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  1. #1
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    Do I need floorstanding speakers?

    I'm looking to buy a large 15" sub or dual subs and I'm wondering if with that much low output do I still need my studio 100's. I originaly bought them because I wasn't getting a sub and wanted to cover the lows better. So with a sub I'm thinking I could get a pair of big bookshelf speakers that are better quality than my 100's or would I need the towers to covers the mids better? I listen to music like NIN, Tool, Crystal Method, mostly rock and some rap. Thanks -Mark

  2. #2
    Forum Regular paul_pci's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_IDT
    I'm looking to buy a large 15" sub or dual subs and I'm wondering if with that much low output do I still need my studio 100's. I originaly bought them because I wasn't getting a sub and wanted to cover the lows better. So with a sub I'm thinking I could get a pair of big bookshelf speakers that are better quality than my 100's or would I need the towers to covers the mids better? I listen to music like NIN, Tool, Crystal Method, mostly rock and some rap. Thanks -Mark
    There's a really simple, untechnical answer here. Since you already have your 100s, integrate the new sub or dual subs into your listening environment and see, or rather, hear for yourself how the lows are handled between the towers and sub(s). When listening, it should be relatively easy (don't make a snap decision) if the subs do a better job handling the lower end of the frequency than do your 100s. Of course, if you're looking for a technical answer, others here will remind you that rock music goes down to 40hz at best and you should know by now how well your 100s meet that frequency to your satisfaction.

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    On there own I'm aware they go down to 32-35 hz. I have them setup now in a Bi-amp config using a marantz sr-8000 5.1 reciever. The front channels power the high and the surrounds the low and I run it on 5ch with the surround channels +10 db. I have a cc also but never got surrounds. Setup like this there is a significant bass improvement obviously but I want much more. I listen to it setup this way at -10 max and am always listening for any cliping sounds and keep it 2-3 db lower than any volume I hear them on. So that gives and idea of what I require from a stereo.

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    Audiophile Wireworm5's Avatar
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    I'm surprised your 100's don't have enough bass. If I send the lows to my 100s I have more than enough bass( powered by a Bryston 3b st) and its better than my sub. But the volume I play music at my amp clips so I let my sub handle the frequencies below 80 hz. And I listen to demanding bass music, not rap however and maybe a 15" sub would be better for that.

  5. #5
    Forum Regular paul_pci's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wireworm5
    I'm surprised your 100's don't have enough bass. If I send the lows to my 100s I have more than enough bass( powered by a Bryston 3b st) and its better than my sub. But the volume I play music at my amp clips so I let my sub handle the frequencies below 80 hz. And I listen to demanding bass music, not rap however and maybe a 15" sub would be better for that.
    You raise a good question about power. The Marantz is no sissy, but on the other hand, maybe the bass in the 100s would sing better through dedicated 2-channel amplification. Perhaps, Mark, you could do a home audition of a good amp and listen for the difference.

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    Bingo!

    Quote Originally Posted by paul_pci
    You raise a good question about power. The Marantz is no sissy, but on the other hand, maybe the bass in the 100s would sing better through dedicated 2-channel amplification. Perhaps, Mark, you could do a home audition of a good amp and listen for the difference.
    I listened to series 100's extensively when auditioning and the difference the increase in quality/quantity of amplification fed to those models are more significant than with most.
    I heard them with everything from a 80 watt Denon AVR to a 250 Watt Mark Levinson (and a few things in between) and they sound like totally different speakers. I'd say you can definitely get more more ooomph out of them by going to a outboard two channel amp. As mentioned...the Marantz is no slouch, so you would need a significant upgrade (Bryston 4B?) to hear a major difference...but based on what I heard, it CAN make a major difference.

