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  1. #26
    RGA
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    More drivers and bigger drivers don't necessarily add up to more bass. It is not unheard of - in fact it is usually the case for me - that the flagship "so-called" speaker in a given companies line-up is usually not the best speaker in that line-up sound wise. The AN E - the bigger brother to my speaker puts out more bass depth than ANY Paradigm speaker currently sold and has just one 8 inch driver - and what is more fascinating is that even with Bass heavy music at high volume level you won't see the woofer move much if at all. Read this for a discussion about some bass issues http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?...70755&review=1

    By the way I liked the Monitor 9 from the little i heard of it much more than the 5 or the 7. They are a weird company who seems to be very hit an miss - kind of reminds me a bit of Rotel.

    Nothing is perfect - but if you absolutely end up having to buy a sub - then I would go with the Monitor 3 and add on the sub - that is if you must stay with paradigm. Also why not look at some used speakers - perhaps your dealer might have somthing you might find impressive - the Dynaudio Audience 82 if i was to look at a sanely priced Floorstander that sounds quite good would be my pick and should not really need a sub either.
    Last edited by RGA; 09-13-2004 at 10:46 PM.

  2. #27
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    More drivers and bigger drivers don't necessarily add up to more bass. It is not unheard of - in fact it is usually the case for me - that the flagship "so-called" speaker in a given companies line-up is usually not the best speaker in that line-up sound wise. The AN E - the bigger brother to my speaker puts out more bass depth than ANY Paradigm speaker currently sold and has just one 8 inch driver - and what is more fascinating is that even with Bass heavy music at high volume level you won't see the woofer move much if at all. Read this for a discussion about some bass issues http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?...70755&review=1
    Was this comparison done in the same room with both speakers in the same position? You've always said that the ANs are designed for corner placement, which of course will give a substantially different in-room response in the low frequencies than a speaker placed midway along the front wall. Corner placement maximizes bass reinforcement, but it's also the least consistent in terms of how even and balanced the bass sounds. Unless all of your comparisons were done with all the speakers in the corner, or all midway along the front wall, then you cannot say that the AN puts out more "bass depth" than ANY Paradigm speaker.

    Also, the lack of woofer movement has absolutely NOTHING to do with the performance or bass extension, if you know how ported speakers actually work. As you get closer to the tuned port frequency, the drivers actually move LESS because back pressure from the enclosure gets completely released through the port at the tuned frequency. If the sound is below the tuned frequency, then the cone movement is extreme (this is typically referrred to as "unloading") and totally uncontrolled because the back pressure that dampens the cone movement above the tuned frequency is no longer there. If you don't ever see the cone move on a ported speaker then either your source material does not have bass notes that go below the tuned frequency, or the speaker has a subsonic filter built into the crossover. A woofer that does not move is not some sign of superior design or even anything unusual, it's just something that occurs with ALL ported speakers as the sound gets close to the tuned frequency.

  3. #28
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slmcdonald7
    Thank you all for the fantastic input.

    With all of the questions posed, forgive me if I don't answer them all...

    Later this week, when I have more time, I will disconnect everything and start from scratch. Knowing me, it's very likely something got screwed up in my excited haste to hook up my new system . Good advice.

    As far as break-in time is concerned, I can say with absolute certainty that these have gotten well over 60 to 100 hours of use since I bought them a few weeks ago, so I don't think that this is an issue in my case.

    I will check on dealer return policies, but I will give these one more go before giving up. The nearest (decent) audio store is about an hour and a half away, so it's a bit of a time committment to get down there, thus (unfortunately) demo-ing speakers is impossible.

    In my frustration, I may have exaggerated the comparison on bass output with my Phantoms just a little. I doubt that the 11's put out less bass, but by looking one might think that they should put out more. I suppose that you can't judge a speaker by how it looks though . However, it could be that they created false impression of bass with the 'mid bass hump' (what an interesting idea). All the same, my initial representation was a little inaccurate.

    Oh... and "ThisGuy", if you had posted just 11 minutes later, it would have been much fitting

    As ts, Jimmy, N and the others have pointed out, the reason to go with muliple drivers like with the Monitor 11 is to help the MIDRANGE and the bass QUALITY. I've always made a point of telling people that the reason to get a subwoofer does not necessarily have to do with the bass extension but with improving the midrange. Low frequencies are the most physically taxing sounds to reproduce, and with drivers that have to do double duty with the midrange, removing some of the extreme lows from their chores really helps with the midrange.

