• 05-01-2004, 11:55 AM
    RGA
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NickWH
    You are right RGA, nothing in speaker design has changed in 20 years. Not the cabinet materials used, not the driver technology, not the crossover design. Certainly, there has been zero advancements in computer aided design and the manufacturing process. It's all just marketing hype in the hopes of getting your money. Those EVIL corporations!

    RGA, are you on the Audio Note payroll? I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit tired of the Audio Note info-mercials that you constantly post. It's great that you like your speakers and I'm happy for you, but 99.9% of your posts mention Audio Note (and/or Sugden) and it's getting a bit old. We all like the equipment that we own (obviously, that's why we bought it), but you are taking this to the extreme.

    If it were up to you, we'd all upgrade to Sugden integrateds and Audio Note speakers and there'd be no reason to post on this or that OTHER board anymore, because in your opinion we'd all have the PERFECT system. You are so diligent in your lengthy posts that it's as if you are getting personal satisfaction from recommending such products in the hopes of proliferating your 'poor' uncommercialized brands. Or, maybe it's just audio snobbery on your part.

    Somebody please tell me I'm wrong? Go ahead, flame me, I don't care anymore...

    You are correct that I do likely over expose a bias to these two companies. Part of the reason though is that most people have never heard them - and even more-so have never even HEARD of the companies. They are tough to find - not in every state or province - and when you don't advertise and the products are not in shiny packages then many will bypass them EVEN when they're in a local store.

    My posts reflect the price point of the poster and recommend an audition not to buy something unheard. The AN K spe is now priced at $2250.00US and I'll recommend it to those in that price realm.

    At sub 1k you'll see me mention B&W, Energy, PSB and possibly Klipsh, Wharfedale, Linn etc. Sub 1k amplifiers and I won't mention Sugden.

    I think the issue is the following. Most of us including me start with relatively inexpensive systems and we ALL get to know the players: Paradigm, B&W, PSB, Energy, Klipsh, Jamo, JBL etc. Then we we have more money $2000.00 instead of $200.00 we ASSUME that the players at the higher price points are these exact same brands. I may be happy with my Honda Civic hatchback but if I were to spend 100k would I not look at Ferrari? They have a specific interest in building the best sports car (whether it is or not I suppose is still subjective). With speakers and audio there are just SO many choices.

    A company like Reference 3a for a long time only made $6k and up speakers - few carried them. Samll magazines like UHF gave them, like Sugden a couple of reviews but alas most people could not afford them. Some of these companies like Audio Note and Reference 3a and probably the folks at Avante Guarde and Gershman Acoustics build their compnaies from a point of PASSION - since none of them will ever outsell a Paradigm or a B&W they MUST sell a superior product or one that is different and equal to be able to stay in business. Audio Note's owner was rich before he ever started the company - this is a hobby for him- he builds cost-no-object systems first and then works down. But the design is virtually identical and that is why there is a house sound. The B&W 302 I had does not sound like a N801 - no matter how B&W likes to talk about trickle down sound.

    And unfortunately you have me cold in that I think Audio Note is the best - at least of what I have heard - because the best system I have heard was an all Audio Note system - and at around $50kcdn it sounded better than many I have heard at several times the price. I'm going to want to tout that.

    Lastly I have heard the AN E Sec a 20kUS speaker - it has the same box design as their entry level $2500.00US model but with lesser cables/crossover and parts. But if the AN E is 80% the speaker that that the SEC version is then it would still be better than the N801 at $11,000.00US --- and that does not happen often and the N801 is an excellent speaker. When i heard them I was scratching my head - who the hell is Audio Note and how do they have more bass while maintaining a smoother midband and a more cohesive sound than the 3-way larger beautiful B&W N801?

    And not everyone will be partial to this kind of sound - some will be die-hard Electrostat lovers and I understand why - they have a distinct sound period. You won't convince them to buy or in some cases even try ANY boxed speakers because they believe ALL boxed speakers have too much colour. They are equally as passionate as I with their choice. I know why I would not want an Electrostat but I also know why people love them...so I say listen to different DESIGNS.

    Listening to a 604 and a Studio 100 and some other slim line design to me is listening to the same sound with slight alterations in the treble/bass etc -- listening to those against an electrostat will yield a far greater degree of DIFFERENCE in sound - or a Klipshhorn - or an Audio Note or an Avante Gaurde etc. Try and listen to stuff not stamped out of the assembly line-O-matic products.
  • 05-02-2004, 12:31 PM
    Mr Peabody
    Rga
    I beg to differ with your statement that there have been no improvements in speaker manufacturing over the last 20 years. If that was true, all our drivers would still be mostly paper. I believe that speaker companies like any other company has to continually improve on their product or they would find themselves outdated and out of business.

