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  1. #26
    RGA
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    There are no real advantages to buying from internet only companies - B&W and Paradigm etc may have a middle man - but they also build in far far higher quantities which more than makes up for a small guy cutting out the middle man. BUT, those companies don't make up for it becuase they also spend multi millions in advertising and becuase it's solely about turning a buck they want to use the cheapest possible parts they can humanly get away with.

    I would certainly take a chance on Internet companies if I didn't have to pay for shipping - I mean absolutely ZERO cost to me - often you have to pay shipping one way - BACK if you don't like them.

    Axiom is often compared to Paradigm - That to me isn't a particularly good thing unless you like Paradigm - if you do Axiom is a lot cheaper - so go for it. That is all you really need - if a LOT of people indicate that a specific Internet speaker sounds a lot like X brand available in stores - and you LOVE X brand but it's too much - maybe you make the gamble.

    Lots of speakers use excellent drivers and cabinets and don;t sound very good. The original Snells are considered by many to be some of the best spekaers ever built and use crappy drivers and cheap cabinets - and they charged a LOT of money back then for them - but it was the overall design that won the day and Snell managed to stay in business all these years(with worse speakers since). Even though "since" they use much better drivers parts and cabinetry.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    There are no real advantages to buying from internet only companies - B&W and Paradigm etc may have a middle man - but they also build in far far higher quantities which more than makes up for a small guy cutting out the middle man. BUT, those companies don't make up for it becuase they also spend multi millions in advertising and becuase it's solely about turning a buck they want to use the cheapest possible parts they can humanly get away with.
    Building in higher quantities that drive down cost is called economies of scale. Having said that what you wrote is confusing. You said there are no advantages to Internet buying because of economies of scale. Then you say the money spent on advertising and cheap parts raises the cost and lowers the quality of non-internet speakers. Which, logically, leads one to the point that perhaps there is some advantage to internet bought speakers. Perhaps you meant to say that.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I would certainly take a chance on Internet companies if I didn't have to pay for shipping - I mean absolutely ZERO cost to me - often you have to pay shipping one way - BACK if you don't like them.
    Agreed it could be a pain. The shipping cost means less to me than the friggin' hassle of mailing.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Axiom is often compared to Paradigm - That to me isn't a particularly good thing unless you like Paradigm - if you do Axiom is a lot cheaper - so go for it. That is all you really need - if a LOT of people indicate that a specific Internet speaker sounds a lot like X brand available in stores - and you LOVE X brand but it's too much - maybe you make the gamble.
    Again due diligence by the consumer. Read reviews, visit forums, ask questions and make your decision. For me, did all these things, tried the more inexpensive monitors first, was so impressed with them that I went up the quality ladder.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Lots of speakers use excellent drivers and cabinets and don;t sound very good. The original Snells are considered by many to be some of the best spekaers ever built and use crappy drivers and cheap cabinets - and they charged a LOT of money back then for them - but it was the overall design that won the day and Snell managed to stay in business all these years(with worse speakers since). Even though "since" they use much better drivers parts and cabinetry.
    I just KNEW someone was going to say this but I didn't address it. Didn't want to make my post longer then necessary. Of course drivers, cabinets etc are only part of the equation, good drivers/bad crossover can sound bad, etc. I shoulded have added all other things being equal including sound quality. Having said that the reputations of Vifa and Scan Speak drivers in a design at least give a passing nod to a recognition of an attempt at quality by the designer.
    Last edited by laspino; 08-21-2004 at 08:58 AM.

  3. #28
    RGA
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    Yes sorry for the confusion - Economies of scale say gives a B&W a huge advantage and more than compensates for the middle man. And if B&W or Paradigm or other big boys chose to they could buy mega bulk Scanspeak or Vifa drivers - they of course claim they build their own drivers because of a bunch of reasons - but it's because there is no oem driver and when it fails you have to go to them - plus you have no idea that your $2500.00 Big brand speaker MIGHT be using a cheap ass $0.49 tweeter.

    I am indeed supporting the notion of smaller makers internet or otherwise because in order for ANY of them to survive over the years they MUST build better sounding equipment in order to last because they don't have the distribution(which means less reviews and less advertising money). On the other hand the Big guys can afford the most expensive molding equipment can buy in bulk and can generally shred the little guy if they chose too. But why spend on Vifa or good quality cabinets when plastic works and veneer will convince most - make it look cool and ther you go.

    Plus many use advertising as an art - They will discuss endlessly about the tweeter or the woofer - look at B&W and Kevlar or Harman and white papers. I found it all interesting until I compare their stuff directly with a no name and the no name mops the floor with them in every aspect sonically that has to do with music replay. So I have softened to the smaller internet companies as a result. Frankly I don't like much in the $600.00 US price range - certainly nothing in the price range floors me - so I would be willing to gamble on ACI or Triangle or Axiom or Green Mountain Audio - because as you say they do at least use much better drivers and in many cases far superior cabinets and wiring - so since they're willing not to sell me something like the Paradigm Monitor X for $700.00 but actually give me quality maybe they're willing to give me a better design to boot.

