Fullrangers win Stereophile product of the year

The article is not out yet but here's the review of these $29k back loaded horns. I wonder if they sound any better than PoppaC's DIY Frugals?

Voxativ Ampeggio loudspeaker | Stereophile.com

I'll be really impressed when a DIY Open Baffle Speaker wins Stereophile product of the year :devil:

The single driver is certainly appealing. But $30k. I'd like to see them compare the Teresonic Ingenium also a single driver but they start at around $5k. Sound was terrific.

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Originally Posted by Poultrygeist

The article is not out yet but here's the review of these $29k back loaded horns. I wonder if they sound any better than PoppaC's DIY Frugals?

Voxativ Ampeggio loudspeaker | Stereophile.com

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Humm ... interesting, I guess.

In the first place any $30,000 speaker ought to be effing amazing regardless of technology. I don't think you have to spend that kind of dough to get an excellent speaker for you average living room. One justification for spending more is a large room and accordingly a speaker that can fill it at high volume of sound. This Voxativ doesn't fill that bill.

The whole full-range thing doesn't intrigue me personally. (This is apart from the question of whether a driver with two cones is really full-range.) There is ample evidence that you can build multi-driver speakers without many compromises. Speaking of compromises, one, argueably, is that multi-drivers are less efficient: who cares when you can get superb sounding 400 wpc amp for $600? Empircal evidence doesn't support the contention that crossover networks, even passive ones, really compromise purity of sound to a significant degree.

testing

Passive vs Active Crossovers

"The vast majority of loudspeaker manufactures prefer passive crossovers, usually second or third order except for very high end ones such as the first order VMPS or the now defunct Dunlavy, and the fourth order B&W 800's, or the Joseph Audio eighth order. Only a few, especially pro audio types use their own active crossovers with built-in amplifiers, thus imposing complete control over the sound of their loudspeakers."

"For horn enthusiasts, active crossovers are the ideal way to go as they allow us to use flea powered 2a3 or 300B amplifiers for their superb mid and high ranges and push pull tube or solid state for their bass. One gets the best of speed, transparency, control and drive by not putting passive components between the amplifiers and drivers." - Bill Gaw ( Enjoy the Music )

Bill Gaw: AA Chapter 43 Marchand Electronics XM-44 Active Crossover

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Originally Posted by Poultrygeist

Passive vs Active Crossovers

"The vast majority of loudspeaker manufactures prefer passive crossovers, usually second or third order except for very high end ones such as the first order VMPS or the now defunct Dunlavy, and the fourth order B&W 800's, or the Joseph Audio eighth order. Only a few, especially pro audio types use their own active crossovers with built-in amplifiers, thus imposing complete control over the sound of their loudspeakers."
...

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Active crossovers are preferred according to the general consensus. When you look at professional speakers it's most often the case that they have active crossovers and separate amps per driver, even in case of small monitors

One must speculate why audiophile speakers don't employ passive ACTIVE crossovers. The big reason, by my guess, is that it's seems less complicated. The follow-on questions is why more speakers don't have built-in amps (downstream of active crossovers). In this case I think it's explained by the desire of audiophiles to select amps separately from the speakers and to fine-tune the amp sound to his/her taste. Or to put it another way, it's more fun to have separate components.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

Active crossovers are preferred according to the general consensus. When you look at professional speakers it's most often the case that they have active crossovers and separate amps per driver, even in case of small monitors

One must speculate why audiophile speakers don't employ passive crossovers. The big reason, by my guess, is that it's seems less complicated. The follow-on questions is why more speakers don't have built-in amps (downstream of active crossovers). In this case I think it's explained by the desire of audiophiles to select amps separately from the speakers and to fine-tune the amp sound to his/her taste. Or to put it another way, it's more fun to have separate components.

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Imagine trying to sell a commercial (audiophile) 2,3 or 4 way speaker with no passive crossover - It would require the buyer to purchase an active crossover and 2 to 4 stereo amps... even assuming the speaker maker includes a preset active crossover, the consumer would still need 2 - 4 stereo amps... That would be a major turnoff to many persons... Generally only audiophiles looking for statement products want to make such a commitment...

