Ceiling speakers questions

[calrissian]

So I have a new house currently under construction, which is including as part of the package pre-wiring for surround sound in the family room. I was looking at the wiring setup yesterday, and realized that I need some orientation to the world of in-ceiling and in-wall speakers.

Currently, I have a hodge podge 5.1 system. I'm using a nice Onkyo 7.1 system (SR something or other, priced in the 900-1000 range 2 years ago), a 15-year old set of B&W bookshelf speakers as my L and R, and a set of JBL center and SL/SR speakers that are about 12 years old. They were probably mid-priced from JBL when I bought them. I'm using a Velodyne sub that's about 10 years old.

When I'm looking at the wiring for new setup, I have in-ceiling placement for 4 speakers, and a in-wall placement for the center channel. I have never dealt with either in-ceiling or in-wall speakers, so I feel like I'm coming at this as a rookie. My main interest is home theater. Here are a few questions:

1) Are there in-ceiling speakers that work well as L/R speakers, or do people primarily use those for rear channels?

2) Are there particular brands I should pay attention to? Yamaha and JBL came to my mind along with B&W, but I don't follow it that closely if there are particular brands that are particularly loved. I'd like nice speakers, but I can't afford super-audiophile level, so I'm always watching out for that "bang for the buck" sweet spot.

I've got some time before construction is done, but I wanted to start getting advice and begin my research.

Thanks for any advice!

[rob_a]

Check out these site.

www.outdoorspeakerdepot.com
www.monoprice.com
www.partsexpress.com

They have a lot of in wall and in ceiling products.

Most "audiophiles" do not care too much for in wall systems, but there are some good brands to check out. PSB makes some and Axiom just came out with a new series.

I would go in wall over in ceiling for a surround set up, but if it's just for sound more then anything then in ceiling is fine.

[Breezer88888]

Calrissian,
Since you are lucky enough to be in construction phase of your project, I would suggest creating a "back box" for the in-wall speakers to help keep the sound from spreading behind the walls. This should create a tighter sound, and insulate unwanted sounds (somewhat) from nearby rooms or floors. It won't be perfect, but should be a worthwhile measure. The back box can be simple plywood and follow a dimension that suits the wall space that your speakers will go into. I don't know how this will work for in-ceiling speakers though.

One other thing. I noticed that you have a mixture of speakers (your fronts are B&W fronts with a JBL center). Not to blow the budget, but this might be a good time to consider matching the speakers. Maybe you already have fine tonal balance. But if not, maybe you have the opportunity to favor one brand and its model line? Just a suggestion since you posted the question.
Good luck!

[manlystanley]

So I have a new house currently under construction, which is including as part of the package pre-wiring for surround sound in the family room. I was looking at the wiring setup yesterday, and realized that I need some orientation to the world of in-ceiling and in-wall speakers.

What I did when I built my home theater / Listening room is:
-- Install four in wall-speakers for the back and surround sound speakers.
-- Then pre-wire in the front wall jacks for the external speakers.
-- Put all the equipment in the back with wall sockets as well for the 7.1 sound system and HDMI cables.

I've been very pleased with this layout. It allows me to upgrade my front speakers, and then when I sit, the front looks very clean and not distracting. I'd suggest that you put either 12 or 10 gauge wire in-wall. For longer wire runs, bass response can really suffer with lower gauge speaker wire.

Best Regards,
Stan

[manlystanley]

Calrissian,
Since you are lucky enough to be in construction phase of your project, I would suggest creating a "back box" for the in-wall speakers to help keep the sound from spreading behind the walls. This should create a tighter sound, and insulate unwanted sounds (somewhat) from nearby rooms or floors. It won't be perfect, but should be a worthwhile measure. The back box can be simple plywood and follow a dimension that suits the wall space that your speakers will go into. I don't know how this will work for in-ceiling speakers though.

Great point. I built boxes for my four in-wall speakers too. What a huge sound improvement it was.....

Best Regards,
Stan

[calrissian]

thanks for the replies. Helpful stuff to think about.

