some basic questions and advice anyone plz help!

[mpbojangles]

Hey guys I'm brand new to the floorstanding speaker scene but I'm pretty sure that floorstanding is definatly the way I want to go as opposed to surround etc. I'm a college kid with a limited budget. I just have a few questions...

Is there any standout floorstanding speaker brand?

How much does a decent amp cost?

In terms of music only, how does a floorstanding speaker sound compared to bookshelf or other kinds of speakers in the same price range?

Are there any major cons to buying floorstanding speakers?

Thanks for the help in advance!

[Mr Peabody]

Floorstanding speakers will generally be able to play lower. If you have a small room where space is a consideration bookshelf speakers may make a better fit.

Your other questions are a bit ambiguous. There are several good brands of floorstanders. On amps, "good" is he operative word here. What's good to one may not be good to another. Give us a bit more info,, will the system be used for parties or critical listening, what type of music do you listen to and a big one, what is your budget?? Anything you can tell us to help narrow the field.

Are you wanting receiver, integrated amp or separates? An integrated amp is ne chasis with pre and power sections, add a tuner and you have a receiver, except, generally an integrated has better performance than a receiver. Separates, you have a preamp, power amp in separate chasis. Speakers will vary in power handling and efficiency. Speakers are usually a personal choice. It's good to get opinions so you know where to start but you will need to do some listening to get an idea of what you like.

[spasticteapot]

Hey guys I'm brand new to the floorstanding speaker scene but I'm pretty sure that floorstanding is definatly the way I want to go as opposed to surround etc. I'm a college kid with a limited budget.

Contrary to what the schmucks at Best Buy will push, you can get good, 2-channel bookshelf speakers. You don't need massive towers for bass, and you don't need a bajillion channels for music unless you've got a proper SACD setup.

Is there any standout floorstanding speaker brand?

DIY is not technically a brand, but you can build some remarkably good speakers for under $100. If you have a small room and can put the speakers in the corners (this is important), a horn-loaded single-driver speaker like the "Bigger is Better" may suit your needs very nicely. (While they're somewhat finnecky, a BiB has a big advantage over most speakers - bass to 30hz!)

How much does a decent amp cost?

It depends. A Sonic Impact T-amp is pretty decent and only about $30-$40; however, it really deserves some simple modifications. A pre-modified T-amp called the Super T-amp is $130, but is better built (shiny metal vs. cheap plastic), has a better volume control pot, better speaker binding jacks, and pretty much exactly the same internal circutry.

The big downside of the T-amp is the five watt per channel "clean" power output - to use them, you need extremely efficient speakers (like the horns mentioned above).

Alternately, you can build your own. A gainclone kit (chipamp.com) can be built up for under $150, and Tripath amps similar to the T-amp are availible in kit form as well(41hz.com), from the $27 Amp3 (10 watts clean power per channel) to the $80 Amp2 (up to 600 watts per channel if you build it right.) If you're new to soldering, a chip-amp or the Amp6-basic is your best bet.

In terms of music only, how does a floorstanding speaker sound compared to bookshelf or other kinds of speakers in the same price range?

Usually worse. Floorstanders are designed to put out more bass and be louder, so smaller speakers at the same price can be made to a higher standard of quality.

Are there any major cons to buying floorstanding speakers?

Unless you have a decent-sized room, they won't sound very good.

[mpbojangles]

Thanks for the replies guys. Yeah I realized my questions were a little ambiguous. To specify what I am into and what I want, I am somewhat of an audiophile and sound quality is of the utmost importance (over things like bass, volume, etc). I listen to bands like Tool, NIN, Radiohead, and am also into classical and other stuff that you can really hear the difference in a good setup. I've gone through a good amount of computer speakers and realized that they cant really compare to a good 'home audio' speaker. I am looking to spend around $800-1k total for a full setup.

When you guys say floorstanding speakers are effective based on room size, what size room are you considering? I am planning to put them in a room appx 20x30 ft.

Thanks again for the help guys.

