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For Bose, I am not too impress with their products. I'll have to admit the Bose store has very friendly people around with pretty good set ups and demos. The only product from Bose that I would consider is their ipod docking station.
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I like Paradigm a lot too. I heard their top of the line reference series at HT2005 and that had to be one of the best HT systems I've ever heard. The problem with Paradigm is that you can really get lost putting together a system from them, as they make so many levels of speakers. I like the fact that Axiom has dedicated themselves strictly toward Home Theater and you can see exactly how the progression of the systems go. At the 2k price point for a total system I think Axiom holds an edge.
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Not to jump on the Bose bash-wagon, but it's always fun to go to a Bose showroom and give the sales rep a little education. I did this last here in Newport beach in their Fashion Island location (some of us refer to it as Fascist Island). If you do go back to the Bose store, here's some fun activities, especially when the store is crowded with other would-be victims:
- Insist on getting specs on the speakers
- Bring ads from competing brands (with specs)
- Bring your own music (Massive Attack is a great band to push Boses to their limits)
- Plug up the woofer-vent and comment (loudly) how tinny the speakers sound
- Ask what the cones are made of
- Ask what the difference is between a tweeter and a woofer
- Ask how such small speakers can put out big sound
- Ask how to add your own subwoofer
- Ask why the price is so high by pointing out the plastic construction
- Comment on how many people work in the store and how expensive the decor seems
- Ask if you can bring in your own system to "compare"
If you still haven't been kicked out of the store, ask how you can start your own Bose reseller store, after all, the profit margin must be huge....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
Not to jump on the Bose bash-wagon, but it's always fun to go to a Bose showroom and give the sales rep a little education. I did this last here in Newport beach in their Fashion Island location (some of us refer to it as Fascist Island). If you do go back to the Bose store, here's some fun activities, especially when the store is crowded with other would-be victims:
- Insist on getting specs on the speakers
- Bring ads from competing brands (with specs)
- Bring your own music (Massive Attack is a great band to push Boses to their limits)
- Plug up the woofer-vent and comment (loudly) how tinny the speakers sound
- Ask what the cones are made of
- Ask what the difference is between a tweeter and a woofer
- Ask how such small speakers can put out big sound
- Ask how to add your own subwoofer
- Ask why the price is so high by pointing out the plastic construction
- Comment on how many people work in the store and how expensive the decor seems
- Ask if you can bring in your own system to "compare"
If you still haven't been kicked out of the store, ask how you can start your own Bose reseller store, after all, the profit margin must be huge....
That was pretty funny! Try that in Best Buy too and listen for the crickets as the sales rep goes silent as he does not know the dif between a woofer and a tweeter either.
Also above someone mentioned how great the customer service was. In my experience, companies with a crappy product usually have to have better CS in order to deal with all the issues. Logitech is one of them. The 880 remote is one horrid unit with known design flaws but the service I got with 3 replacements and then a refurbed Harmony one was stellar.
So would you rather have a great product where you never need the sub par service, or a crappy item but the people you talk to are so nice? I'll take the firs choice.
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As a former Bose store employee (yes, I'll admit it), I'll say that Bose does a really good job educating their brick & mortar employees. There's constant re-education on new technologies too, believe it or not. They also do a really good job with their demos and explaining how their products work to the average (i.e. non-audiophile) customer. I can also say their customer service is excellent (most of the time), and they do a great job standing behind their warranties. They also have a generous return/exchange policy (at least they did when I was still there, which was more than five years ago).
Bose doesn't cater to the hardcore audiophile market. They make products that looks nice and work easily. I don't know why more manufacturers don't try to match the ease of use of the Lifestyle systems.
That said, they do often use inferior materials in their products. Compare the construction of some of their speakers to competitors in similar price ranges. It's kind of a joke. Bose basically got out of the floorstander market completely because they just didn't hold a candle to anything similar in the market, IMHO. They also haven't updated their marquee 901 speakers in many years, which is sort of a shame. It's too bad because they really do have a top notch engineering staff at their headquarters, from what I understand. If they really wanted to, I think they could make a high quality premium speaker that could hold its own. They just aren't interested in that market anymore.
Anyway, back to the original topic. The B&W speakers will almost certainly sound better than the Bose. The Bose are probably easier to hide. It all depends on what is most important to the buyer.
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Well...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader3k
Bose doesn't cater to the hardcore audiophile market.
That certainly isn't how the product is advertised. They claim that their "systems" are the best money can buy at their price points, and the sales reps never tire of speaking about the "great sound" of their "systems."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader3k
they really do have a top notch engineering staff at their headquarters
That I can't believe. It think this should be reworded as: "they really do have the absolute best marketing staff in the industry, at their headquarters."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyfi
Try that in Best Buy too and listen for the crickets as the sales rep goes silent as he does not know the dif between a woofer and a tweeter either.
