Full Review of the new B&W 800D

[RGA]

Without getting too close to you, that's the most self-righteous, pompous, and ridiculously presumptuous piece of crap post that I've yet seen on this site in my five years here. That type of conceitedly snobbish attitude is exactly the kind of sentiment that gives all audiophiles a bad name.

And that's saying something since I post here eh Woochifer

[RGA]

You know this thread has made me realize why I stopped posting on Rottentomatoes.com -- It's fun to argue about movies and speakers because they are subjective responses to what we see experience and in audio hear(though we also see and experience it).

There is one golden rule -- never assume that just because it costs more it's better. And if there is a secondary rule it would be -- Even if it is better is it better enough towarrant the price.

I recently heard the Wilson Sophia loudspeakers which retail for $16k Cdn and while they were very listenable and well done I can tell you that there is no way on earth I would trade my speakers for them because the Sophia in my listening just isn't as well integrated and doesn't do the job for me. There are lots of folks though who swear by the Sophia...who's right is who is holding the cheque at the time.

I understand panel fans because panesl tend to sound very different dfrom everything else -- but lots of people have heard panels who don't like them and this is true for every speaker.

[Peter Duminy]

Quote from RGA:

You know this thread has made me realize why I stopped posting on Rottentomatoes.com


We could always start a new Forum - RottenVoicecoils.net

[StanleyMuso]

You may be entitled to your opinions, just like the rest of us. But just because you are the moderator, you need to show a little more respect, be a little more tolerant, understanding and less insulting. I read these columns often, but don't post frequently, but this time I felt compelled to put in my little bit. Your assumptions upset me considerably. How can you be so dogmatic? Has money gone to your head? Or is it that famous Germanic arrogance we often hear about? I hope not, because I have a lot of German friends and none of them are like that.

Expensive does not necessarily mean "good". I have listened to a lot of high end stuff over the long years I have been impassioned by this hobby (and from other posters I would presume that its been over a longer period than you have been alive), and I can tell you, even stratospherically priced stuff has often left me feeling cold and uninvolved. And I buy stuff for my own satisfaction, and not for bragging rights. If you buy it for bragging rights, you must be really insecure, and perhaps a good psychologist could help you. I notice you often brag about the expense of your equipment in your posts. Does the expense of your stuff make you feel that you are better than the rest of us? If that is so, you suffer from a poverty of spirit.

[theaudiohobby]

Florian, you're making no sense at all... If you are incapable of judging gear unless you already own similarly performing gear, how in the hell could you ever be confident you are upgrading your system? How would you ever buy a speaker in of a higher level than you already have?Gonna take audiophile recommendations at face-value? Yeah right...

The point exactly.

[Florian]

You may be entitled to your opinions, just like the rest of us. But just because you are the moderator, you need to show a little more respect, be a little more tolerant, understanding and less insulting. I read these columns often, but don't post frequently, but this time I felt compelled to put in my little bit. Your assumptions upset me considerably. How can you be so dogmatic? Has money gone to your head? Or is it that famous Germanic arrogance we often hear about? I hope not, because I have a lot of German friends and none of them are like that.

Expensive does not necessarily mean "good". I have listened to a lot of high end stuff over the long years I have been impassioned by this hobby (and from other posters I would presume that its been over a longer period than you have been alive), and I can tell you, even stratospherically priced stuff has often left me feeling cold and uninvolved. And I buy stuff for my own satisfaction, and not for bragging rights. If you buy it for bragging rights, you must be really insecure, and perhaps a good psychologist could help you. I notice you often brag about the expense of your equipment in your posts. Does the expense of your stuff make you feel that you are better than the rest of us? If that is so, you suffer from a poverty of spirit.

I do agree that i went over the top and i am sorry for it, but money has nothing to do with it. I am just against the general consumption that a speaker wich cost 20 or 30 thousand is not better than a 4 thousand dollar B&W. While i do agree that not all big prize speakers are better, i feel that the general high prized speakers are better than lower prized ones. I am not made of money and i properbly over the years paid around 10 thousand for it. I mind you this is over a period of 5 years and the system is well worth over 20 thousand now. I am NOT taking this price and use it as a general statment. I buy my equipment because i like it, not because of the prize tag. The price comes second in my opinion, because i will save my money for so long until i can afford what i want.

I had to make huge sacrifices in order to get the Apogee and to use it. Its big, heavy, not room friendly, room fusy, amplifier fusy and doesnt like 90% of all the electronics out there. But i bought it, knowing that i would not be able to drive them properbly because i loved the sound. They are not made anymore, and if they brake i could not afford to repair them.