  7. #7
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wireworm5
    I'm surprised your 100's don't have enough bass. If I send the lows to my 100s I have more than enough bass( powered by a Bryston 3b st) and its better than my sub. But the volume I play music at my amp clips so I let my sub handle the frequencies below 80 hz. And I listen to demanding bass music, not rap however and maybe a 15" sub would be better for that.
    20Hz would be enough bass to set them to lg. I dont think you need a 15" to do what you want.
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    it's not that I can't hear the low notes I can but I'm looking for more output. The question here is not do I need a sub or not cause I most definately do. The question is will floorstanding speakers be needed to hear the midrange and upper bass frequencies with that sub playing low and loud. I guess basically what I'm wondering is will thoese 2 8" woofers still serve a purpose. I would be running the 100's (which are v.2 by the way) at full range with a sub so thoese woofers wouldn't be putting out nearly what they are now sence they would be playing the same volume as the highs. I am thinking of selling my cc and 5.1 reciever for a good 2ch integrated amp but there is no way that it will have more bass than my marantz does now cause it would no longer be bi-amped allowing me to adjust the volume of the highs and bass indepently. I've had both 100's in 1 corner facing the wall and setup with the highs disconnected so that they were basically a sub and my CC was all I had covering the highs. It had closer to level of bass I'm looking for like that but I'm obviously not going to stay using them like that. I want my bass to be loud like you hear at good nite club or small concert and my mids and highs to be equally loud so they can be heard with that kind of bass. If I can achieve that with good large bookshelves I would perfer their easier mobility over my towers but I don't want to sacrafice sound at the same time.

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    I think the less frequency range your subwoofer needs to cover the better, so if you have floorstanders that go very low, that's good cuz it leaves your sub to deal with the frequencies that it does best.. the low ones. This of course is really general and will depend on your sub and your speakers and how well they blend together. If all you want is to emphasize the bass a bit more I say add the subs for now.. see how it works, then experiement later with some monitors.

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  10. #10
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_IDT
    it's not that I can't hear the low notes I can but I'm looking for more output. The question here is not do I need a sub or not cause I most definately do. The question is will floorstanding speakers be needed to hear the midrange and upper bass frequencies with that sub playing low and loud. I guess basically what I'm wondering is will thoese 2 8" woofers still serve a purpose. I would be running the 100's (which are v.2 by the way) at full range with a sub so thoese woofers wouldn't be putting out nearly what they are now sence they would be playing the same volume as the highs. I am thinking of selling my cc and 5.1 reciever for a good 2ch integrated amp but there is no way that it will have more bass than my marantz does now cause it would no longer be bi-amped allowing me to adjust the volume of the highs and bass indepently. I've had both 100's in 1 corner facing the wall and setup with the highs disconnected so that they were basically a sub and my CC was all I had covering the highs. It had closer to level of bass I'm looking for like that but I'm obviously not going to stay using them like that. I want my bass to be loud like you hear at good nite club or small concert and my mids and highs to be equally loud so they can be heard with that kind of bass. If I can achieve that with good large bookshelves I would perfer their easier mobility over my towers but I don't want to sacrafice sound at the same time.
    No,boolshelf will work great and the money you save you can get a better sub.
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  11. #11
    Forum Regular vr6ofpain's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_IDT
    On there own I'm aware they go down to 32-35 hz. I have them setup now in a Bi-amp config using a marantz sr-8000 5.1 reciever. The front channels power the high and the surrounds the low and I run it on 5ch with the surround channels +10 db. I have a cc also but never got surrounds. Setup like this there is a significant bass improvement obviously but I want much more. I listen to it setup this way at -10 max and am always listening for any cliping sounds and keep it 2-3 db lower than any volume I hear them on. So that gives and idea of what I require from a stereo.
    How are you listening to your sources, in 5.1 surround? I would think that only having the surround channels feeding the low inputs on your speakers would sound like hell, since the only signal they would be getting is for the surround channels. Please tell me you receiver allows you two run the rears channels with the front signal....
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  12. #12
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    I actually switched some stuff today after reading my marantz manual. I didn't know what the large and small settings did and after reading it I have set it up so that the front channels are on large and power the woofers. The surround channels power the highs and are set to small although with the crossover in my speakers it probably dosen't matter if I clip under 100hz. I play everything on 5ch stereo all 5 channels get the same signal. This way I can turn up the volume to the main channels (which power the woofers) to +10. I once tried hooking up a 2 ch power amp to power the subs alone but sending it the main pre outs from my reciever didn't allow me to turn up the volume independly. The 2 ch amp had volume controls but at full volume it only matched the recievers volume so I couldn't get the effect I am now. If I had seperate amps for all 5 ch and a processor it would have worked but sence I never got surrounds I'm switching to a 2ch setup that's more music oriented.

