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Room size
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What the size of your room?
The 700 sqft room is in the shape of an "L" with the main listening area of 12' x 16' x 9'.
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Floorstanding vs standardmount
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Many floorstanders take up the same footprint as a standmount on a stand so you might be better off looking at some of them.
yes, this is definitely worth considering.
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Firstly...if you have a chance to get the 400 MK2, grab them if you can afford the price. They are a nice High-End speaker with a large following...cult like.
I believe you, however at $4000 they are a bit beyond my means.
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The Ikons are mid-fi speakers. The price is more reasonable. Vinyl wrap no wood.
I should have been born rich, I will pay almost anything to not have vinyl wrap.
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The Ikons made the Theils sound boring.
That's interesting, I've read a lot of good things about Thiels.
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MrP and I got a chance to listen to the Mentor Menuets at a local shop here in St. Louis. To me they sounded much different from the Ikons and Helicons. They where less detail in the mids and highs...did not have the detailed extension in the tweaters and had more of a balanced sound with a good bottom end....overall a good little stand mount speaker.
Now I have to try to hear all three! Thanks.
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The poster wants a speaker that is 89db or more - the rainmaker is 87db and Totem usually measures lower than their rated spec...It also has some treble fatigue which granted a lot of other speakers in this price range have as well...It's as if the drivers are trying so hard to pump out deep bass to impress on the showroom floor and sacrifice midrange clarity and seamlessness...The rainmaker is not easy to drive and does not meet the requirement the poster posted. 89db or better....The OP wants an easy to drive speaker...The Audio Note AX Two I am considering myself but as Marc pointed out you can't get all three - it has the sensitivity and it's reasonably small but it's probably only good to 60hz...But it's no bass hound either...In general I would avoid metal tweeters in this price range.
It has become apparent to me after reading through all of these informative and excellent posts, that I must consider driving any speaker that I get with a larger amp thereby negating the requirement for efficiency... as MarcW once pointed out, start with a speaker and then choose an amp to drive it.
I don't quite yet understand the "treble fatigue" issue.
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The Monitor Audio RX2...though I'm not sure just how small you want to get.
Me neither, my Marantz are big ugly vinyl wrapped boxes. My hi-fi guy makes some gorgeous stand mount speakers that don't miss any bass that the Marantz can produce, but they are beyond my budget.
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The ProAc Studio 110...Then there's the Dynaudio DM 2/8.
OK, that's three more to keep my eye out for.
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Actually the OP wanted standmounts to replace his larger Marantz speakers. His idea of a 89dB+ speaker on a stand isn't going to happen, but the larger "presence" of the Marantz can be had with a smaller speaker like the Rainmakers, which like most speakers of it's size, have not been designed to play absolutely flat, but have a bass and treble "hump". B&W tend to be flatter in response, and the OP didn't like that kind of response, being much more used to what the Marantz sounded like.
I think that is true! Additionally the B&W were less efficient than the Marantz and therefore much quieter with the amp that I was using.
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I didn't see anywhere that the OP wasn't considering 4ohm speakers.
That is also true, the amp that I am using can drive either 4 ohm or 8 ohm speakers. Can you tell me why you would choose a speaker by its ohm rating?
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Being concerned with a speaker being 4 or 8 Ohms is one of the last things I'd be concerned about. I'd put it just below wondering what kind of stuffing was used inside the box.
For me, the only thing that matters with speakers is how they sound.
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Originally Posted by ctctc
It has become apparent to me after reading through all of these informative and excellent posts, that I must consider driving any speaker that I get with a larger amp thereby negating the requirement for efficiency... as MarcW once pointed out, start with a speaker and then choose an amp to drive it.
I don't quite yet understand the "treble fatigue" issue.
The Ohm rating matters more with regards to the impedance shifts. A 4ohm speaker that is stable - doesn't dip below 3ohms is probably fine but some speakers that are 8 ohm rated may dip well below 2 ohms which requires a lot more power from the amplifier - these tend to be inefficient designs and IME not terribly dynamic and sound a little sludgy.
