he could do with a good laugh. Likewise, you might try the planar asylum as well. I'm sure you will go over big there.

    Perhaps if Audio Note offered something for US$550/pair with a money back guarantee, you might be on to something. Until then, you're trying to compare apples to oranges.

  8. #33
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    RGA

    Nobody, myself included, has a problem with others recommending equipment they own. That's preferable to recommending based on two minute auditions in noisy showrooms.

    What galls me, and perhaps others have picked up on this as well, is denigrating other equipment based on reviewers comments. Likewise, owing to the fact that ones choice in speakers is as personal as ones taste in women, by dissing others choices in a manner as to make it seem not justa different oponion, but making it seem as ones choice (or opinion) is simply wrong, again using your own opinion as the ultimate yardstick.

    Audio Note may, or may not (depending on ones taste) be fine speakers but when you choose to try to prostelitize by downgrading others personal opinions (or taste), you cross the line between being helpful and trying to "bully" others into your way of thinking.

    It's time you accept the the fact that speakers are chosen by peoples tastes. For example, while you loathe metal dome drivers, obviously they have many fans out there. For you to tell the world that they are wrong because their tastes differ from you is the ultimate in hubris. You have little good to say about anything except that which you own.

    Now, if you wish to communicate with Jim Winey as to how bad his speakers are, go ahead. I'm sure he could do with a good laugh. Likewise, you might try the planar asylum as well. I'm sure you will go over big there.

    Perhaps if Audio Note offered something for US$550/pair with a money back guarantee, you might be on to something. Until then, you're trying to compare apples to oranges.
    Look all of this is fair enough...but I'm also sick and tired of people who come onto forums and say that X $500.00 speaker is great blah blah blah and WILL NOT acknowledge weaknesses related to the sound. If the MMG were perfect there would be no 1.6 and then again a 3.6.

    It's as though forumers like the American Audio Magazines are unwilling to state the weaknesses of a given product. The reviews I've read of the MMG I'm simply stating - it is not a personal attack on Magnepan or Magnepan owners. The fact of the matter is that the MMG has weaknesses like any other speaker...and as i recall I have stated the weaknesses of the 602 and other boxed speakers.

    If Magnepan pays for the shipping both ways and duties, taxes etc when shipping to Canada that's quite good. Basically, the smart thing to do would be to listen to the 1.6 and if you like the 1.6 but you can only afford the MMG at least you'll have a prety good idea at the planar sound...presumably the MMG is a scaled down version. By all means audition them if you can.

    Audio Note is not free from weaknesses either - generally though I don't have to talk to those weaknesses because it's not like people come onto these forums asking about them - after all they don't advertise. Bass extension is not the deepest and when you pay 20k for a speaker you should expect that...it's arguably full range speaker but not sub territory which can be attained in cheaper 20k speaker systems. The soundstage in the speakers requires work to get right, positioning in corners increases bass but tales some imaging so if you want one you have to sacrifice a bit of the other - this too can be a disadvantage. But then Audio Note is not perfect, neither is Ferarri, Rolls Royce, Cary, or any other ridiculously expensive toy.

  9. #34
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    I agree with RGA.

    Maggies are not faultless. As a matter of fact they are not very good with reproducing the correct timbre of different instrments. Thats my observation. The overall sound is impressive though to a point.

    All others do have their weaknesses too. Its what kind of weaknesses the person buying them is willing to live with.

    So, the key thing to do is audition all speakers withing your budget. cone drivers, ribbon, planar, electrostat, plasma and all and go with what pleases you irrespective of the technology.

  10. #35
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    No speaker is perfect. You simply choose which speakers weaknesses andstrengtbs you wish to live with. IMNSHO, Maggies came closer to my version of musical corredctness than other speakers in their price range.

    When other musical professionals agreed with me and followed my example and went for them as well, my opinions were somewhat confirmed. They do take a little more commitment in order to place then correctly as well, but many eel the end result is well worth it though.