    It sounds like you hunted for a speaker to make Jessie's guitar sound the way you wanted it to rather than the way it was supposed to be. I have faith that all the expensive equipment you listened to could not all be wrong in the reproduction of the recording. Not that expensive equates to accurate, I just have a hard time believing that Sugden and Audio Note is the ultimate reference system. I do believe that you are thoroughly pleased with it and that's what counts in your book. You just paint with a wide brush of condemnation of other equipment.

    Obviously, the Evidence will do best what Dynaudio does in comparison to an Audience or Contour series. I am convinced from my listening that at any price point Dynaudio will be more accurate to the recording and the equipment characteristics than any other speaker offered at that price point or even higher to a point. The majority of recordings made are poor quality and accurate is not always the most pleasing. Then again, unless we were there during the recording and had photographic memory, accurate is as subjective as anything else in audio. Any of us who have heard live music though should be able to tell when they hear something that comes close. For instance, many listeners want strings to be warm and lush, I was recently listening to a string quartet in a college auditorium and they didn't sound like that at all. The instruments sounded somewhat cold, more like the way my Krell is criticized for sounding. I know there are many variables in this example but on most classical recordings my Krell and Dyn's reproduce strings more like the live strings I have heard. If tubes or Sugden make them warm and lush, and if that's what you like, that's fine, it's colored, not accurate. I guess the bottomline, we both can agree on, it comes down to personal preference.
  • 05-02-2004, 03:12 PM
    RGA
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    I beg to differ with your statement that there have been no improvements in speaker manufacturing over the last 20 years. If that was true, all our drivers would still be mostly paper. I believe that speaker companies like any other company has to continually improve on their product or they would find themselves outdated and out of business.

    It sounds like you hunted for a speaker to make Jessie's guitar sound the way you wanted it to rather than the way it was supposed to be. I have faith that all the expensive equipment you listened to could not all be wrong in the reproduction of the recording. Not that expensive equates to accurate, I just have a hard time believing that Sugden and Audio Note is the ultimate reference system. I do believe that you are thoroughly pleased with it and that's what counts in your book. You just paint with a wide brush of condemnation of other equipment.

    Obviously, the Evidence will do best what Dynaudio does in comparison to an Audience or Contour series. I am convinced from my listening that at any price point Dynaudio will be more accurate to the recording and the equipment characteristics than any other speaker offered at that price point or even higher to a point. The majority of recordings made are poor quality and accurate is not always the most pleasing. Then again, unless we were there during the recording and had photographic memory, accurate is as subjective as anything else in audio. Any of us who have heard live music though should be able to tell when they hear something that comes close. For instance, many listeners want strings to be warm and lush, I was recently listening to a string quartet in a college auditorium and they didn't sound like that at all. The instruments sounded somewhat cold, more like the way my Krell is criticized for sounding. I know there are many variables in this example but on most classical recordings my Krell and Dyn's reproduce strings more like the live strings I have heard. If tubes or Sugden make them warm and lush, and if that's what you like, that's fine, it's colored, not accurate. I guess the bottomline, we both can agree on, it comes down to personal preference.

    Firstly I think it's a dangerous game when discussing accuracy - a very popular paper on accuracy was written by Peter Qvortrup and showed up in Positive Feedback over several issues...it is the best audible gauge for a listener to determine accuracy and probably a reason why the AN E is used by Hi-Fi Choice and Stereophile as a speaker to measure gear.

    Sugden is not the best by any stretch --- it is the best that I could afford --- to me. I heard my Speakers with an Audio Note integrated that frankly wollops my Sugden but at the price it should.

    Paper woofers are still made by the likes of VIFA and are used mainly because they are lighter and faster than any other material while raising the sensitivity.

    As for new designs - disagree that they are better they are new for marketing reasons better? Not so. Different yes.

    As for what sounds better to me is of course the reason but it also sounds like an instrument. The Slim lines design speakers lack body and dynamic realism. I'm well aware of the Dynaudio Sound - I like their gear - but I didn't end up with it for a reason.

