biwire question.

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  • 12-07-2003, 05:27 AM
    dvjorge
    biwire question.
    Hello everybody,

    I have three sets of biwire speakers at home. Paradigm Studio 100, B&W DM 602 S2, and Monitor Audio Silver 2. I have never biwired any of them. So, I don't know if they improve or not changing them to biwire. I have been researching about different kinds of cables, about biwire modes and I haven't found any clear answer of the real advantage of biwire. Some people say " yes", others say "not". My particular question is Someone has experience biwiring any of the model I own?Did you notice an improve in the quality sound?
    Thanks,
    George.
  • 12-07-2003, 08:48 AM
    bturk667
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dvjorge
    Hello everybody,

    My particular question is Someone has experience biwiring any of the model I own?Did you notice an improve in the quality sound?
    Thanks,
    George.

    I have been bi-wiring my speakers for about as long as I have owned them, 13 years. What I heard, in comparing bi-wiring to not, was a smoothing of the highs, more over all detail, and better bass definition. Were they differences big? No, small at best, but a difference none the less! Since the speaker wire I was using at the time didn't cost me anything, it was worth it! Now I use Nordost Super Flatline speaker cables, very nice indeed. They are a bi-wired cable, that's how they come. Again, no extra cost, so well worth it!

    Go to your local hardware store, buy some dirt cheap cable, and try for yourself. Don't listen to me or any other poster. Let your ears be the judge. Now some people think bi-wiring is nothing more than "Audio Mythology" "Bull****" and "Hyperbole", they'll want you to DBT. I say don't even waste your time, unless your doing some kind of a science project for a grade or something like that. Let the meter readers do all the DBT to their little hearts content! You let your ears tell you what you need to know! Plus, I find it difficult to find blind people! And what does being blind have to do with listening to music? I mean, we listen with our ears don't we?
  • 12-07-2003, 08:53 AM
    F1
    Hi,
    I don't have experience with biwiring, but to my logic there's no real benefit of biwiring as long as you are driving the speaker with one amp. At the end, it's the same as using a thicker wire since wire circuitry is the same. It's just you split the wire at the amp or at the speaker. However, if you use two amps, one drives hi freq and one drives low freq, (i.e. biamping) the sound may be better as the amp drives less load, but that's also subjective.
    Sorry if that doesn't really answer your question.
  • 12-07-2003, 04:41 PM
    Norm Strong
    Biwiring test
    Quite some time ago, I ran such a test. I did a reasonably careful job of it. Unfortunately, the test was run with Vandersteen speakers, not any of the models you own.

    The upshot of the test was that there was no detectable difference between bi and mono-wiring until the wire got down to AWG24, at which time mono-wiring was slightly better. Since this is what would be expected, no further tests were done.
  • 12-07-2003, 10:17 PM
    mtrycraft
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bturk667
    Let your ears be the judge. Now some people think bi-wiring is nothing more than "Audio Mythology" "Bull****" and "Hyperbole", they'll want you to DBT. I say don't even waste your time, unless your doing some kind of a science project for a grade or something like that. Let the meter readers do all the DBT to their little hearts content! You let your ears tell you what you need to know! Plus, I find it difficult to find blind people! And what does being blind have to do with listening to music? I mean, we listen with our ears don't we?


    You should have quit before this section. Now you have me to contend with.
    I suppose you don't want him to have any facts on this issue? No ideas how he should listen so bias will not be an issue and have an unreliable comparison that is meaningless. Why didn't you explain the worthlessness of sighted listeing to determine audible differences? Your ommission is noted and you offered him no help by ommission of important information. Is this how you help?

    He shouldn't waste his time reading you post. Why should he?

    Oh, you don't listen with your ears, by the way. You are too scared to do that. You need your eyes telling you what you are listeing to. You need a crutch. You don't trust your ears after all. And you are telling him to?
  • 12-07-2003, 10:19 PM
    mtrycraft
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dvjorge
    Hello everybody,

    I have three sets of biwire speakers at home. Paradigm Studio 100, B&W DM 602 S2, and Monitor Audio Silver 2. I have never biwired any of them. So, I don't know if they improve or not changing them to biwire. I have been researching about different kinds of cables, about biwire modes and I haven't found any clear answer of the real advantage of biwire. Some people say " yes", others say "not". My particular question is Someone has experience biwiring any of the model I own?Did you notice an improve in the quality sound?
    Thanks,
    George.

    There is no evidence to support audible differences to buy wiring except as Norm indicated when it comes to inferior speaker cables.
    If you do compare, you need to account for your bias that is subconscious with no control of it as it may mislead you to what is real and what is imagined.
  • 12-08-2003, 06:54 PM
    zapr
    Mtrycraft?
    I don't have the speakers you discribed, but I do have the monitor 9's.I never biwired them until this past weekend after I read a post by BrianUDLaw under a thread by stereobug. Go there and click the web site he gives.Hook your speakers up exactly the way the article explains.As far as how it worked for me,I did notice cleaner, smoother highs as well as a punchier bass.I used basic speaker wire,12 gauge for the lower posts and 14 for the upper.Don't listen to mtrycraft,he's way to bias and just slams everyone else...........Don't forget to remove the jumper bars.Listen for your self.
  • 12-08-2003, 08:59 PM
    TinHere
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by zapr
    Don't listen to mtrycraft,he's way to bias and just slams everyone else............