I dont have a lot of money, i just spend it wisely for what i like. You guys are right by saying that more does not mean its better. BUT many high prize tag systems are better than lower end systems, and thats true too.

-Flo

PS: I know as a moderator i am supposed to be more relaxed and understanding, and i am working on it. I have been always nice to everyone in the gallery no matter how much their system costs. And i have always been supportive, even for B&W users ;-)

[StanleyMuso]

I went overboard in my criticism. Even an old codger like me sometimes forgets it is not wise to make a response while one is hot under the collar. It is best to make such responses when one has cooled down. I should never have made such personal comments.

Enjoy your system - I know what's it like to make sacrifices to own a bit of delicious gear.

[jdm56]

I fully respect your position because it's well thought out, clear and honest. Good for you...when you approach equipment shopping in this manner you'll never be sorry...BTW I've spend at least 4 or 5 hours with the 800D and they are very special indeed...but I think it's the 20K part that I get stuck on....


Peace and well written post, Pogue

Hey, I think it's debatable whether or not ANY speaker, even one with diamond tweeters can possibly be worth $20,000! I think high-end audio pricing has more to do with what someone will pay than any absolute value. I suppose as long as there is a market for gear at those prices, you could make a valid case that they are worth it, though. I'd love to have a pair, but I'm a working-class audiophile with a family, so they out of the question; which btw, causes me to lose no sleep at all! I can be very happy much lower down the food chain. I think the old law of diminishing returns starts kicking in pretty hard when you get past $2000/pr for loudspeakers.

[theaudiohobby]

Hey, I think it's debatable whether or not ANY speaker, even one with diamond tweeters can possibly be worth $20,000! I think high-end audio pricing has more to do with what someone will pay than any absolute value. I suppose as long as there is a market for gear at those prices, you could make a valid case that they are worth it, though. I'd love to have a pair, but I'm a working-class audiophile with a family, so they out of the question; which btw, causes me to lose no sleep at all! I can be very happy much lower down the food chain. I think the old law of diminishing returns starts kicking in pretty hard when you get past $2000/pr for loudspeakers.

Does any painting worth $20M? Does any car worth $1M? Does any house worth $70M? the list goes on and on. Does any speaker worth $20K? Some manufacturers thinks so, those in the market or who have bought such speakers also think so. If I like a 20K+ speakers and I can afford it, I will buy it, irrespective of diminishing returns.

[PAT.P]

Any of you guys received their DVD A SOUND EXPERIENCE ? I for one could say after looking at it I could say it looks like they do take time making these .As for the sound of them I'll have to listen to them just for the fun of it .I'll trust my ears and see if they are as great as their craftmanship.Pat.P

[E-Stat]

I think the old law of diminishing returns starts kicking in pretty hard when you get past $2000/pr for loudspeakers.

The same could be said for $20 ear bud headphones as well.

You'll never find the "magic" with $2k speakers.

rw

[PAT.P]

The same could be said for $20 ear bud headphones as well.

You'll never find the "magic" with $2k speakers.

rw

I'm curious but why dont you list your equipment ?Is there a reason ?And yes if money was not an issue I could find the magic with $2k ++++ speakers.Pat.P

[E-Stat]

I'm curious but why dont you list your equipment ?Is there a reason ?And yes if money was not an issue I could find the magic with $2k ++++ speakers.Pat.P

I really should list my equipment as I find it does give others a point of reference for my comments. Call my lazy. Until I do, here is a link that provides that answer:

http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/966.html

rw

[Florian]

I really should list my equipment as I find it does give others a point of reference for my comments.

This is a very good comment because i feel the same way. I list all my equipment and names like Apogee, Krell, VMPS or Pathos mean money. I do agree that you will not find the magic with 2K. Not saying there are no good speakers for 2K, but you wont find Audio Nirvana with those.

-Flo

[dean_martin]

This is a very good comment because i feel the same way. I list all my equipment and names like Apogee, Krell, VMPS or Pathos mean money. I do agree that you will not find the magic with 2K. Not saying there are no good speakers for 2K, but you wont find Audio Nirvana with those.

-Flo

Flo - when are you going to get rid of that cheap-assed Rega P2 and Rega phono amp analog rig? You don't even list your cartridge! It's time you moved up to a real analog rig. Your present one is severely lacking.