    Unfortunately, as I said with Snell - the design is critical. My speakers use a SEAS 8inch paper Woofer because the designer feels that this specific woofer works best with the design and it in turn resembles the closest sonically to the Foster tweeter. But you could buy a far more expensive Scanspeak tweeter and get horrible results - There was thread on AA about Legacy who uses very expesnive parts but the design was argued to be atrocious as to how they mounted the drivers. But looking at the Axiom as an example the M80 looks quite beefy for the money - I know a fellow who compared them with the Studio 100V2 very favourably - well the Axiom is about 40% cheaper - also Canadian no middle man. This is hearsay however but it's someone I trust and the 100 is no groundbreaking earthshattering particularly great speaker IMO. I would risk it and try the M80

  4. #29
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    For the vast majority of cases it seems 'avoid factory direct speakers'. Why is that? Hell, ACI and VMPS were factory direct before the internet was made popular. Both companies have been in business for more than 25 years. The infamous white van speakers have been around for a couple decades now, even before everyone had access to the net. Yet people seem to shout the mantra 'don't order speakers from the net'.

    Is ordering shoes from the net any different? There you have something you will likely walk in everyday. You pay for shipping for most things you order over the net. In some cases delivery is free but you have to pay for the return. How are speakers any different from most other items on the net? It is simply standard business practice.

    One thing people tend to forget is if the company puts out a bad product the news will spread over the net like wildfire. The news can easily put a company out of business. Heck, Harmon Kardon had a QA problem a few years ago and still is suffering the effects of that.

    Unfortunately people would use and abuse the system if factory direct companies offered free shipping both ways. The company would eat the costs so much so it could end up being in the several thousand dollar range.

    Audition speakers locally and get an idea of what sound you enjoy. If you can, see if you are able to audition speakers such as ACI, VMPS, etc. locally. In any event, do your research. I did. To order blindly would be foolish.

    If anything, the net offers information and more options. I couldn't get the quality nor looks of my Rockets for the price I paid from a local dealer. Today AV123 is building speaker cabinets for multiple companies. VMPS is one of them. I do not know the names of the others at this time. Yet cabinets affect the sound as much as the speakers themselves, crossover, room, etc. In all this it is the consumer who wins. We have more choices and options for the small sacrafice of return shipping, even on top of a 30 - 45 day in home trial.

  5. #30
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    Thumbs down Avoid floorstanders at this price point

    For 600$, you will be better off with bookshelf speakers. All floorstanders I have listened to at that price point exhibit problems like, cabinet resonance, mid bass boom, bad driver integration, lack of coherance etc.... You get lots of bad quality boomy bass. If you don't mind these problems, you can go for it.
    I would suggest a good quality bookshelf speaker like dynaudio audience series, quad 12l etc.... They won't give you the last ounce of bass but remember that the extra bass you get from a budget floorstander is bad boomy bass. You are better off without that. Have fun.

  6. #31
    Veg-O-Matic ToddB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    There are no real advantages to buying from internet only companies
    There are if the nearest B&M dealer is 200 miles away, and doesn't do mail order.
    "Reality supercedes science."
    -- badman, 9/3/02, AudioAsylum.com

  7. #32
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    Check out the PSB Stratus Bronze. They are out of production now but sound great. You can pick up a pair used or demo for $600 or so. I think they are great sound and value.

  8. #33
    Forum Regular N. Abstentia's Avatar
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    Sounds you were on the right track when you had the Paradigm Studio's in front of you.

    And don't let anyone try to convince you that they use the 'cheapest parts possible'. Quite the opposite. The Studio line was designed with no price point in mind, only the best possible sound. Only after they were finalized a price point was set. And yes, Paradigm makes the drivers in house.

    Also, Axiom speakers sound nothing like Paradigm Studio's. Paradigm Performace line (Atom, Titan) maybe. But nowhere near the same league as the Studio's.

    Sounds like the Studio 40's are the ones you liked the most, put them on some 24" stands and they'll sound their best.

  9. #34
    RGA
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    "The Studio line was designed with no price point in mind, only the best possible sound. Only after they were finalized a price point was set."

    Thanks for the chuckle.

  10. #35
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    My pleasure. The schooling was free as well.

  11. #36
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    Hi soundslike,

    I don't think you have to avoid Best Buy or Circuit City as their return policy makes a home tryout feasible. The Athena AS-F2 seems like a good choice to me and is certainly in your price range. As a point of comparison try listening to a set of Polk floorstanders at CC. You can use your own music there and just see what you think. Frankly though, I feel you might best be served by spending some real time with the B&W DM602S3's. They're very good all round speakers and I think they'll give you what you want in regards to detailed sound. While you may feel limited in your choices locally, it seems to me that the brands available to you are very solid ones and you should be able to make a good choice from them. Sometimes having too many options makes things far more difficult than having a few good ones. That was certainly my experience in my last speaker search. One last suggestion if you have an Acoustic Energy dealer in your area you might find it worthwhile to audition the Aegis Evo 3 speakers. They are a very nice sounding small floorstanders if your budget will stretch to about $700. Whatever you decide, some of the best advice is simply to trust yourself. Good luck and give those B&W's a good listen!

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