    And, FWIW, I do believe my initial post he listen to the spewakwers in question.

    BTW, do you have any input on his initial question? We know you don't like maggies.. What do you like? Any fool can throw stones but it takes some intelligence to build something up.

  11. #36
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Look all of this is fair enough...but I'm also sick and tired of people who come onto forums and say that X $500.00 speaker is great blah blah blah and WILL NOT acknowledge weaknesses related to the sound. If the MMG were perfect there would be no 1.6 and then again a 3.6..
    I don't ever recall anyone saying any speaker is perfect. Do you? IMNSHO, their strengths outweigh their weakness.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    It's as though forumers like the American Audio Magazines are unwilling to state the weaknesses of a given product. The reviews I've read of the MMG I'm simply stating - it is not a personal attack on Magnepan or Magnepan owners. The fact of the matter is that the MMG has weaknesses like any other speaker...and as i recall I have stated the weaknesses of the 602 and other boxed speakers..
    What Maggie reviews did you read that only posted positives? The reviews I've read do acknowledge weaknesses but, as I states above, their strengths are not to be ignored, as you seem to want to imply.


    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    If Magnepan pays for the shipping both ways and duties, taxes etc when shipping to Canada that's quite good. Basically, the smart thing to do would be to listen to the 1.6 and if you like the 1.6 but you can only afford the MMG at least you'll have a prety good idea at the planar sound...presumably the MMG is a scaled down version. By all means audition them if you can..
    Does Audio Note offer a free trial with a money back guarantee? Why not? At least Magnapan is willing to meet the public part way with the free shipping to the customer. Since it's been an ongoing thing for morethan a few years, I'd say it's a good bet that more people keep 'em (or upgrade) than send them back.

    Doesn't your Audio Note want to take that gamble? Again, why not? I'm sure if they are that great a bang for the buck they would noit lose money on the deal.


    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Audio Note is not free from weaknesses either - generally though I don't have to talk to those weaknesses because it's not like people come onto these forums asking about them - after all they don't advertise. Bass extension is not the deepest and when you pay 20k for a speaker you should expect that...it's arguably full range speaker but not sub territory which can be attained in cheaper 20k speaker systems. The soundstage in the speakers requires work to get right, positioning in corners increases bass but tales some imaging so if you want one you have to sacrifice a bit of the other - this too can be a disadvantage. But then Audio Note is not perfect, neither is Ferarri, Rolls Royce, Cary, or any other ridiculously expensive toy.
    I'd expect a LOT for a 20 grand speaker. Making excuses for it's weakness is NOT the way to convince me that it's a good deal. Funny you mention soundstage. That's one of the strong points of maggies... all of 'em from the lowly MMG's to the 20.1.

    Again, please keep in mind we're talking < $1000 here but then again, as you've proven many times in the past, you're fond of comparing apples to oranges.

  12. #37
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    IDoes Audio Note offer a free trial with a money back guarantee? Why not? At least Magnapan is willing to meet the public part way with the free shipping to the customer. Since it's been an ongoing thing for morethan a few years, I'd say it's a good bet that more people keep 'em (or upgrade) than send them back.
    It all depends on how you look at this. One could look at that as a gimmick which is similar to nOhr and Axiom's offers. Most people with no frame of reference will get the speaker at home and with nothing to compare to the speaker will sound pretty good - against nothing - so Joe Shmo will keep the speaker because of the hassle involved with returning them. Plus it's a great way to prevent non buyers from reviewing them - since owners like me are not going to buy the speaker - it prevents casual audiophile/reivewers from ever hearing their speaker - so it can be viewed as a way to stack their deck on several fronts. Furthermore, every high end dealer here will allow you to take the demo for a free trial to see if you like them. The Maggie dealer in Vancouver would likely let me take home the 1.6/3.6 etc for a free home trial. The 3.6 despite the measurements will be on my audition list when I move to that level.