Therefore, you are prohibited from offering any comments or advice on turntables, tonearms, cartridges and phono preamps until you offer proof of owning a genuine "high end" rig!

[Florian]

Flo - when are you going to get rid of that cheap-assed Rega P2 and Rega phono amp analog rig? You don't even list your cartridge! It's time you moved up to a real analog rig. Your present one is severely lacking.

Therefore, you are prohibited from offering any comments or advice on turntables, tonearms, cartridges and phono preamps until you offer proof of owning a genuine "high end" rig!

That is true in every regard. Since i do not use the Analog section at all, i have absolutly no experience with it whatsoever. That is exactly the reason why you will not find one comment about Analog devices from me. Thanks for making my point ;-)

-Flo

[jdm56]

Does any painting worth $20M? Does any car worth $1M? Does any house worth $70M? the list goes on and on. Does any speaker worth $20K? Some manufacturers thinks so, those in the market or who have bought such speakers also think so. If I like a 20K+ speakers and I can afford it, I will buy it, irrespective of diminishing returns.

Hey, don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking spending more than 2K on a pair of speakers. I've spent more than that a number of times! My current speakers (B&W 703's) listed for $3000. I paid $2700. It's just that imho, around 2K is the point beyond which twice the bucks may not get you twice the sound quality. Of course, it's impossible to really make a hard, fast rule. There are some giant killers under 1K/pr.

FWIW, I think you can "get the magic for 2K" (or less). Try a pair of B&W 705's for $1500, or a pair of 805's for 2K. They may not get you deep bass or high spl's, but they definitely will give you a generous helping of the magic. If by magic you mean what I mean: A holographic, 3D soundstage and disappearing speakers!

[jdm56]

Any of you guys received their DVD A SOUND EXPERIENCE ? I for one could say after looking at it I could say it looks like they do take time making these .As for the sound of them I'll have to listen to them just for the fun of it .I'll trust my ears and see if they are as great as their craftmanship.Pat.P

yup, got it! also, i've got a similar DVD from Dynaudio. Both are impressive, but especially the B&W.

[Geoffcin]

This is a very good comment because i feel the same way. I list all my equipment and names like Apogee, Krell, VMPS or Pathos mean money. I do agree that you will not find the magic with 2K. Not saying there are no good speakers for 2K, but you wont find Audio Nirvana with those.

-Flo

Nirvana, if you take it at it's literal meaning, is a PERSONAL state of being. No one can tell anyone else what nirvana is. Certainly those in search of it can expound all sorts of philosophies about how to attain it, but in the end it is a personal experience.

[dean_martin]

That is true in every regard. Since i do not use the Analog section at all, i have absolutly no experience with it whatsoever. That is exactly the reason why you will not find one comment about Analog devices from me. Thanks for making my point ;-)

-Flo

You might be surprised if you funnel some of that money toward a nice analog rig. I prefer my budget analog over my budget digital. Plus, you can do a lot more tweaking and you can try a variety of cartridges. Once you're satisfied with your amp/speaker set-ups, you should set your sights on a nice high end analog rig. With your commitment, you should be able to come up with an awesome turntable/tonearm/cartridge/phono amp combo. I have to give you your props. As we say here in the states - you put your money where your mouth is.

[RGA]

Nirvana, if you take it at it's literal meaning, is a PERSONAL state of being. No one can tell anyone else what nirvana is. Certainly those in search of it can expound all sorts of philosophies about how to attain it, but in the end it is a personal experience.

And some people reach Nirvanna listening to Nirvanna - while they just give me a headache.

The notion that money is associated with reaching a cathartic experience with the music is as ludicrous as it gets -- I have hear many many systems that based on price dwarf mine that are totally outclassed by my system in most every sonice regard and certainly in every musical regard. I have heard systems that are more expensive and better in every sonic and musical regard as well -- I have heard systems that would have trouble musically against the Wharfedales for that matter - a speaker with technical weakspots but can generate emotion and be highly enjoyable.

There is a BIG difference between musicphile and audiophile and appears some in this thread have lost the music for the sonics (forrest for the trees). As much as I love to talk about systems and of some gear I like more than other gear, the music is what really counts and I can be happy listening to it on my Panasonic personal disc player with $4.00 headphones.

UHF said it best
"It remains a fact that most famous-name equipment is deliberately built to perform poorly. It is also true that some astonishingly expensive esoteric equipment just doesn't cut it. Fortunately, it also remains true even today that real music can be heard from a system that is, by hi-fi standards, inexpensive."