    I would not say Dynaudio will be more accurate to everything else unless you've heard everything else. The Contour and Audience line IMO sounds very good - neither for me is what I would choose.
  • 05-03-2004, 05:33 AM
    psonic
    S. Jensen - I happily own the Audience 60's, they do not suffer from exaggerated bass, more the tower version of the 50. The 62 may be worth a listen, it sounds very similar to the 52 and you can take the cash you save toward a power amp. The 4ohm dynes will push the h/k very hard, the sound will be more rigid, compressed, and sometimes strained at higher volumes compared to a power amp. It may also be bright and lacking in bass. The power amp run off your pre-outs would let you see some of the potential of those marvelous speakers. Yes, the other poster was right...you will be OK, the h/k will run them, but to a much lesser level than an amp. A used amp or a dealer in-home demo would allow you to test inexpensively. Not to knock the h/k, it just wasn't designed to sound it's best under a load like the dynaudio. I'd say dynaudio + amp is very good solution for you... :)
  • 05-03-2004, 07:31 PM
    Mr Peabody
    Rga
    You and I have agreed on several observations, Bose pretty much suck, as well as most Klipsch, neither of us are B&W fans, on Sennheiser and the sound of the MF X-can. But, on Dynaudio, what is the problem? You say you are aware of their sound yet you through them in with your stereotypical condemnation of slim line designs. Dynaudio is synonimous with dynamic sound. How can you say they lack dynamics? Unless you have heard them on crap electronics. Even with my Adcom gear the Dyn's had wider dynamics than the few others tried with this amp. By dynamics, I mean a wide frequency response and fast transcient response to produce a lively reproduction. The bass response is a stand out attribute because it is superior to other speakers I've heard. Something that struck me from the first time I heard a pair was the natural decay of cymbals. I would not trade my 2.5's for B&W's top Nautilus, not Revel's $10k speaker, nor Thiele, I have heard these and thought they fell very short in comparison to my Dyn's which actually cost much less.

    I understand choice. I love Martin Logan but Dynaudio is what I have at home.

    I know one big difference between you and I is the fact that you read a lot of audio magazines where I read virtually none. I feel they are biased. Most only cater to certain brands, usually the ones advertising with them. There have been a few things on Stereofile's A list that I have had a chance to hear and led me to question that validity. But this is another discussion.

    I might also add that there are those music lovers who are not bass fans. They are perfectly happy with a speaker that has a leaner bass response, like the "British" sounding speakers.
  • 05-03-2004, 10:09 PM
    RGA
    I'm not attacking Dynaudio at all - I would take the Dynaudio 52 in its price range now that the CDM 1NT is gone. But to me these were the two best I had heard in the price range. The CDM 1NT has a midrange suckout which knocked them out and the 52 is too laid back and while the treble was smoother lacked openness. Still I greatly like the speaker - but there is a reason they have a Countour line just as B&W has a Nautilus line - room to improve.

    I always listen with very good gear. I would say the lowest end gear I audition with is something like the top of the line Arcam Integrated...generally I try and listen with amps I know best. Unfortunately Dynaudio has been dropped here so I cannot get access to them for a while. Soundhounds is in discussion with Dynaudio to pick up the line though to replace Totem.

    I'm simply saying that both of us have a pretty hard passion for what we bought and we need to be careful when we speak in terms of "accurate" which is an unknowable quantity. There are too many design approaches - Maggie and stat lovers swear by em and I like part of the planar sound - I understand the appeal but they are not for me. I am also fully aware that Audio Note's sound will not be for some. One reviewer said he was not a fan of Audio Note speakers but when he heard it in the system he changed his mind - this simply illustrates that system matching is critical.

    If I based my opinion on the first time I heard the N801 I would have said the speaker sucked - with top of the line Classe no less. Listening with a Nuvista 11 watt tube amp in a non treated but VERY large room with the speakers 6 feet from all walls it was absolutely gorgeous. Problem is in a normal room they sounded very boomy with a bright treble.

    The Contour S1.4 ran into a lot of the problems many small standmounts I listened to ran into and it was dynamics and bass at higher SPL. Adding to this a difficult impedence and lowish sensitivity gave it a shu in sound similar to the Totem Model One. Though I prefer the actual sound to most other speakers I heard for around the same price it's awfully tough to go from a fullish range floorstander like my Wharfedales (despite the flaws) for something that sounds so small.

    It's simply an issue of taste cause I can recommend Dynaudio easily - but I have found looking back over all the speakers I have liked over the last 15 years and I like a more sensitive design. Inneficient small slim speakers are not, to me, dynamically acceptable. I'm not talking about bass but bass thins out quickly too - an attribute of most standmounts and pushed enough my speakers are not exempt from this. But there was a reason I favoured the Reference 3a MM De Capo over the competition for so long...Higher sensitivity bigger speaker physically with larger drivers and can play louder with deep realistic bass.