    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    Doesn't your Audio Note want to take that gamble? Again, why not? I'm sure if they are that great a bang for the buck they would noit lose money on the deal.
    Audio Note prefers that people auditioning their system listen with their all Audio Note system so that you can hear what it is supposed to sound like...that has a two-fold rationale. 1) The system is designed as a unit not single entities - the idea being that when you go audition if you don't like what you heard at least they can burn in flames knowing it was an Audio note product that let them down and not somebody elses piece of crap. 2) The other being that it is quite helpful to the consumer and Audio Note that if you were utterly blown away by the system you know the componants you need to buy to get the system...not try and remember that it was X brand speaker D brand cd player, Z brand turntable and S brand amp. Naturally that helps Audio Note sell more units or packaged systems. Audio Note does not need a gimmick to sell speakers or any other product - they don't make to sell looks, they don't advertise, ... they actually let you hear them against other brands...and high end stores that have the bucks to carry Audio Note proabably will. I think it's telling that one of the biggest dealers in North America removed the N801/N802 - gorgeous looking will sell on reputation and reviews and advertising alone and replaced them with Butt ugly plain Jane Audio note no name non advertised speakers. They dumped ML incidentally because they were embarrassed.

    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    I'd expect a LOT for a 20 grand speaker. Making excuses for it's weakness is NOT the way to convince me that it's a good deal. Funny you mention soundstage. That's one of the strong points of maggies... all of 'em from the lowly MMG's to the 20.1.
    Soundstage is a weakness in positioning not the speaker (And in fact the difference in the sound from one recording to another seems to show more nuance in recordings than most speakers that shove everything to the center so people can be "blown away" by the precise imiging and soundstage...when in fact it is the speaker pressing the stuff to the center when the recording ACTUALLY has the singer left or well right of center)

    I've heard a number of very expensive speakers in this price band from Panels, Ribbons and many more "up to date" designs that also lack certain things that the AN E/SEC does so well which is maintaining a cohesive sound from top to bottom better than the statement speakers from ML and B&W such as the Model Nautilus or JM Labs Utopia's. None of these are perfect speakers and neither is the AN E Sec. The difference is the AN E Sec IMO only lacks the very bottom impact bass(Sub 20hz)...which you can add via a sub. You can't add dynamics, you can't add treble smoothness if it isn't there at the start. In fact the AN E/D which is a mere ~2500US has the same "Rated" frequency response and both will hit 12hz in a corner placement likely at -10db but that is still impressive for a 2 way 2 drive unit and better the $11k B&W Nautilus 801 or most all multi-driver slim line floorstanders. In fact the very fact that people would take the speaker over the big Khorn or Quads and is owned by reviewers at Hi Fi Choice and Stereophile and enjoythemusic.com who ALSO give good reviews to Magnepan may not mean it's the best speaker for all people but at the least should tell you it's a higly liveable long term speaker. And that is all you can ask for at the end of the day. And obviously Magnepan falls into this camp.

    One thing I LIKE about Magnepan is the fact that anybody who can keep selling the same design for 30+years(even though it's been improved now and again) means they have something...One reason I like the Sugden amps, Audio Note, Quads, among other speakers is because the designs are 30+ years old but new better materials - if you get it right the first time you only need to tweak...not re-invent every few years.

    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    Again, please keep in mind we're talking < $1000 here but then again, as you've proven many times in the past, you're fond of comparing apples to oranges.
    I'm not comparing anything...the B&W 602S3 is around $500.00US. You can't compare a boxed speaker and a panel anyway in most cases - even not counting price. The Audio Note AZ Two is ~$800.00 and is not totally out of this price band and has been compared to Quad...Stats and planars are similar and so apparently is the AZ Two and so this would seem a fair comparison...having not heard the AZ Two and having no way to hear the MMG(why would I I have speakers) then I can only go off the review.

    Bringuing up professionals well most recording studios use Senn HD580/600s or B&W Matrix/Nautilus speakers - I'm aware of no studio using any planar designs.