    Both the Monitor 11 and Phantom are ported speakers, and their low end extension is dictated by the tuned port frequency. In ported speakers, once you go below that frequency then the drop occurs very quickly. Very often, speaker designers will make up for a speaker that does not go quite as low by voicing their speakers with a rise in the midbass. As N pointed out, you might not be used to hearing a speaker that does not have this.

    Also, the room acoustics matter a LOT. In addition to TS and BillB's suggestions, I would suggest that you simply walk around the room as the music plays. If you notice that the bass is more pronounced and fuller sounding in other parts of the room, then you clearly have a null occurring at your listening position where low frequency sound waves cancel each other out. If this is the case, then you need to move your chair to a different location and/or change the speaker positioning.

  4. #29
    Forum Regular N. Abstentia's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=RGA]The AN E - the bigger brother to my speaker puts out more bass depth than ANY Paradigm speaker currently sold and has just one 8 inch driver - and what is more fascinating is that even with Bass heavy music at high volume level you won't see the woofer move much if at all.

    [QUOTE]

    I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, there is no mention of Paradigm at all in that 'review' you linked to.

    Besides, even if that were true, you could buy a top notch set of Paradigms and a dedicated subwoofer for less than the AN E's and you'd have some serious LFE going on. No matter what AN says on their website, you can't order an off the shelf driver, slap it in a square box, and defy every law of physics ever written.

    One 8 inch passive driver can never outperform a dedicated subwoofer.

    Last time I checked, the more air you move, the more low frequency you have. An 8 inch speaker that does not move is not going to give you much low freqency.

    You don't seem to be helping Audio Note sell speakers with your bantering, in fact quite the opposite. I'd never heard of Audio Note until all this came about, and they seem like a jackass company to me. They buy their drivers off the shelf, and their enclosures look like they are straight out of the 70's. I'm glad you like them, but you're not converting anyone over.

    There I said it. Got it off my chest. Feel better now.

  5. #30
    RGA
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    Yes the issue of bass has been discussed on Audio Note enough on other forums. The AN E and J offer full range performance -they look like something out of the 70s because --- well --- they are in a way. They're actually out of the 1940s.

    Audio Note designs their speakers for corner use for reasons other than just bass depth - though it helps. The speakers are rear ported and typically not suited for corner placement - there are a lot of things that supposedly should not happen which does happen with their speakers. The speaker measure 16hz-18hz -6db(depending which ones) (22hz -3db) with usable response to 12hz ~(-10db).

    The issue of corner placement is spurious because the speaker was designed to sound best in a corner so that is where they are meant to be put. You can easily get bass depth from OTHER speakers by putting them in a corner but the sound wwould be horrible which is why you don't do that.

    You compare speakers by placing them in their "designed" position. The AN's typically do better in measurements than their own site suggests. Supposedly to get that bass they would have to seriously lose sensitivity - but yet they gain sensitivity over the others as well. Superior design by superior designers with 60 years of improving it.

    My issue is why can't the rest give you more than acceptable bass when their woofer systems equate to TWO plus 6.5 woofers after all that is up to 13 inches and SHOULD give way more bass than a single 8. Or the B&W N801 with an 8 and a 15 should too but doesn't.

    And it's not just about bass depth and bass loudness - but having only heard these kinds of speakers I guess you won't know what you're missing until you hear it. 2 years ago though I was in that boat too.

    I don't want to railroad the thread just pointing out the issue associated with driver size, quantity of drivers and bass to have exceptions to the supposed rules. The woofers in the J and E are set-up not to work like pistons or long throw designs. I see the woofers moving on B&W and Paradigms at moderate volumes with discs I don't see happend from AN's. Though that of course may have to do with as Wooch notes as the port frequency which would may be significantly lower ~29hz according to the Martin Colloms review with 17hz -6db

    Again not to railroad the thread I only wanted to get to the issue of the driver = bass extension thing because the speakers cost a lot of money as does quality bass no matter how you want to arrive at it. But to note that a lot of folks buy a speaker and then want a sub later because they are uhappy with the bass - bbig companies could have offerred a lot more bass the first time around - but then they might not sell you another box later if you were happy with the speaker fully in the first place - good way to keep selling though.