The other option is to sell active speakers. As you rightly pointed out; they lack flexibility - So no easy upgrade option by swapping out power amps...

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Originally Posted by Feanor

The whole full-range thing doesn't intrigue me personally. (This is apart from the question of whether a driver with two cones is really full-range.) There is ample evidence that you can build multi-driver speakers without many compromises. Speaking of compromises, one, argueably, is that multi-drivers are less efficient: who cares when you can get superb sounding 400 wpc amp for $600? Empircal evidence doesn't support the contention that crossover networks, even passive ones, really compromise purity of sound to a significant degree.

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I can't say that I'm remotely interested in using a single driver in some extremely complicated horn arrangement. Also, I find the term full-range highly misleading (since most of those speakers aren't actually full-range). However, a two way design using a "full-range" and a woofer does seem interesting to me... This one in particular (cheap and easy to build):

http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project09/Two_Speakers.jpg
Project 9 : Eminence Alpha 15A Experimental Open Baffle Design

I really hope to try that out with a Class D Audio SDS-470 on top and my Emo XPA-2 on the bottom + a Behringer Active Crossover...

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Originally Posted by Ajani

I can't say that I'm remotely interested in using a single driver in some extremely complicated horn arrangement. Also, I find the term full-range highly misleading. Extended-Range sounds more realistic. However, a two way design using an Extended-Range and a woofer does seem interesting to me... This one in particular (cheap and easy to build):

http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project09/Two_Speakers.jpg
Project 9 : Eminence Alpha 15A Experimental Open Baffle Design

I really hope to try that out with a Class D Audio SDS-470 on top and my Emo XPA-2 on the bottom + a Behringer Active Crossover...

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A,
At least on the recording side of things, a fullrange speaker will extend down to 40hz flat. A extended range speaker will extend down to 20hz flat.

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

A,
At least on the recording side of things, a fullrange speaker will extend down to 40hz flat. A extended range speaker will extend down to 20hz flat.

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Guess I need a different term then... since most "fullrange" speakers don't go down to 40hz flat.... Don't know why I thought extended range was less than fullrange...

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Originally Posted by Ajani

Guess I need a different term then... since most "fullrange" speakers don't go down to 40hz flat....

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Exceptions include full range electrostats like the larger Sound Labs models which provide flat in room response down to 25 hz.

rw

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Originally Posted by Ajani

Imagine trying to sell a commercial (audiophile) 2,3 or 4 way speaker with no passive crossover - It would require the buyer to purchase an active crossover and 2 to 4 stereo amps... even assuming the speaker maker includes a preset active crossover, the consumer would still need 2 - 4 stereo amps... That would be a major turnoff to many persons... Generally only audiophiles looking for statement products want to make such a commitment...

The other option is to sell active speakers. As you rightly pointed out; they lack flexibility - So no easy upgrade option by swapping out power amps...

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While I think you're right, I also think that consumer, active speakers would be, (indeed are), quite feasible and could be sold relatively economically. Again, professional monitors are proof of this. Passive speakers and separate amps are much a traditional as anything else.

In the HT and low-end markets, people are used to buying receivers and integrateds -- it's a mind set and it's what the big companies are delivering. In the high-end market I think the tweaking aspect, not to mention the fixation on tubes, is more important.

But to me when you're in the $30k range, I think it's sane that a speaker ought to come with a custom crossover network & amps finely tuned to the drivers and box. My experience with digital amps demostrates to me that you don't need large, heavy, very expensive power amps. If you want to color you music, do it at the front end with a tube preamp.

I primarily listen to jazz where a stand up bass only goes down to 41hz. Many folks confuse bass extension with bass weight and opt for a sub when bass weight is what's missing in their system. The upper bass is where much of an orchestra's foundation and weight lies. It is in this critical range that OB wide band woofers shine with clarity and realism while boxed woofers sound unnatural and boxy.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

While I think you're right, I also think that consumer, active speakers would be, (indeed are), quite feasible and could be sold relatively economically. Again, professional monitors are proof of this. Passive speakers and separate amps are much a traditional as anything else.