    Now i'm not saying this is required to be a good speaker - I'm the one who argues it does not mean much...but in this case i'm illustrating that a LOT of professional musicians and Recording Engineers in the know didn't choose ML, Quad or Magnepan for their studios

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    Yes, but...

    ...RGA, why bring Quad into the "everything is good because it has been around a long time" thing? Didn't you (somewhat) recently say your last Quad demo (whenever that was) was VERY bad for X type of music? IIRC, you want a speaker to sound good with all music... (which I do NOT subscribe to, but in a perfect world... that's a different argument :*)

    Next week, my friend and I have a tentative listening appointment with a bunch of good speakers, including the ANs... right here on Long Island! For him, not me - BUT if they're REALLY good...

    Hopefully this is not a double post... I think I screwed up on my first submission...

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by psonic
    I have been auditioning floorstanders under $1000. I am in the Philadelphia area and open to driving around a bit and auditioning others you may recommend, only new floorstanders though. This is what I have listened to at length so far in no particular order just to get your candid impressions and see how they compare with mine...


    boston acoustics VR2 http://www.bostonacoustics.com/hs_pr...7&CategoryID=2

    energy C-5 http://www.energyloudspeakers.com/co...kers1_c-5.html

    b&w 603 http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/...l%20DM603%20S3

    kef Q5 http://www.kef.com/products/qseries/qseries5.html

    paradigm monitor 9 http://www.paradigm.com/Website/Site...nitorSpecs.htm

    magnepan MMG http://www.magnepan.com/
    Back to the original topic ...

    You should also add Klipsch's RF-25 and RF-35, and the Definitive Technology BP series towers to the list as well. Different sound from the others on your list and not on my preferred short list, but you might like them. Also, look at PSB's Image series.

    I would add, as mentioned by others, that you should definitely also audition the standmounted versions of those speakers that you listed. The majority of the sub-$1,000 floorstanders that I've heard have audible box resonance, and diminished imaging and tonal balance compared to the standmounted models. The only deficiency that I found with the standmounts is the bass extension, but the standmounts are generally more balanced in the lows and you can remedy any bass deficiencies with a subwoofer.

    Another advantage of going with standmounts is that you got a whole slew of new options open to you like Paradigm's Studio series or Dynaudio's Audience line. And I can tell you from my recent listening with the new Studio 20 v.3, you definitely don't want to leave that off your list of models to consider.

  15. #40
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy C
    ...RGA, why bring Quad into the "everything is good because it has been around a long time" thing? Didn't you (somewhat) recently say your last Quad demo (whenever that was) was VERY bad for X type of music? IIRC, you want a speaker to sound good with all music... (which I do NOT subscribe to, but in a perfect world... that's a different argument :*)

    Next week, my friend and I have a tentative listening appointment with a bunch of good speakers, including the ANs... right here on Long Island! For him, not me - BUT if they're REALLY good...

    Hopefully this is not a double post... I think I screwed up on my first submission...
    Dear Jimmy C.

    Yes The Quad 63 I was not a fan of and I'm still not largely because it cannot perform adequately dynamically for rock...but this is just my opinion...lots of people are quite happy and I did note that this is a used model...which I should have said right at the beginning...so it is also plausable the speaker was not in top form.

    Of course this is hardly my complaint as a stand alone complaint of planars and stats. As you get BIGGER panels the sound gets bigger - moe air as it were is moved and dynamics are vastly increased.

    I guess what I'm saying is that I love panels I just like the BIG panels. In other words the increased detail in the mid band of say a 3k ML Aerius i is lot on me if the speaker is so dynamically and bass weak. Both issues are fixed up a LOT as you get to bigger panels.

    That of course is no different than with a boxed speaker...as you move from the N805 to the N801 or the AN K to the AN E you are getting more bass, impact etc.

    I heard the AN E a long time ago(~2 years) when I posted on this forum a review of the 9NT and Studio 100 V2 and Reference 3a MM De Capo. The AN E was the most expensive and left me totally cold - did not like what I heard.