Money ends up going somewhere and I personally prefer to see it go to the loudspeakers or the source (if turntable is the source) but it depends on the overall budget of the system.
I am not a huge bass hound - I want enough bass at reasonable levels but it depends on what you listen to. But once you've had a system that has quality bass it's hard to go back.
I don't believe you want to sacrifice efficiency to gain bass. High efficiency speakers tend to sound far more open and exciting and "live" which is why all concerts and all night clubs use high efficiency robust loudspeakers. Tannoy makes a great club speaker I heard in a bar in South Korea of all places with dual massive 18 inch woofers in their dual concentric designs. They were reasonably refined and could truly thunder.
Small standmount speakers have compromises that all manufacturers have to work on and play with to maximize the most they can out of them. The first and usually not handled well at all is having the tweeter match up with the woofer so there is no "audible" gap. Treble fatigue IME is cause by either a tweeter that continuously sounds like a tweeter - you hear it project separate of what you would hear from real instruments. Ie; You hear the tweeter and woofer independanly of each other (something I hear in most of the B&W tweeter on top designs. Over time this is annoying and causes me fatigue. Another issue can be that materials has a sonic signature or a "sound" which is why manufacturers choose certain tweeter materials over others.
It's one thing to get the crossover point but it's also important IMO and in several maker's opinions,to get the characteristic of the physical material of the driver to match well with eachother if a lack of cohesion is an issue. Basically, I like the single driver sound. My ear is bugged by speakers where I hear the tweeter or woofer in a box and I always know I am listening to a box with drivers. I tend to gravitate to speakers using single drivers like Electrotatic panels and lowther types. The problem is usually that both lack a helluva lot of bass so I need to got a design that can offer the same or acceptably close single driver presentation but adds some drive and energy and life to musical instruments while not having the pitfalls of straying too far from the single driver sound.
Any standmount you look into is going to lack ultimate bass depth and what I would consider ultimate drive. Even my Audio Note's or Harbeth's are very large for a standmount and my AN speakers and still need to be corner loaded to gain the bass depth results.
I can suggest two speakers in the sub $2k camp. The Sonist Recital 3 which I heard at CES - it sounds very nice has pretty good bass and is really quick and agile - very very easy to drive - it was driven by 5 watt glow audio amps. 1795/pair - they are quite new to the line-up but they sounded really nice. They have a standmount but I didn't hear them http://forums.audioreview.com/newrep...reply&p=329903
Another speaker that might be interesting - they interest me though I have never heard them are the Omega Loudspeakers. They won't have deep bass but again it might be worthwhile getting better sound and figuring out bass later. Or just hold out until you can afford a better loudspeaker. The Super 6 may have enough bass and I've been reading good things about them. I may try and get a set in for review at some point. http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/products/
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Rich he's in the 1K range.
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Originally Posted by ctctc
It sure is beautiful to look at! It appears that none are stocked for another month or so at the local shop given to me by Dali's website. What is your opinion of published specs? The Mentor Menuet states a low range of 59 hz., but you said that it had a great low end?
Thanks, I did contact him and he told me that the speakers are made to order, so there's nowhere I can go to give a listen prior to purchase. Before I have him waste his time making me a pair I would like to know what corners are usually cut to make speakers so much cheaper than more expensive ones with similar specs?
You are giving alot of credence to published specs in your research. On one hand this is necessary in order to cess out the efficient models, but on another, it may taint your opinion of a good speaker.
Yes, the Menuet had insane bass. We thought there was a sub hooked up!! Whatever the specs are, this speaker was more than capable in the bass dept.
Tekton is essentially a small company. Eric does most of the work which is one way he keeps his costs down. This is no fly by night operation. He has made a slew of speakers which are highly regarded. If you are seeking really dynamic and low bass, they won't be for you. If you are happy with a more natural sounding bass response, these are it.
Tekton's are basically made for SET amps.