In the HT and low-end markets, people are used to buying receivers and integrateds -- it's a mind set and it's what the big companies are delivering. In the high-end market I think the tweaking aspect, not to mention the fixation on tubes, is more important.

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I think active speakers will gain traction with the younger crowd; Those persons who don't regard "convenience" as a bad word. Older die-hard audiophiles are far less likely to accept the lack of tweaking options... However persons who just want plug and play combined with great sound quailty, will be more open to the concept... I gave my younger brother my M-Audio actives and he is in love with them (no way would he ever opt for typical audiophile seperates), So I can certainly see active speakers connected to Dock/Dac/Computer gaining popularity...

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Originally Posted by Feanor

But to me when you're in the $30k range, I think it's sane that a speaker ought to come with a custom crossover network & amps finely tuned to the drivers and box. My experience with digital amps demostrates to me that you don't need large, heavy, very expensive power amps. If you want to color you music, do it at the front end with a tube preamp.

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If you're spending $30K, you should be ridiculously demanding about exactly what you want... With that kind of coin you could have your setup custom built if you so desire...

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Originally Posted by E-Stat

Exceptions include full range electrostats like the larger Sound Labs models which provide flat in room response down to 25 hz.

rw

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Certainly. I was thinking of Cone drivers though. The problem I have with Electrostats that reach 25hz is the price (and I suppose the size as well).

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Originally Posted by Ajani

...
If you're spending $30K, you should be ridiculously demanding about exactly what you want... With that kind of coin you could have your setup custom built if you so desire...

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There are megabuck audiophile active speakers out there ... these Meridian DPS8000's would be nice I should think, (specs HERE).

http://www.meridian-audio.com/media/14210/dsp8000v2.png

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Originally Posted by Feanor

There are megabuck audiophile active speakers out there ... these Meridian DPS8000's would be nice I should think, (specs HERE).

http://www.meridian-audio.com/media/14210/dsp8000v2.png

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That's an ultimate example of where I think audiophile systems will eventually go (for persons who don't care about whether they can tweak by changing components)... Active speakers with DSP and digital inputs. Not sure if the amps are class d though... Which would be the ideal in such a scenario:

Take the notion of a NAD M2 - everything kept digital up to the output stage (combined with DSP and active crossover and multiple amps) and direct to the speakers and you have something really interesting.

Just to make sure my point about the M2 was clear, this diagram does a great job of illustrating:

http://a248.e.akamai.net/pix.crutchf...5M2-t_AAS.jpeg

http://a248.e.akamai.net/pix.crutchf...M2-t_DDAS.jpeg

I'm afraid those Meridians look better than they sound. My son-in-law, who's in the business, has a pair that belonged to Emmitt Smith. He hates to admit that my OB's are way better.

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Originally Posted by Poultrygeist

I'm afraid those Meridians look better than they sound. My son-in-law, who's in the business, has a pair that belonged to Emmitt Smith. He hates to admit that my OB's are way better.

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I've read mixed opinions on the Meridians... I have no idea whether they actually sound good... But the concept is good (even if the execution might be lacking)...

I want to do something somewhat similar with my OB project - use DSP to smooth out the in-room frequency response (since one of the complaints about 'full-range' drivers is uneven FR)... Should be fun...

He has a pair of the DSP 6000 which he traded for. I'm just glad he didn't spend hard earned cash for them.

Here's an example of a SOTA speaker more in line with the project I'm interested in:

http://www.lotusgroupusa.com/Images/...urationSm2.jpg
The Granada Loudspeaker
Lotus Group Granada
Active Crossover, DSP, Open Baffle, Full-Range Driver mated to dual 12" Woofers
Only $125,000/pair

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Originally Posted by Poultrygeist

I'm afraid those Meridians look better than they sound. My son-in-law, who's in the business, has a pair that belonged to Emmitt Smith. He hates to admit that my OB's are way better.

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Does that mean he's admitted it (though reluctantly) or that he refuses to admit it (which means he is in denial OR really just does not agree with your opinion)?

Yes he's like "da" river in Egypt.