    And if you ever want to buy a SET amp which I wanted to remain a possibility the 3.7 - 33.1 ohms of the S1 is totally unacceptable - best not to have more than a 12 ohm swing. So I had a lot of factors when shopping - also the fact that I got the AN K at roughly half the retail price certainly didn't hurt matters.

    As for reviews: There was not a single review of the AN K spe anywhere - there still isn't except for a two line blurb from Hi-Fi Choice I only found months after I bought them. Most of the stuff that gets class A or B in Stereophile I don't like - or I don't think should get a rave.
  • 05-04-2004, 07:09 AM
    46minaudio
    Peabody you have to understand.RGA has the only opinions that matter.If he says the AN is better than the dyns well then it is a fact and we all have to accecpt it. All one has to do is look at his expert reccomendations.Hell you can go to a lawnmower forum where one asks for the best 48 inch lawn mower and he will reccomend the ANs.He says owner reviews are worthless,then turns around and quotes owner reviews of the ANs.He says print reviews are worthless then turns around and quotes printreviews..He babbles these long winded post about Stereophile then turns around and post ( the AN E is used by Hi-Fi Choice and Stereophile as a speaker to measure gear.).Need not worry though one day maybe we can all have ANs.We just need to dump our crappy DYNs, B&Ws,Paradigm,Klipsch,and every other speaker that is slim,metal tweeters,horns,palners,and just dont meet MR goldenear RGAs aproval..
  • 05-04-2004, 10:38 AM
    Prefuse
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    You and I have agreed on several observations, Bose pretty much suck, as well as most Klipsch, neither of us are B&W fans, on Sennheiser and the sound of the MF X-can. But, on Dynaudio, what is the problem? You say you are aware of their sound yet you through them in with your stereotypical condemnation of slim line designs. Dynaudio is synonimous with dynamic sound. How can you say they lack dynamics? Unless you have heard them on crap electronics. Even with my Adcom gear the Dyn's had wider dynamics than the few others tried with this amp. By dynamics, I mean a wide frequency response and fast transcient response to produce a lively reproduction. The bass response is a stand out attribute because it is superior to other speakers I've heard. Something that struck me from the first time I heard a pair was the natural decay of cymbals. I would not trade my 2.5's for B&W's top Nautilus, not Revel's $10k speaker, nor Thiele, I have heard these and thought they fell very short in comparison to my Dyn's which actually cost much less.

    I understand choice. I love Martin Logan but Dynaudio is what I have at home.

    I know one big difference between you and I is the fact that you read a lot of audio magazines where I read virtually none. I feel they are biased. Most only cater to certain brands, usually the ones advertising with them. There have been a few things on Stereofile's A list that I have had a chance to hear and led me to question that validity. But this is another discussion.

    I might also add that there are those music lovers who are not bass fans. They are perfectly happy with a speaker that has a leaner bass response, like the "British" sounding speakers.


    I agree. I own a pair of Dynaudio Contour 1.3mkII's and they are FAR from lacking dynamics. Perhaps RGA was referring to the Audience Line which I have not heard.
  • 05-04-2004, 05:28 PM
    RGA
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 46minaudio
    Peabody you have to understand.RGA has the only opinions that matter.If he says the AN is better than the dyns well then it is a fact and we all have to accecpt it. All one has to do is look at his expert reccomendations.Hell you can go to a lawnmower forum where one asks for the best 48 inch lawn mower and he will reccomend the ANs.He says owner reviews are worthless,then turns around and quotes owner reviews of the ANs.He says print reviews are worthless then turns around and quotes printreviews..He babbles these long winded post about Stereophile then turns around and post ( the AN E is used by Hi-Fi Choice and Stereophile as a speaker to measure gear.).Need not worry though one day maybe we can all have ANs.We just need to dump our crappy DYNs, B&Ws,Paradigm,Klipsch,and every other speaker that is slim,metal tweeters,horns,palners,and just dont meet MR goldenear RGAs aproval..

    First where did I say Dynaudio or B&W or Klipsh sucked? I was telling Mr. Peabody why I chose one speaker over another and I said all along that this was the sound I heard. A personal taste issue. Just as Mr. Peabody chose Dynaudio because the B&W and Klipsh did not live up to his criteria in one or more criteria. Some people choose B&W over Dynaudio too and some would choose the Paradigm over Dynaudio - especially if you're on a tighter budget.