  6. #31
    Forum Regular N. Abstentia's Avatar
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    I dunno, I'm not to impressed with this commentary about Audio Notes room at the 2004 CES...keep in mind this room was designed by AN techs, and the equipment was hand picked by them:

    "We felt the smallish, monitor speakers used once again limited the body and dynamics and even the warmth of the sound in this room."

    Looks like AN isn't perfect after all.

    That's why I prefer mulitple drivers working together instead of one small one working it's arse off trying to do everything. All dynamics are lost.

    Here's the page, do a 'find on page' for the word kondo and you'll see it.
    http://www.audiofederation.com/catal...y-2004/report/

  7. #32
    RGA
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    I don't see the A/B listening though and you left out the "Musical yet accurate, detailed yet romantic, classical music played effortlessly with no collapsing of the soundstage nor rendering of detail into a wall of sound.

    Listening for a few minutes and judging a speaker is a bit spurious because plenty of other speaker will grab you by the scruff of your neck and have big DRIVE - problem is that DRIVE will be there STAMPED on everything whether it is there or not.

    By the way Kondo use different speakers. They should not be using the name Audio Note either - maybe these folks got confused.

    The E "The most expensive model in the test group did at least help justify its price with a top rating in the listening tests. Praised for providing loads of detail, subtlety and insight, this is a good all-rounder which draws its compromises very artfully, delivering an even overall tonal balance with excellent low bass weight and extension, yet also creating music with lively and invigorating dynamics."
    http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=475

    I'd like to know how much more bass tthey expect than 16hz and from a speaker that can rattle the walls. Perhaps they would prefer a very humped up midbass?

    Then there is another show take

    "The Royal Device Laura Studio Mk II with Miranda Horn was capable of a
    sparkling midrange and tonal opulence rivaling those produced by my Apogee
    Duetta Signature and Genesis VI. Then, the defining moment for the Italian
    loudspeaker occurred when it was conjuring up incredible low-level resolution
    resembling those from the Audio Note AN-E SEC Silver speaker, making it the
    next most resolute transducer Iíve auditioned." http://www.royaldevice.com/laurareview.htm

    Now i'm not saying you won't find speakers that have more bass - you will I have heard them myself - and there are a number of them - but the point is that JUST because a speaker uses bigger and more woofers in a bigger cabinet does not mean you'll get mroe bass or better bass. The AN E and J are proof of that.

    Consider that the review of the J in Blind listening sessions was done against competitors floorstanders. They did that beacause the OTHER standmounts because they pale sop ddramitically in the bass department would have had no shot. And even then the comment on the plus side for the J was STILL that it offerred a generous helping of bass(implying that the other floorstanders did not - and the floorstanders were in the $3-4kUS price range.
    Last edited by RGA; 09-14-2004 at 08:30 PM.

  8. #33
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    more power

    I think you need more power to really get more bass. And as others here have said in the past, 10 - 20 watts will not due it. I have a pair of the studio 60's. I was always a bit disappointed with the bass as well. They always sounded thin when I turned the volume above -20 db. They seemed to have a lot of bass when play softly, but it disappeared when turned up, and not at earth shattering volumes mind you. The same was true of the treble however. It would start to sound shrill when turned up too loud. However I assumed it was because I was powering it with a 85 watt amp. I bought a 250-watt amp, and wahlla, huge enormous bass and much smoother treble. So much so I had to readjust my sub woofer. My recommendation is to get a bigger amp. That being said, I think the studio series far out performs the monitor series. If I were you, I'd trade in the monitor 11's for a pair of studio 40's or 60's and eventually get a dedicated amp when you want to spend the extra dough. Just my 2 cents...

    BTW, paradigms web site lists the monitor 11 as a 2 ¬Ĺ way speaker, as a previous poster had mentioned.

  9. #34
    Listener MikeyBC's Avatar
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    Try unhooking the speakers and using a 1.5 volt "D" cell hook it up to the teminals + to + - to - all the woofers should move outward. I have heard of woofers being connected wrong at the factory. Then you'll know for sure its not a phase problem.

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