Given the timing, I'll probably not be able to build in the back boxes. Insulation is going in today, and the drywall is coming next week while I'm out of town. I think I'd have to delay the builder to put in something else.

I guess I was surprised when I saw how they laid out the surround system. I was expecting the fronts and center to be wired for the wall and the rears to be wired for the ceiling. They wired the center as expected, but they put the other four in the ceiling. The space where the TV will be hung is in a set back area, so the builder speculated that the sound guys thought acoustics would be better by having the fronts out beyond the setback. He's going to verify that with them before putting in the insulation and drywall.

As I've never run a 7.1 setup, I don't know much about the placement of 4 surround speakers. With two of the ceiling speakers in front of the viewing location and two behind, can those two fronts be used as part of a surround array? If not, I'll definitely go with a 5.1 setup. The only concern with wires or clean look is not having wires to the rear. Everything else is just bonus.

Oh, and definitely no offense in saying I should consider matching speakers. I was just given those B&W's some years ago, and they've always been nicer pieces than what I could afford on my own. If I get a new set, I'd definitely be interested in a matching (there's another room I can use those speakers in). It will just mean I'll be VERY interested in "bang for the buck" setup.

I was reading some interesting reviews on Paradigm's ceiling speakers. Anyone have any experience with them?

Thanks!

[Breezer88888]

Here's a suggestion. It might be worth it for your contractor to build the back boxes since you don't have time. I know that the DIY approach would be more satisfying, but we can't do everything we want to. I think in the long run you'll be happier.

As for the set-up, I am envisioning that your front L/R would fire from the ceiling. Did you mean the Surround L/R and Back L/R are in the ceiling? In which your existing B&W bookshelf speakers would really be the Front L/Rs for a 7.1 set-up? That could work.

If you're going with 5.1, then even with in-ceiling speakers that can be "aimed" or "pivoted" toward the seating area, I don't think you will get as much satisfaction when compared with forward firing in-walls (or free standing speakers). I know this causes you stress, but I'm thinking of the saying "measure twice, cut once" - you just don't want to have any big regrets in a project like yours. I would take a stand on this one with your contractor to insist. I've been down this road before and it will cause (and cost) you extra time, but the result is likely to be worth it.

[calrissian]

Thanks. I'll talk to my contractor about the back boxes idea.

On the ceilings, I was just trying to think flexibly about the idea. If I wind up with the 4 ceiling speakers, I was curious about surround placement, and if that design could be a viable 7.1 setup. I've just never placed 4 surround/rear speakers, and didn't know if they all needed to be behind the listening point. If they were used that way, I wouldn't mind using freestanding fronts (including keeping my B&W's for now).

On speaker boxes, I know that I will have it wired for a center channel in wall, regardless of what happens on the placement of the L/R channels. How big a deal is to build a box for the speaker after the fact?

[Poultrygeist]

You might want to check out infinite baffle subwoofers. There's a whole forum devoted to them. They would be an easy install for a home under construction.

[Breezer88888]

Placement of in-walls and in-ceilings are tricky. Basically you can't move them once installed. It's easier to move your furniture. In a 7.1 configuration, the surround L/Rs in the ceiling should ideally be slightly behind you, or at least directly to your left and right. And the surround backs should be behind you. I have a 7.1 set-up with stand-alone L/R towers, a center, and in-walls for surround L/R (at 90 degrees) and surround back L/R.

But if the in-ceiling front L/Rs are significantly in front of you, then I'd be a bit frustrated because my choices are limited. Sorry if this causes you stress. I'll stop here since I may not have the complete picture and it could still be fine. If you have the advice of your "sound guys", then let them provide the advice needed.

Good luck - but please let us know how it goes over time.

[calrissian]

I had my GC talk to his sound guys today, and they agreed that the in-wall fronts would be better than in-ceiling for that room, so they're changing the setup. This will greatly simplify things. Now, I'll have a 5.1 setup, with the rears in-ceiling (and well-positioned for that room) and the fronts and center well placed up front. Looks like I'll be looking out for in-walls for the LCR speakers and in-ceilings for the rears.

Thanks for the advice all!