    As for the reviews i have been over this numerous times. I don't support the notion that you should buy speakers off of a review - WHEN all the products from that reviewer get rave reviews. Not every product is excellent - or I should say not every product is excllent to all people. I ask you Mr. 46minaudio does the B&W N801 sound EXACTLY the same as a JM Labs Utopia to you? Both get class A ratings in Stereophile and both are very good speakers but does that mean you should just flip a copin and order one up - does that mean you would not much prefer one to the other? Maybe you like a class B or D speaker over what they gave a class A.

    Same applies to HiFi Choice - they review in a PANEL of listeners. I show a review from them because rarely does somehting ever get 5 stars - and even then I note that many of the 4 star stuff I like over the 5 star stuff. I add the reviews for Audio Note as more of an information guide about the speakers - but your point is taken that I should quantify that when I post the review. The fact is people like to see reviews. I can say reviews are irrelevant all I want - they are to me since I bought a speaker that has been around for decades and no reviews on it. But I also know most people are not like me and want to see reviews to help them feel better about what they are buying.

    My intention with the review is not to get you or others to BUY a speaker but put them on your radar so when you're in a shop and you see the plain looking Audio Note (Audio Note who?) that you might actually give them a try. Not everyone out there lives in an area that has a dealer the size of Soundhounds that carries 15 different brands of speakers that you can listen to side by side with the top end gear. If it was not for my dealer Audio Note would have completely went under my radar and I would own a significantly inferior speaker right now - TO MY EAR. Someone else goes in and might like something else - or may choose a nicer looking product (A vvery valid reason).


    It's not entirely different that movie reviewing. Is Ebert always right? never right? sometimes right? - or is it even an issue of being RIGHT at all. It's preference. You can find a critic/reviewer that you MOSTLY agree with and once you do you may rely on their advice and see something they say is good even if the preview didn't thrill you.

    Speakers are the same way. I dislike a certain sound - some people on this forum agree or hear things the way I hear them and will seek out my suggestions and give it a try...I recommend you try as much as possible. Potlicker owned a set of Paradigm Studio 40s and did not like their highs he found them to be bright he knows that was a complaint I had so he agrees with me on the speaker's general sound and decided to give my suggestion a try. Obviously if you're a Woochifer who loves the speaker then you're hearing it differetnly - though I did give the 40 a very very good 8/10. otlicker however had the same reservation about the speaker I did if you don't then you're fine I guess.

    I add the side stuff about what the revieweers own to basically advertise for the company because they don't advertise. Audio Note just started with a distributor in the US. Yet reviewers from Stereophile and enjoythemusic OWN the speakers in Enjoythemusic's case the J is their reference speaker or the one the reviewer personally owns. Yet Stereophile does not review Audio Note...they use them to test amplifiers though as a reference. What does this say?

    Distributorship comes into play and that is one reaosn I don't love Stereophile. For instance I was recently pleased that in the November Stereophile they reviewed the Sugden A21a a very impressive reivew. This amplifier has been around since 1989. But only now have they bothered to review the longest running amplifier in history. On the general forum I spoke to the reviewer who said it was the best integrated amplifier in its class. Ie; the best integrated for $1600.00. Yet since 1989 they had some MF or Arcam or Bryston given the class B award. Do you see where I am going with this? The company that did not advertise was not huge but was the best was completely missed. Stereophile reviews the big conglomorates and compares them to each other - great but that is different from comparing the best. This is why I have problem with reviews and why I always recommend you LISTEN to the gear for a long time and not let reviews sway you.

    Unfortunately, I have to use the reviews to support my recommendation or why the hell should you or anyone else bother to make a probably lengthier drive to seek them out? I would rather people NOT buy blind based on any of my recommendations - just to listen to them - not everyone can hear an AN K directly against the Studio 40, Reference 3a MM de Capo, N805, etc like I can and did.
  • 05-05-2004, 03:23 PM
    tqn999
    Is it same mood with the time "Norh" stuff again ?
    I haven't come back to this forum for almost 2 years, and now after reading through this post, it hurts me ... again, just like it did 2 years or so ago, when everybody talked about Norh, pros or cons.
    It seems in our audio community, some of us easily intimidated by the crowd, or simply want to be different, for example, if so many people have B&W, then I will look for something else, maybe unknown.
    I'm afraid of the old time, when the obsession of "new finding" causing so much contradiction.

    I just want to post for my personal opinion as a forewarn, maybe it's good, maybe it's bad, exploring new gear is good idea, letting other know about your finding is a good deed, but don't let it go too far. If any of us here still remember that "Norh" time, it scares me just to think about it.
  • 05-07-2004, 02:56 AM
    S. Jensen
    Back on track....