[Mr Peabody]

In a room that size you should use floorstanding speakers and efficiency will help or you will need some watts. I like Dynaudio they are neutral and sound good with all styles of music. They aren't in your budget though unless you find some used and they aren't that efficient. I'm not a fan of many amps in your price, maybe take a listen to Cambridge Audio or Marantz integrated amps. Acoustic Energy would be a good speaker to listen to. You can usually put together a decent Adcom system off the used market in your price.

[mpbojangles]

what do you mean by efficiency? and how many watts are you talking? how many watts will a lower end ($200-300) amp deliver?

Thanks.

[Mr Peabody]

Speakers are given a rating either "sensitivity" or "SPL" that are given in dB. The higher the dB the more efficient the speaker is. This means it will play louder with less power.
3dB is about double the loudness. If two speakers were both receiving the same 50 watts, a 93dB speaker will play approximately twice as loud as a 90dB speaker. An average rating is about 89dB, below that is going to take some juice and higher will be pretty easy to get loud with smaller amps.

I saw Denon still makes a stereo receiver that sells or $399.00. Shopping around you might find one cheaper. I can't remember the specs, I noticed it while looking for something else but I do remember thinking it might be pretty good. www.crutchfield.com will allow a 30 day return if not happy with it. The only speakers they carry that might be any good are Polk. Paradigm is a pretty good speaker and make some in your price range.

Please go and do some listening before making a decision though.

[spasticteapot]

Speakers are given a rating either "sensitivity" or "SPL" that are given in dB. The higher the dB the more efficient the speaker is. This means it will play louder with less power.
3dB is about double the loudness. If two speakers were both receiving the same 50 watts, a 93dB speaker will play approximately twice as loud as a 90dB speaker. An average rating is about 89dB, below that is going to take some juice and higher will be pretty easy to get loud with smaller amps.
.

Not quite.

Volume is non-linear - doubling the amplifier power will NOT double the sound output.

Output is measured in decibels - almost all speakers become softer at almost exactly the same rate, so we measure them at one meter. Hence, db/w/1m is decibels at a watt at 1 meter.

Doubling the power output will result in a 3db gain. However, we interpret a doubling of volume as a 10db gain, so for doubling volume, roughly ten times the amplifier power is needed.

A pair of hyper-efficient Fostex-based speakers (103db/watt @ 1 meter for two FE167's in parallel) will be four times as loud as an ordinary 83db/watt speaker at the same amount of power.

If you want tower speakers (it's that or get some horns), there are many kits on the market, and I've seen some excellent speakers made for well under $800. Zaphaudio.com has some extremely well-designed plans for assorted speakers, many of which are well-suited to your requirements.

Another nice option is vintage. Speakerlab, Klipsch, and many other vintage speakers will give $800 speakers a run for their money for a quarter the cost.

[Mr Peabody]

In my example I used the same amplifier level. To double the SPL it would take 10 times the amp poer OR a speaker 3dB more efficient.

[spasticteapot]

In my example I used the same amplifier level. To double the SPL it would take 10 times the amp poer OR a speaker 3dB more efficient.

No, doubling the amplifier power is equivalent to a speaker 3db more efficient.

Doubling the volume would require a 10db more efficient speaker.

[mpbojangles]

Thanks for the info guys. To add to the arguement, I believe a 10 dB increase in loudness translates into twice the volume to the human ear. I will definately get out and listen to some speakers before I buy any.

One more question. You mention SPL is a measurement for speaker loudness and efficiency. Is there a measurement for sound quality?

[Dusty Chalk]

Not really. There's distortion, but that's not everything to sound quality.

[spasticteapot]

Thanks for the info guys. To add to the arguement, I believe a 10 dB increase in loudness translates into twice the volume to the human ear. I will definately get out and listen to some speakers before I buy any.

One more question. You mention SPL is a measurement for speaker loudness and efficiency. Is there a measurement for sound quality?

I think I said the first part about five times - that's correct.