And
"Nor do I put sound ahead of music. It says a lot that I collect records by the great conductor, Arturo Toscanini, who made his last recording (in mono!) in 1954. Perfectly reproduced boring music is perfectly...boring."

"The problem
If all you needed to do was look up "hi-fi" in the Yellow Pages and go and get a system, there would be no need for this book. In fact there are tremendous barriers to high fidelity. Most of the merchants claiming to sell hi-fi wouldn't recognize it if the RCA dog bit them on the ankle. They have never heard it themselves, and they don't care whether you ever do or not. They will try to sell you boxes, some of them cheap. some of them expensive, bearing famous names. Most of it will not be hi-fi equipment.
To find true hi-fi, you will need to visit a different kind of store. You will need to let your ears guide you. You will need to beware of technical arguments which are not backed by demonstrations that seduce you with music. You will need to avoid being seduced by what equipment looks like, and concentrate on the only important aspect.
How it sounds."

[topspeed]

The notion that money is associated with reaching a cathartic experience with the music is as ludicrous as it gets -- I have hear many many systems that based on price dwarf mine that are totally outclassed by my system in most every sonice regard and certainly in every musical regard. I have heard systems that are more expensive and better in every sonic and musical regard as well -- I have heard systems that would have trouble musically against the Wharfedales for that matter - a speaker with technical weakspots but can generate emotion and be highly enjoyable.

There is a BIG difference between musicphile and audiophile and appears some in this thread have lost the music for the sonics (forrest for the trees). As much as I love to talk about systems and of some gear I like more than other gear, the music is what really counts and I can be happy listening to it on my Panasonic personal disc player with $4.00 headphones.

I am in complete agreement with you!

Geez, did I forget to take my pills again?!?




WOMAN, where's my supersuit?!

[Florian]

Hey, don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking spending more than 2K on a pair of speakers. I've spent more than that a number of times! My current speakers (B&W 703's) listed for $3000. I paid $2700. It's just that imho, around 2K is the point beyond which twice the bucks may not get you twice the sound quality. Of course, it's impossible to really make a hard, fast rule. There are some giant killers under 1K/pr.

FWIW, I think you can "get the magic for 2K" (or less). Try a pair of B&W 705's for $1500, or a pair of 805's for 2K. They may not get you deep bass or high spl's, but they definitely will give you a generous helping of the magic. If by magic you mean what I mean: A holographic, 3D soundstage and disappearing speakers!

What i mean by magic is explained by the word "real". On the Adiemus Songs of Sanctuary Trac2 the church bells sound 100% the same as if i stand in the sreet and the church bells ring. A violin or a brass instrument sounds real. The size, decay of notes and the downward dynamic range is exeptional. Anybody is welcome to my home and listen to the Apogee's. Some speakers are tested by technical facts, and some are tested by reality.

-Flo

PS: Would E-Stat say his speakers are only a bit better in some areas? Or am I saying that the big Aps are only a bit better. No!The B&W 700 series is very good for the money and is definetly nice sounding than many speakers. But speakers like the big Soundlabs or Apogee or Dunlavys just play in a different leauge. And not just a little better in some areas, no they are in a different leauge. Yes, they cost more...but they also deliver more.

[Florian]

There is a BIG difference between musicphile and audiophile and appears some in this thread have lost the music for the sonics (forrest for the trees). As much as I love to talk about systems and of some gear I like more than other gear, the music is what really counts and I can be happy listening to it on my Panasonic personal disc player with $4.00 headphones.

I have no problems listening to my old Maggie .5's with CA equipment either. But this is totaly besids the point. The Audiophile and Musicphiles quest (at least mine) is to get as close to reality as possible.

UHF said it best
"It remains a fact that most famous-name equipment is deliberately built to perform poorly. It is also true that some astonishingly expensive esoteric equipment just doesn't cut it. Fortunately, it also remains true even today that real music can be heard from a system that is, by hi-fi standards, inexpensive."

This includes AudioNote. AudioNote has one of the absolutly highest prices you can get. Also they have the least materials in their system. Sound quality aside-

-Flo

[Peter Duminy]

This includes AudioNote. AudioNote has one of the absolutly highest prices you can get. Also they have the least materials in their system. Sound quality aside-

-Flo

To be fair to Audio Note though, it is not the quantity of the materials used, but more the quality. My understanding is that their Quality Control and Rejection Ratio for drivers and crossover components is high, as their tolerances are extremely tight. Q.C. testing takes time, and therefore raises costs.