    Yesterday I auditioned the Audience 72 and 82 at my local dealer. The speakers were hooked up with the Harman Kardon AVR 5550 (The US model AVR 525) which is very similiar to my AVR 5500 (US 520). They have about the same specifications, but the 5550/525 is a 7.1 model.

    Besides the great sound, I was surprised how loud they could play on that receiver. The receiver did get hot, but even though it is an old model, it had not been used before. Perhaps that matters? Or is that a really bad sign? Heat seems to be a typical Harman Kardon problem.

    Now, the sound from the 82 was in a way bigger with more bass. During this thread a few people have noticed my emphasis on the speakers ability to perform some good bass, so that I don't need a sub right away. Well, I thought it was almost too much. There seems to be three obvious explanations for this:
    1: The Audience 82 has too much bass for my taste
    2: The receiver could not handle the 82, so that the bass did not sound right.
    3: The listening room was not big enough for the 82 to sound good. The room was not very big, and on the product sheet Dynaudio leaves out the option for using the 82 in a small room - but without saying what a small room is.
    (and the fourth option could be the evil combination of reason 2 and 3 ;) )

    The Audience 72 played very well from the beginning, they seemed to be easier to position also. Right away the stereo perspective was very good. Again this might be because the Audience 72 is a smaller speaker in a small room - and perhaps because the receiver could handle it better. I must say I really liked the way it performed. I have difficulties describing good sound in English as well as in Danish, so let me just say they sounded very good :p I missed a litle of the bass from the 82 I think - but just a little.

    Now, I am glad that I don't have to decide upon yesterday's session. The dealer offered me that I could bring home both pairs of speakers, so that I could listen to them in my own room for a weekend. I am really looking forward for that! I am excited about how the 82s will perform in a larger room and how warm the receiver will get. Right now it is a very close race between the two models - closer than I had thought.

    I will keep you updated! If you have any comments on my observations about heat from the receiver, bass performance, and room size etc. then please post a reply. Also: If any of you know of any tricks and hints for speaker testing, then please let me know.

    Happy HiFi to all of you - and best regards

    S. Jensen
  • 05-07-2004, 12:45 PM
    RGA
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tqn999
    I haven't come back to this forum for almost 2 years, and now after reading through this post, it hurts me ... again, just like it did 2 years or so ago, when everybody talked about Norh, pros or cons.
    It seems in our audio community, some of us easily intimidated by the crowd, or simply want to be different, for example, if so many people have B&W, then I will look for something else, maybe unknown.
    I'm afraid of the old time, when the obsession of "new finding" causing so much contradiction.

    I just want to post for my personal opinion as a forewarn, maybe it's good, maybe it's bad, exploring new gear is good idea, letting other know about your finding is a good deed, but don't let it go too far. If any of us here still remember that "Norh" time, it scares me just to think about it.

    I'm not sure who this is to but if it is to me I think you need to look more carefully at the two companies before you make a comparison. nOhr is an internet seller selling relatively mid level gear with really funky looks and possibly good sound - mixed reviews abound so I don't know for sure. There is no dealer network in the US.

    Audio Note is not as big as B&W - but then B&W isn't as big as Bose but I'm sure most would agree that B&W is 10 times the product maker that Bose is - so size doesn't count. Audio Note has been around for more than 2 decades and is both a retailer and a kit maker. In actuality the products have roots of more than 4 decades - so it is not a fly-by-night internet outfit that may pack their bags in two weeks.

    Audio Note is well known in high end circles for making the ELITE equipment because cost is no object. And while we can't rely on reviews to buy a product we can at least say they review Audio Note equipment. The highest review ever given to a digital product in Stereophile or Hi-Fi Choice was to the Audio note DAC 5 -- neither magazine has reviewed any nOhr product to my knowledge. It is also impractical for many magazines to review amplifers which sell for $250,000.00US or turntables at over $20k. If barely anyone can afford to buy it why review it? I'm amazed they reviewed the DAC which retailed for a stupid $49,500.00US and was not even the top model.

    I'm not saying these prices are WORTH the money at all - but it's up to the individual to determine "worth" as $50k to Bill Gates might be like a penny to us.

    I am an ex owner of B&W DM 302 speakers - and I regret selling them because they would have been great for my home theater - but because they change so drastically their speakers every few years the 303 would not match - nor would the new center channels. Oddly the 303 I find to be worse for more money in many areas. Granted worse is still better than everything else I've heard for the same money but oh well.