Believe it or not, I was talking with a young & and very hip sales rep with unusually high spiked hair at Magnolia less than a month ago and he didn't know what a planar speaker was. Funny thing, he was standing right in front of a pair of Martin Logans. When I explained what it was to him, he thought he was being smart and came right back with: "Martin Logan is the only planar speaker available anywhere" (using the term I just explained to him). There was a brief pause, and then I asked him for his business card. So he immediately presented one with fancy flip card dispenser he had at the ready in his pocket, and he probably thought he might get a sale out of this. I asked him for a pen and wrote www.magnepan.com on the back of it and handed it back. He asked me what it was, and I told him to just check it out. I thanked him very much and walked out.
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"the best money can buy."
I really doubt Bose uses phrasing like that in any of their marketing materials.
"great sound".
"Great" is a subjective term. It's a statement of opinion, not fact.
I never visisted their HQ, but I have heard from other people (both when I was working for the company and from people on other internet forums) that they actually have a pretty amazing engineering crew. I mean, this is a huge international company...really that hard to believe they have competent people working for them?
Their marketing department is certainly excellent. I agree with you there.
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Just heard from in-laws. It seems that the wife insist on the Bose because of those cute little cubes that could be hidden away. Now, they are in a bind. They don't know what to get.
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Mingus, show them the Gallo speakers, they are small, cute, and curvaceous.
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Ahem...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader3k
"the best money can buy.... I really doubt Bose uses phrasing like that in any of their marketing materials."
I heard the sales rep say those exact words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader3k
"Great" is a subjective term. It's a statement of opinion, not fact.
The sales rep also used "awesome, fantastic, superior" and "better than anything else out there." I guess he was a bit overzealous that day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader3k
I never visisted their HQ, but I have heard from other people (both when I was working for the company and from people on other internet forums) that they actually have a pretty amazing engineering crew. I mean, this is a huge international company...really that hard to believe they have competent people working for them?
Not so hard to believe at all. You don't need good engineers to market a mediocre product - actually that's a waste of talent, no? And if they do have "amazing" engineers, they aren't working very hard, then. Anyhow, isn't most of what's inside those "systems" just made in China and shipped over here for assembly?
Sorry, but I took a very long look at what they were selling last time I was there. It's lightweight, easy to push in, crack, damage, bend and break, and I won't even start on the sound. For those people that have heard better, and I'll grant you not too many people have, there is very little redeeming value in the products, especially at those outrageous prices. Bose keeps plastic companies in business, and that's about it. But what is so insulting is that they make a business of duping customers into paying far too much for inferior quality and sound - it's a con-job, and from my perspective that is deplorable and bordering on criminal.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mingus
Just heard from in-laws. It seems that the wife insist on the Bose because of those cute little cubes that could be hidden away. Now, they are in a bind. They don't know what to get.
I think your first line says it all. When the choice comes down to "what the wife insists on" that leaves little room for discussion about quality.
FWIW, the better choice for "hidden away" is in-wall speakers. I used in wall speakers for my rear centers in my 7.1 system. While not optimal in location compared to a floorstander or standmount speakers, you can get very high quality speakers for in wall applications.
B&W even makes them; http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=1602
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Mingus just go get the B&W speakers. You won't regret it!
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I have a pair of BOSE 201's in my kitchen alcove. Further, there is a set of cabinets directly above and a built in desk about a foot below them. So, it's terrible place to put a speaker. But the Bose 201's sounds not so bad. So, the moral of the story: Take a lousy speaker, put them in a lousy location and maybe it will sound not so bad.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
*snip*
I appreciate you don't care for Bose. I'm not a big fan either. My first surround setup was a Bose system (since I worked there and got a very hefty discount), but I have since upgraded a lot. The pair of 301s I bought is currently serving in my garage as a decent background music setup. My wave radio (which I basically got for free) is serving as an alarm clock. Other than that, I don't really use their products at all. I'm not sitting here trying to defend them. I'm just saying that when you try to hold them up to audiophile standards, of course they're going to fall well short. That's not the kind of market they're trying to reach at all. Really. They appeal to consumers like the OP's mother who want something small an easy to hide, and also that is easy to use (again, something I think more companies could maybe aim for).
Anyway, like anywhere else, you have to take what any sales person says with a grain of salt.
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Ka-Ching!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mingus
Just heard from in-laws. It seems that the wife insist on the Bose because of those cute little cubes that could be hidden away. Now, they are in a bind. They don't know what to get.
This is exactly how Bose sells so many systems. Styling, not price or performance.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader3k
They appeal to consumers like the OP's mother who want something small an easy to hide, and also that is easy to use (again, something I think more companies could maybe aim for).