The two things to look for are frequency response and distortion. The flatter the frequency response and the farther it extends, the more accurately the speakers will reproduce music. Distortion is a measure of....well, you already know what disortion is.

[Feanor]

Thanks for the info guys. To add to the arguement, I believe a 10 dB increase in loudness translates into twice the volume to the human ear. I will definately get out and listen to some speakers before I buy any.

One more question. You mention SPL is a measurement for speaker loudness and efficiency. Is there a measurement for sound quality?

Golly, a measurement for sound quality??? That really is the holy grail of audiophilia.

Frequency response and distortion measurements are possible as are horizontal and vertical dispersion plus other thinks. But there is absolutely not agreement on the relevance of these measures or even under what conditions they ought be taken.

[spasticteapot]

Golly, a measurement for sound quality??? That really is the holy grail of audiophilia.

Frequency response and distortion measurements are possible as are horizontal and vertical dispersion plus other thinks. But there is absolutely not agreement on the relevance of these measures or even under what conditions they ought be taken.

Frequency response is vitally important. I've heard two pairs of speakers, both identical except for a single difference: One pair had a tweaked crossover to eliminate "peaks", and improved damping (bits of fiberglass insulation to prevent the speaker itself from resonating like a bell.)

Telling the difference was easy.

[Mr Peabody]

I was checking on the web to find where some of our answers came from. It does appear that only doubling the amp power will double the perceived loudness. It also not correct to confuse efficiency and sensitivity. Speakers are only, depending n the article, 1, 5 or 10% efficient at turning electric energy into acoustic energy. Sensitivity is the SPL at a certain distance and power. Usually 1 watt, 1 meter at a certain amp voltage. I could not find what I was looking for on decibels. I know that 10 times the power thing came from wome where or it wouldn't be repeated so much. I'll be back if I learn more but it's to bed for now.

[Mr Peabody]

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/dB.html

OK, so I couldn't go to bed without an answer. Read it for yourself at this link and find it's not as simple as we want to make it. But +3dB is twice as loud.

[The13thGryphon]

Go to Audio Advisor (www.audioadvisor.com) and take a look at what they've got. They're good people, are knowledgable about their products, and they don't mind helping people who are new to audio. It is possible to beat their prices, but you give up the level of support (even after the sale) and assistance that they provide.

I agree with Mr Peabody. Cambridge Audio and Marantz make nice products in your price range... and Audio Advisor sells both Cambridge Audio and NAD, which is another brand I'm partial to when money IS an object.

While you're there, check out the Athena Audition AS-F1.2 apeakers. There is at least one person on this board who uses their direct predecessor, and very much likes their sound.

A system based around a Cambridge Audio 540A v2 integrated amp, a 540C v2 CD player, and the Athena Audition AS-F1.2 tower speakers will stretch your stated $1,000 limit by about $100 plus tax and cables... but it would be a very nice system and should meet your needs for years to come.

[Mr Peabody]

I read a little further and it appears for sound to seem twice as loud to the human ear it does take 10 times the power. I need to read the whole thing again, I guess what one quotes depends on the type of decibel (ie. dBv,dBi, dBa) The 10 times thing starts getting into fons and such. The bottom line, more sensitive he speaker the less power you need to drive it to a certain SPL. For exact, how much, get out the ole scientific calculator.

[spf]

The Athena Technology speakers are a very good "bang for the buck" example. I believe a pair of the AS-F2 floorstanders would come in at around $550 -$600. These are remarkably accurate speakers for the price and have a fairly flat freq. response down to 35-40Hz (+/- 3dB) which is plenty for most types of music.

This is another one of those subsiduary companies of a larger parent, in this case, Audio Products International (API) which is in fact a Klipsch consortium company. The beauty of this is that there is a great opportunity for "trickle down" improvements in different lines. API is also the parent company of Mirage and Energy so you know there are some great designs in this family.

Mr. Peabody is definitely right though about auditioning the speakers. Sound quality is only part objective and mostly subjective. What sounds good to you may not sound good to another. Good luck bud.

Shane