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The Monitor Audio RX2...though I'm not sure just how small you want to get.
Me neither, my Marantz are big ugly vinyl wrapped boxes. My hi-fi guy makes some gorgeous stand mount speakers that don't miss any bass that the Marantz can produce, but they are beyond my budget.
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The ProAc Studio 110...Then there's the Dynaudio DM 2/8.
OK, that's three more to keep my eye out for.
I was able to do an in home trial of the RX2 over the past few days. My room is relatively small (10x11 approx) and the RX2 was just a bit too much speaker. I cannot move the speakers very far out into the room, while your room is larger and so perhaps you won't have this issue. For me, bass was boomy. The RX2 moved a lot of air and thus they sounded big, which is what I wanted, but again this was too much. It was like feeling soundwaves as much as it was listening to music. But the speakers sounded good otherwise, and I think in a larger room with some space to breathe they would be fine. I almost think a 12 or 15" driver would work better as it would be a bit more effortless.
Also, given the proximity of my speakers to a wall or furniture behind them, I think I have issues with rear ports. Even my Quad 12L2 can sound a bit boomy when the port is working hardest though it's tolerable, but with the RX2 it was a constant issue. I was able to also try the PMC TB2i ($2,000+). It's not a ported speaker and did not exhibit any of these issues. The bass on this one is fantastic. Deep and tuneful.
In light of this I'm going to narrow my search down to either the PMC's or the ProAc Studio 110. Maybe the Paradigm Studio 20 as well. With the latter two being front ported I will hopefully not have these bass issues.
I also compared my Exposure amp to my new Audiolab 8000S. Amps can make a big difference! While not sounding quite as quick as the Exposure, the 8000S provides a more full bodied sound, with a deeper soundstage, greater presence, and smoother highs. Where the sound used to feel distant and a bit thin, it's now thicker and closer to the listener. There is greater weight to the mids. For example, Leonard Cohen's voice now feels closer and has more weight to it. As it should sound, IMO. There are trade offs (the feeling of less pace), but I'm willing to accept that.
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YB, do the RX2's have ports and did they come with foam plugs for them? I have the older RS-1's which are ported. They sounded a bit boomy without the plugs but with the ports plugged (they came with foam plugs) they have very tight and well controlled bass but not quiet as deep. I'm using them in a 17'x17' room with a cathedral ceiling about 15" from the back wall.
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Originally Posted by blackraven
YB, do the RX2's have ports and did they come with foam plugs for them? I have the older RS-1's which are ported. They sounded a bit boomy without the plugs but with the ports plugged (they came with foam plugs) they have very tight and well controlled bass but not quiet as deep. I'm using them in a 17'x17' room with a cathedral ceiling about 15" from the back wall.
Yes, the speaker is rear ported and comes with plugs. I tried the plugs and didn't like the result. It made the speaker sound too small. There was a definite lack of bass and scale.
17x17 is pretty big for a pair of RS1, I would think, although 15" from the back wall is pretty close. When I had the RX2 working they were about 2.5 feet from the back wall. But it wasn't just a back wall, on both the left and right side there is a corner, and in the middle (between the speakers, on which I have my amp and source) is a big credenza. So the ports were essentially firing into a box with one opening, and that is forward. Sound was probably bouncing off the two walls in the corner, and off of the rear wall and credenza, which in effect made a second corner.
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Originally Posted by YBArcam
Yes, the speaker is rear ported and comes with plugs. I tried the plugs and didn't like the result. It made the speaker sound too small. There was a definite lack of bass and scale.
17x17 is pretty big for a pair of RS1, I would think, although 15" from the back wall is pretty close. .
That room is our Master bedroom and the speakers do very well in the room. Its not ideal but we wanted a small speaker that has good sound for some easy listening. And I made a mistake. The speakers are not the RS1's, they are the older S-1's. They have excellent mid bass but the treble is a little rolled off. The tone controls on my vintage 1976 Technics SU-7200 integrated amp compensates for it though.
http://audio-heritage.jp/TECHNICS/amp/su-7200.JPG
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The chicken or the egg?