    B&W is a safe buy a good buy generally and easy to turnover on the used market --- I was not buying a speaker I figured I might want to turnover like the N805(as good as it is something had me doubting) Then I heard the De Capo from Reference 3a(another that can't be compared to nOhr) and the Audio Note K and my doubt for the N805 grew. Nothing against the N805 --compared to most of the big names it's probably the best IMO for the money

    Ohh and LOOKS play a factor - let's face it if looks matter then B&W wins against most of the competition and you don't give up a lot of sonics - hmm maybe that's the reason they're in the top 5 speakers sold. Good mix of both.
  • 05-09-2004, 01:08 PM
    S. Jensen
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by S. Jensen
    Back on track....

    Yesterday I auditioned the Audience 72 and 82 at my local dealer. The speakers were hooked up with the Harman Kardon AVR 5550 (The US model AVR 525) which is very similiar to my AVR 5500 (US 520). They have about the same specifications, but the 5550/525 is a 7.1 model.

    Besides the great sound, I was surprised how loud they could play on that receiver. The receiver did get hot, but even though it is an old model, it had not been used before. Perhaps that matters? Or is that a really bad sign? Heat seems to be a typical Harman Kardon problem.

    Now, the sound from the 82 was in a way bigger with more bass. During this thread a few people have noticed my emphasis on the speakers ability to perform some good bass, so that I don't need a sub right away. Well, I thought it was almost too much. There seems to be three obvious explanations for this:
    1: The Audience 82 has too much bass for my taste
    2: The receiver could not handle the 82, so that the bass did not sound right.
    3: The listening room was not big enough for the 82 to sound good. The room was not very big, and on the product sheet Dynaudio leaves out the option for using the 82 in a small room - but without saying what a small room is.
    (and the fourth option could be the evil combination of reason 2 and 3 ;) )

    The Audience 72 played very well from the beginning, they seemed to be easier to position also. Right away the stereo perspective was very good. Again this might be because the Audience 72 is a smaller speaker in a small room - and perhaps because the receiver could handle it better. I must say I really liked the way it performed. I have difficulties describing good sound in English as well as in Danish, so let me just say they sounded very good :p I missed a litle of the bass from the 82 I think - but just a little.

    Now, I am glad that I don't have to decide upon yesterday's session. The dealer offered me that I could bring home both pairs of speakers, so that I could listen to them in my own room for a weekend. I am really looking forward for that! I am excited about how the 82s will perform in a larger room and how warm the receiver will get. Right now it is a very close race between the two models - closer than I had thought.

    I will keep you updated! If you have any comments on my observations about heat from the receiver, bass performance, and room size etc. then please post a reply. Also: If any of you know of any tricks and hints for speaker testing, then please let me know.

    Happy HiFi to all of you - and best regards

    S. Jensen

    Can anyone give me some input or feed back on my experience with the Audience 72/82? Any thoughts?

    Best regards,

    S. Jensen
  • 05-09-2004, 10:01 PM
    RGA
    Looking a the specs it is actually evident that the 82 is the easier speaker to drive - and both should be fine. How much are these speakers? If I recall the 82 gets well over $2500.00. It sounds pretty good but requires a lot of juice to get it to actually sound open.

    I am personally a fan of more sensitive and easy impedence loads. For less money you could probably swing the Audio Note AN E / D standmount (or other high sensitive speaker) which will have deeper bass response and will be far easier to drive. Even the J standmount will clock in at 25hz bettering these models. (The money you save in amplifier power you can get a higher end speaker). This rview pits it against speakers all of which cost double to 5 times the price - the Klipshhorn is still widely considered one of the best speakers ever made - it is very good one of the few "classic" speakers I have heard. http://www.stereotimes.com/speak071701.shtm

    The dynamic ease you get with high sensitive designs to me is critical.

    Try and think long term - maybe when you upgrade from the receiver you might want to try a tube amp or Single Ended tube amps and the Danes will not like them - unless you have $10k for high watt tube amplifiers.

    As for the bass issue it may be a positioning issue - the 82 should probably be pulled a little more out from the rear and side walls. I had a flagship Pioneer Elite 125 watt RMS receiver and it sludged the bass of my Wharfedales - which in room response goes to 25hz - the receiver could not handle it and it sounded tubby - the Marantz does the same thing - bass comes out sorta like listening to your radio in the car versus the cd - instead of that tight bass(good amp) you get that droning flabby bass(receiver).