    Fast forward 2 years, proper positioning better room(the one's the others were in) and totally different reaction when about 8 months ago I posted my reviews of the 40V2, Decapo, Wharfedale 8.2, CDM 1NT(and informal N805), and AN K...the latter made me want to listen to the AN E - in this case the SEC version.

    My regard here is the organic presentation of the speakers...I'm not going to say YOU will love them or want them or anything else. Speaker buying is a personal preference. My goal is for people to make the most informed decision possible. Frankly listening to 11 slim line designs all using a metal tweeter and 3-4 or 5 stacked 6 inch drivers all sound pretty much the same. Yes some will be a bit tighter in the bass a bit smoother in the treble etc but they sound largely the same.

    SO go out and listen to Magnepan, Vandersteen, the big fat Tannoys, Audio Note, ML, and the Avante Gaurdes or other notble horns, Legacy(and other backless boxless speakers, crossoverless De Capo's, and even weird stuff like Cabasse or omni-polars from Mirage.

    I get on Mirage and Thiel as speakers I simply don't like - they get the reviews and more importantly people RAVE about Thiel as much as I rave about Audio Note - and frankly It would not surprise me if the guy that has Thiels and loves them would feel as negatively toward Audio Note as I feel about the pair of Thiel's I heard. Neither is right or wrong their designer designs out of a passion for the music and the two see it differently....as a buyer all that matter is you attempt to give them due listening and decide for yourself.

    I have very picky things I look for that others could care less about and other aspects of the sound that I'm not AS concerned about that others simply MUST have.

    People who follow the certain TYPE of sound I like will value my advice and many others won't. I tend to forget this and sort of assume everyone is on my page of listening. Perhaps it's the movie critic in me - I would go toe to toe with Roger Ebert any day on a lot of movies. These film Critics look at a film and have VERY strong opinions that the Y movie is the BEST and everyone else is a nimrod for not seeing it the same way they did.

    Hell I know people who hate Pulp Fiction, Monster's Ball, The War Zone, American, Beauty, Goodfellas, Schindler's List, In the Bedroom --- and I try and defend these as some of the best films ever made - all are in my top 100. Then They would get upset with me and try and defend their view that the LOTR trilogy or The Godfather or Citizen Kane or Casablanca should be on my list - and they're not.(Though I'd recommend them).

    We can all pull out the countless critics who LOVED all of these films but in the end if I had to watch a movie tonight to entertain and PLEASE ME...I would pull out Pulp Fiction over any LOTR movie or Citizen Kane.

    It's about what you like. Since all speakers - ALL OF THEM!! make trade-offs of some kid the individual has to determine what they can and can't live with. The Hi-Fi CHoice review of the AN E D mentions some weaknesses and so does the stereotimes review. Yes they got high marks and many reviewers have bought them...that however does not mean I can't find speakers for the same and even less money that in certain areas won't better Audio Note speakers...I personally feel they're beaten in more pyrotechnic areas rather than the entire musical whole - which is why I went with them - and I still had a budget to deal with like anyone else - If I had 5k I would not have bought the AN K Spe.

  16. #41
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    $729 for VR2??? WHERE!

    Boston VR2 ($729) - Not bad, in fact good, just wasn't moved as much as with the Kef or C5. And don't like the cabinet as much either.


    Dude, where did you find that! I'm there - I'm a Boston head, I'll admit it...

    Last I checked, these were selling at Tweeter for about $425 a pop - that's more like $900 after tax. I could care less if the box isn't pretty, the SOUND is gorgeous...