I had an opportunity to audition a pair of Whatmough P11 bass reflex standmount speakers in my home and was quickly introduced to the limitations of my JoLida FX10 [on loan] integrated tube amplifier.
While I could tell that there was sufficient bass response in this speaker, the sound was shot through with distortions at too many frequencies for me to count. Unless I'm mistaken I believe that this means that the low wattage amplifier was reaching beyond its means to power the speakers.
So... if the prevailing wisdom is to first select a pair of speakers, and then pair it with an appropriate amplifier to drive them, how do you audition speakers without an amp? The classic chicken or the egg argument. Should I ask my local hi-fi guy to come up with a more powerful amp such as the JoLida 202A?
On a personal developmental note I now recognize that all of that tubby and overbearing bass response from my vintage Marantz speakers, with 14 & woofer, are not in the recordings, but are overtones added by the speakers themselves.
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Your suggested amp will be marginally better, but not much.
Doubling the power to the speaker results in a barely audible 3 decibel increase in loudness. From your description, you seem to be clipping quit frequently.
For some of the speakers recommended in this thread, you may want to look beyond Jolida and perhaps into the 100+ watt amps. Solid state will be the most cost effective solution and there are many fine sounding ones out there.
But, ultimately, select your speakers first and work backwards from there. You can ret assured that the speaker contributes at least 99% of the overall sound of the system, assuming it provides enough clean power to drive the speakers to begin with.
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The solution is you must audition speakers with at least 89/90 db of efficiency. Ideally, something in the 94/95 range would be great. Have you heard any Klipsch?
With Tekton's return policy, I think you should order a pair and call it a day.
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BTW, where do you live? We can look at your local Craigslist which may open up some auditioning options.
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Originally Posted by RGA
The 602 has more bass than the Rainmaker without the frequency issues and is less expensive than the rainmaker. I like the Rainmaker if we're talking about sound quality under a grand too but it has gutless bass.
Gutless bass eh?
From the Stereophile review of the Totem Rainmaker by Robert J. Reina ;
"The Totem's rendering of the organ-pedal notes in John Rutter's Requiem (CD, Reference RR-57CD) was as realistic as I've heard from such a small bookshelf speaker, moving a convincing amount of air. I look forward to seeing John Atkinson's measurements of the Rainmaker's bass extension."
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My Kind of Town
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Originally Posted by poppachubby
BTW, where do you live? We can look at your local Craigslist which may open up some auditioning options.
Thanks Poppachubby.
I live in a modest Midwestern town located at the southwestern tip of Lake Michigan. It was named after a fragrant wild onion that the local native americans called shikaakwa, and which the French settlers rendered as Checagau. Well, the natives are long gone and the fragrance of the onions have been replaced by the smell of the politici-onions...in Chicago : )
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Originally Posted by ctctc
That's interesting, I've read a lot of good things about Thiels.
Keep in mind...some Dali speakers have whats called a Hybrid Tweeter system....One Ribbon Tweeter and one Fabric or Silk Dome Tweeter stacked on top of each other....side by side in a shoot out with others, they may make alots of Speakers sound boring . But if you dont have the Dali's properly matched with the right gear, the Dali's may come off as being overly ear bleeding bright.
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The NOLA Boxer. NOLA and its predecessor ALON made some well-regarded small bookshelf speakers. You don't find many of those on the used market. I'm glad they didn't abandon the format. Here's a link to an article(s) on both the Dali Mentor Menuet mentioned previously and the NOLA Boxer:
http://www.avguide.com/review/dali-m...eakers-tas-203
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Here's a great deal and just outside of your budget. Believe it or not your amp would make them go.
http://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/bfs/1783148573.html
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Originally Posted by poppachubby
Those are "bookshelf speakers"? Maybe if your name is Shreck!
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Originally Posted by Geoffcin
Those are "bookshelf speakers"? Maybe if your name is Shreck!
Hahaha....couldn't resist
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