    The Danes sound good but don't limit yourself if your spending this kind of money - be patient and do as much homework as possible and try to cover all your bases. You may know for sure you may never want a tube amp which is fine - but those are some of the bases I would want covered - because resale on most is not pretty - plus it'sa hassle - high efficiency speakers can take any amplifier at any rating...low efficiency ones can't - and there is zero advantage to low efficency speakers and lots of drawbacks.
  • 05-09-2004, 10:34 PM
    RGA
    I should say before the Dyn fans flame me because my last post was not expressed very well - my reservation comes only with the speaker's difficulty to drive and my preference - the Dyn 82 Is the best floor standing speaker in the price class that I have heard as is the Dyn 52 in its price range. They offer bags of coherent sound. When I say conjested they are not conjested - just a more conjested than the E - but then so is eveyr boxed speaker I have heard so that is no insult.

    I would take the Dyn 82 over the B&W N803 a speaker I like and given the price I can think of no higher praise - you can't go wrong with the dyn's unless you're someone like myself who prefers high sensitive designs for the reason mentioned earlier.

    SO if my last post sounded like I was getting on Dynaudio that was not the intent.
  • 06-24-2004, 03:44 PM
    S. Jensen
    And the verdict is...
    I promissed af follow up this thread to let you people know what I ended up buying:

    I finally borrowed the Dynaudio Audience 72 and 82 from my local dealer and gave them a good listen with my own equipment at home.

    I was impressed how little difference there was between the two models. The 82 looks like it can outplay the 72 very easily. But listening to jazz there is hardly any difference between the two. Among others I listened to Diana Krall - it sounded marvelous on both models of speakers. The difference appears when you put on some rock music and turn up the volume. For instance on The Whites Stripes - ELEPHANT album you get some good bass and guitar which asks for high volume. Now the 82 gives you more and deeper bass and slam and the music sounds bigger than on the 72. No wonder - the speaker is significantly larger. I would like to point out that it is one of the main differences. And even then the 72 is close to the 82 in performance.

    My friends and I were overall very impressed by the Audience 72. In spite of its smaller appearance compared to the 82 it performed surprisingly like the 82 in many cases. Perhaps a more powerful receiver than my Harman Kardon could have pointed out the differences more significantly?

    During the test period my receiver only became luke warm. It got a little hot when playing very loud - but then again that seems to be typical of Harman Kardon. I did not have any positioning problems with any og the speakers. The 82 performed better (and satisfactory) bass wise in my living room which is bigger than the test room at the dealer.

    The final verdict was that the Audience 72 gave the Audience 82 a good fight. When it comes to rock music the 82 showed its ability to give the extra bass and punch. It sounded as if the music opened up a little more and sounded larger.

    It was VERY hard for me to pick the one to buy. Was the 82 really worth the extra money? I ended up buying the Audience 82. My versatile taste in music and the Audience 82's ability to almost make a subwoofer obsolete helped me to decide.

    I chose the Audience 82 - but I can truly give the Audience 72 my best recommendations. In my case it was a very close race.

    So, now I have a brand new set of Dynaudio Audience 82 with maple veneer finish playing in my living room. I am a very happy camper! :D They sound absolutely great and if the so called break-in-period really helps then I am in for an extra good treat. I am aware of the fact that a more powerful amplifier or receiver will take the speakers one or more steps up the ladder to HiFi Nirvana - and I might very possibly look into that when I save up some money again. Rotel, Arcam or perhaps Cayin (among others!!!) could be interesting to look into. Well - that can be a new post in this forum. ;)

    Finally I would like to thank all of you helping me out here! I appreciate all the inputs to take into account when auditioning speakers and search the market. I hope someone can use my thoughts and experiences with the Dynaudios at some point. In the case there are any Danish readers in this forum, I would like to thank KT-Radio in Odense, Denmark, who was very helpful and friendly. Free of charge they let me borrow the speakers and some cables for an extended weekend. Very good service.

    Best regards,

    S. Jensen
  • 06-24-2004, 05:32 PM
    Mr Peabody
    Congradulations!
    I am a convinced dedicated fan of Dynaudio. I'm sure you will have many hours of listening pleasure. You will notice that as time goes on they will sound better and better. Dyn's have an unusually long break in period.

    The dealer you mentioned does business the way it should be done and you auditioned the way it should be done.
  • 06-24-2004, 10:28 PM
    RGA
    The Dane 82 is one of the best floorstanding speakers I have come across for sane money - maybe the best one. Congrats. It was probably a good move getting the 82 over the 72. You can always upgrade amps by adding a power amp and preamp etc later - but you can't upgrade the speaker without taking a loss.

    More bass especially good bass is important for the structure of a lot of music. Generally 40hz is good enough for the vast majority of music - better than this and you're doing well.

    Congrats on getting an excellent speaker.