  17. #42
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    Talking

    Forgive me for sounding like the novice I am but what happened to the response to the poster's original question? As someone who enjoys music and also looking at movies in a good HT system, I am always in awe at those who claim to be "audiophiles" Case in point....I was in an audio store here in NYC yesterday listening to some of the very speakers the poster is inquiring about. I happened to have walked into another room they had set up for music and had a pair of Infinity Kappa 400 floorstanding towers playing, driven by an HK 7500 receiver. To my ears, I thought these speakers sounded beautifully compared some of the others the dealer was trying to "sell" me. He wasn't pushy but more condescending in his tone when explaining what "true audiophile" sound was. To my ears, I couldn't really tell a significant difference between some of the speakers costing 2-3 times as much as the Infinity (PSB and Paradigm's mid to top line) But yet the salesman kept insisting that what I was hearing and what true audiophile sound was were completely different. I don't think there is anything wrong with those who wish to spend multiple thousands of dollars on a pair of speakers but my ears have yet to find a significant enough difference in speakers costing $2-3k and speakers costing 3-4 times as much. In terms of looks and perhaps build quality, I can understand but my parents have Ohm Walshes and I have to admit, I have yet to hear speakers that are their equal in their price range or exceeding it. Personally I don't like speakers that sound "tinny" and I suppose the metallic tweeters are partially responsible for that? I am not sure but perhaps someone could clarify that. And if anyone has listened to the Ohm Walsh speakers, are there any other brands out there that are close in sound to these speakers? I'd like to perhaps get something similar sounding because the Walsh speakers are quite large. With regards to the original poster, I think the B &W speakers are quite good compared to some of the others you mentioned, though all of them have their own nuances but in the end, you should always audition them personally.

  18. #43
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    Guys, I finally got over to my nearest Dynaudio dealer to hear the Audience 62. After listening to the Vienna Bachs ($1050 display) and then last week the Totem Staff ($1200 display) and I was prepared to stretch a little on the $$ as the sound of the under $1K speakers all sounded mid-fi in comparison, IMO. For example the $995 Monitor audio silver floorstander (not sure of model, but 2 6" woofers) lost in every category to these except bass, but they were bloated and boomy. Well the Dynes offered the most bass of the 3 (I don't use a sub), and sounded just as wonderful everywhere else...in particular, female vocals from Natalie Merchant's Tigerlilly were rendered better than I have heard in this price range. The speakers just dissapear into a huge soundstage, and no bass bloat or boxiness to speak of. The only downside is the cabinet is not a veneer like the Vienna & Totem, I guess the money went to the drivers. The cabinet does however seem extremely well made and solid; the finish is the best non-wood I have seen.

    Final thoughts on my auditions-
    If anyone is shopping a floorstander in the $1k range and likes a natural, uncolored, audiophile sound, with good bass and a large involving soundstage..do yourself a favor and listen to Dynaudio Audience 62, Totem Staff and Vienna Acoustics Bach (on clearance at all Tweeter stores). These are a downright steal when you look at how good they sound compared to the pricey stuff, like Sonus Faber. I highly recommend all three, they all have different strenghts and few outright weaknesses and all have a sweet sound and silk tweeter. They moved me.

    For $600 - $800 (and $800 is a stretch as your sooooo close to the others) I did like the Energy C5 & Kef Q5.

    I'd like to thank you for all your feedback and advice. I bought a pair of Dynaudio Audience 60s from audiogon.com, realizing there is risk involved, but a great savings too. As part of the deal, he paid for shipping too! Here they are:

    http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....ull&1082597411

    My understanding is they sound very similar to the 62, so I doubt I will be dissapointed if they arrive intact. Though worst case, they are insured in the shipping.

  19. #44
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    Congrats!

    Dynaudio does make fine speakers. I'm not familiar with that exact model, but the Audience line is indeed swell :^)

    I feel exactly as you do regarding how well the Viennas stack up to the Sonus Fabers - I felt the Hadyn was very similar sounding to the Concertos at half the price.

    The Dyns seem to like a bit of breathing room, moreso than other like speakers, IMO. The bass is definitely generous, and seems to get a bit "fat" if too crowded. I'm sure you'll have fun playing around.

    Enjoy your new toy!

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