That's their marketing strategy in a nutshell. Most people never get to hear a properly setup HT system in the first place, so what do they know when they get the Bose HT pitch.
While a Bose Lifesyle 48 might sound OK to people, for the same $4K I could set them up with a smokin HT system that would absolutely blow the Bose system away. Bose knows that too that's why they call it a "lifestyle" system.
It's all about hiding the fact that you have a HT with them. Mine is right out in your face, just like my audio rig. I'm not ashamed I have big speakers, nor do I find them ugly or imposing, however my wife is very understanding!
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What I don't understand is, if they don't care about sound quality, why care about surround sound at all?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio amateur
What I don't understand is, if they don't care about sound quality, why care about surround sound at all?
Because everyone else has it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio amateur
What I don't understand is, if they don't care about sound quality, why care about surround sound at all?
Sound quality is a trade off, and not everyone need to have state-of-the-art sound reproduction to enjoy it. Certainly HT is not all about sound quailty anyway. WAF and ergonomics also play a major factor, hense Bose's domination of the market. I can tell you that nobody sit's in my theater room and goes back to their "lifestyle" system with the same idea about what HT should sound like!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffcin
Sound quality is a trade off, and not everyone need to have state-of-the-art sound reproduction to enjoy it. Certainly HT is not all about sound quailty anyway. WAF and ergonomics also play a major factor, hense Bose's domination of the market. I can tell you that nobody sit's in my theater room and goes back to their "lifestyle" system with the same idea about what HT should sound like!
Or anywhere else in the house for that matter. Had a friend over and I played Polar Express for her kids. She was in the bathroom when the train came through. You should have seen her running into the room puller her pants up yelling, "What the h.ll was that?!" Bose won't do that for ya.
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Fair enough...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader3k
I appreciate you don't care for Bose. I'm not a big fan either. My first surround setup was a Bose system (since I worked there and got a very hefty discount), but I have since upgraded a lot. The pair of 301s I bought is currently serving in my garage as a decent background music setup. My wave radio (which I basically got for free) is serving as an alarm clock. Other than that, I don't really use their products at all. I'm not sitting here trying to defend them. I'm just saying that when you try to hold them up to audiophile standards, of course they're going to fall well short. That's not the kind of market they're trying to reach at all. Really. They appeal to consumers like the OP's mother who want something small an easy to hide, and also that is easy to use (again, something I think more companies could maybe aim for).
Anyway, like anywhere else, you have to take what any sales person says with a grain of salt.
But there is still that element of cheating the customer that I really have a problem with. Even a cute & little Athena Take surround system will sound better than the Bose system, and it will do so at a fraction of the price. At the same price point, Gallo and Monitor Audio that I mentioned above, make much better sounding systems, even if you add the cost of a receiver and player, or an all-in-one system like the NAD receivers. The point is that Bose sells by duping the consumer, and at some level that ought to be objectionable to everyone, not just the people here who know better.
I'm glad you got your Bose gear at huge discounts, you probably paid what they were worth. The trouble with that is that the duped consumers have subsidized your discount.
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I don't know if I agree with that. Bose spends a lot on marketing and their ads are everywhere. They have to make that up in the price of the product. I don't think that it's "duping" anyone when they charge more. Is it a poor value? Most here would say so, but value is in the eye of the beholder. Many here would in the same breath of taking the piss out of Bose equip, spend hundreds or even thousands of $$$ on exotic cables. How is that good value?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader3k
I really doubt Bose uses phrasing like that in any of their marketing materials.
They make the same claim for the 901 using different wording. Look on their website:
"Bose® 901® Direct/Reflecting® stereo speakers bring the warmth, power and excitement of a concert hall or movie theater to your home. Only live sounds better."
Only live and three hundred and fifty two other speakers available on the market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader3k
I never visisted their HQ...
You've never been to The Mountain?
I gave a presentation at a nearby hotel and decided to drive to the top to see the facility. Indeed, you drive up (a really big hill) and emerge at the top where there's a guard. Nice looking, but dated building.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader3k
I mean, this is a huge international company...really that hard to believe they have competent people working for them?
Are you expecting a fully decked out lab with Wilson Alexandrias and Nola Grand References there for comparison purposes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader3k
Their marketing department is certainly excellent. I agree with you there.
That is their core competency.
rw
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Let's not let the thread drift guys. It's bad enough that the poor guy doesn't have a solution for his wife's insistence on a Bose system. There's no reason to rub it in how poor a value the Bose system is.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffcin
Let's not let the thread drift guys. It's bad enough that the poor guy doesn't have a solution for his wife's insistence on a Bose system. There's no reason to rub it in how poor a value the Bose system is.
Well, he could go with the Bose for the wife and get a good set of cans for more discerning listening.
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