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    Quote Originally Posted by corwin99
    I think the less frequency range your subwoofer needs to cover the better, so if you have floorstanders that go very low, that's good cuz it leaves your sub to deal with the frequencies that it does best.. the low ones. This of course is really general and will depend on your sub and your speakers and how well they blend together. If all you want is to emphasize the bass a bit more I say add the subs for now.. see how it works, then experiement later with some monitors.
    So instead of the sub covering 80hz and below run it at say 60hz and below if I have mains that cover down to 60hz well. I'm just using 60hz as an example. Is it not good to over lap frequencies between the mains and sub? Will I have cancelation issues if say I run my mains fullrange and they go down to 35hz and my sub covers 20-80hz?

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    Audiophile Wireworm5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_IDT
    So instead of the sub covering 80hz and below run it at say 60hz and below if I have mains that cover down to 60hz well. I'm just using 60hz as an example. Is it not good to over lap frequencies between the mains and sub? Will I have cancelation issues if say I run my mains fullrange and they go down to 35hz and my sub covers 20-80hz?
    As was already mentioned your Marantz is probalby a good receiver. But if it's like my Yammie although it could power the 100s it was immediately obvious how much more authority the bass had hooked up to a power amp. My Yammie however had quite a speaker load and perhaps this was a factor. I tried two other receivers I have as well in a bi-amp configuration and the speakers just sounded like ass.
    As for your bass preference I think your describing what I call reinforced bass. Don't mean to brag... okay I am bragging. But I have 3 sets of floorstanders and a sub so where talking bass here. Last night after reading your post I decided to send the bass to both the sub and the 100's, now that's bass. As for bass cancelation or boominess this will depend on your room.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_IDT
    So instead of the sub covering 80hz and below run it at say 60hz and below if I have mains that cover down to 60hz well. I'm just using 60hz as an example. Is it not good to over lap frequencies between the mains and sub? Will I have cancelation issues if say I run my mains fullrange and they go down to 35hz and my sub covers 20-80hz?
    Yeah, i think crossing the sub over lower would give better performance. Overlapping is a matter of personal preference.. from what you've said it sounds like you like a slightly exaggerated bass more so than the natural amount.. so you'll probably want to cross it over higher. The 20-80hz isn't quite as simple as that, since there are crossover slopes and roll-off slopes... so you don't necessarily want to run your sub at the point where your mains "stop" (on paper).

    You shouldn't have any cancellation issues unless your sub is playing out of phase, but then some funky room acoustics can cause this to happen as well i've heard. Does your sub have a Phase setting? If so you can just fiddle which it to see if you are getting any of that. I've never really experienced much phase cancellation with home subs and speakers, but in my car i have with my subs... so i'm probably not the best person to ask about phase cancellation in home audio.

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    I guess a better way to ask what I'm trying to figure out is: Once I get a sub could I down grade my 100's for 40's and still be covering all the frequencies just as well? In this situation both would be run at fullrange (no more bi-amping the 100's) and a higher quality 2ch amp was in the plan anyway. I know that when I play my 100's fullrange thoese 8's barely move so I figured something smaller would still work. I'm trying to get an idea if the 40's or something similar will be able to play loud enough to match such a big sub playing to it's extent.

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    I personally think sound should remain stereo regardless of frequency. I've tried moving a single sub all over the place but it just doesn't sound right unless there's two of them wired in stereo.. So if i were you i'd keep the towers and try and keep the directional sound to as low as possible, and just use the sub to reinforce the bass.

    Your best bet is just to try it and find out. Buy some smaller monitors and see if it works, if it don't, return 'em!

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  18. #18
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by corwin99
    I personally think sound should remain stereo regardless of frequency. I've tried moving a single sub all over the place but it just doesn't sound right unless there's two of them wired in stereo.. So if i were you i'd keep the towers and try and keep the directional sound to as low as possible, and just use the sub to reinforce the bass.

    Your best bet is just to try it and find out. Buy some smaller monitors and see if it works, if it don't, return 'em!
    Towers or bookshelfs,most set the x over to 60/80Hz and even more set all the speakers to small. If you had those kind of sub problems you didnt find the right setup. I can not tell my sub is even working. I have to get up and walk over to my speakers{towers set to small with a 80Hz x over} to see if indeed the bass is coming from them but its not,that the real good deep bass. Tricks me all the time. Thats the right setup.
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