    C'mon, he rarely slams people that agree with him. ;)
  • 12-08-2003, 09:04 PM
    mtrycraft
    I got your mail. Did you receive one from me? I am not sure how that aspect works :)
  • 12-08-2003, 09:13 PM
    mtrycraft
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by zapr
    I don't have the speakers you discribed, but I do have the monitor 9's.I never biwired them until this past weekend after I read a post by BrianUDLaw under a thread by stereobug. Go there and click the web site he gives.Hook your speakers up exactly the way the article explains.As far as how it worked for me,I did notice cleaner, smoother highs as well as a punchier bass.I used basic speaker wire,12 gauge for the lower posts and 14 for the upper.Don't listen to mtrycraft,he's way to bias and just slams everyone else...........Don't forget to remove the jumper bars.Listen for your self.

    Why should anyone listen to you? How do you know your perception is real not imagined? You have no idea, guaranteed. And you want people to take your advice?
  • 12-09-2003, 04:25 PM
    bturk667
    One question.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by zapr
    I don't have the speakers you discribed, but I do have the monitor 9's.I never biwired them until this past weekend after I read a post by BrianUDLaw under a thread by stereobug. Go there and click the web site he gives.Hook your speakers up exactly the way the article explains.As far as how it worked for me,I did notice cleaner, smoother highs as well as a punchier bass.I used basic speaker wire,12 gauge for the lower posts and 14 for the upper.Don't listen to mtrycraft,he's way to bias and just slams everyone else...........Don't forget to remove the jumper bars.Listen for your self.

    Would you say the difference that you experienced was worth the extra cost?
  • 12-09-2003, 05:16 PM
    zapr
    One answer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bturk667
    Would you say the difference that you experienced was worth the extra cost?

    I never thought biwiring would make a difference because of what I read on this site.I finally tried it and did notice a difference.Cost? Who does'nt have some extra 12 gauge lying around the house?
  • 12-09-2003, 05:49 PM
    zapr
    mtrycrafty??
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    Why should anyone listen to you? How do you know your perception is real not imagined? You have no idea, guaranteed. And you want people to take your advice?

    Why should anyone listen to me? You did. How do I know my perception is real and not imagined? I imagined your perception and I was right. I have no idea? I'll guarantee you I do have an idea right now. Don't listen to mtrycraft. He's way to bias and just slams everyone else.
  • 12-09-2003, 06:28 PM
    Woochifer
    Whether or not you can detect anything is up to you to decide. Running two runs of 14 gauge bulk cord's not that expensive. Going with biwire speaker cables is a little more expensive. If you're that curious, go ahead and give it a try. My local audio dealer suggests that a cost effective alternative to biwiring is to use a short low gauge cable run with spades as a replacement for the stock jumpers. That's what they use in their demo room instead of biwires.

    I'm not all that convinced on biwiring, and I use a biwired setup. I noticed slight and subtle changes when I switched over from 16 gauge bulk cord, but nothing conclusive and definitely nothing worth obsessing about. If you're looking for a more effective way to improve the sound of your system, look into room treatments or other forms of acoustic controls. The effect that your room has on sound is much more significant than cabling.
  • 12-09-2003, 11:25 PM
    mtrycraft
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by zapr
    Why should anyone listen to me? You did. How do I know my perception is real and not imagined? I imagined your perception and I was right. I have no idea? I'll guarantee you I do have an idea right now. Don't listen to mtrycraft. He's way to bias and just slams everyone else.

    Nope, I didn't listen to you. Did I take your avice? Hardly. I read your post and responded in kind.
  • 12-09-2003, 11:32 PM
    mtrycraft
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by zapr
    I finally tried it and did notice a difference.

    Is it real or imagined?
  • 12-10-2003, 07:35 AM
    bturk667
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by zapr
    I never thought biwiring would make a difference because of what I read on this site.I finally tried it and did notice a difference.Cost? Who does'nt have some extra 12 gauge lying around the house?

    I'm glad you like what bi-wiring has done for you. Isn't it great when people try things for themselves, and stop listening to people who have never tried anything for themselves, like some on this page. Oh sure, they'll say no testing has proved this or that. Who cares, let your ears be the judge!
    Aint life grand?
  • 12-10-2003, 07:38 AM
    bturk667
    I'm not all that convinced on biwiring, and I use a biwired setup. I noticed slight and subtle changes when I switched over from 16 gauge bulk cord, but nothing conclusive and definitely nothing worth obsessing about.
    Isn't this part of the fun of being into Audio as a hobby? Trying small inexpensive changes to your system for yourself; even if the difference is slight or subtle. I do anyway. To me it's fun and interesting. Plus I gain more knowledge about certain subject matters, on my own, not based on what some scientists have done.
  • 12-10-2003, 06:57 PM
    zapr
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    Nope, I didn't listen to you. Did I take your avice? Hardly. I read your post and responded in kind.

    You DID listen to me......I didn't give you any avice so why would you take it.
  • 12-10-2003, 09:25 PM
    mtrycraft
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by zapr
    You DID listen to me......I didn't give you any avice so why would you take it.

    Well, no I don't listen to you, no reason for me to. I do read you posts, some of them anyways.

    You didn't give advice?

    I never biwired them until this past weekend after I read a post by BrianUDLaw under a thread by stereobug. Go there and click the web site he gives.Hook your speakers up exactly the way the article explains.As far as how it worked for me,I did notice cleaner, smoother highs as well as a punchier bass.I used basic speaker wire,12 gauge for the lower posts and 14 for the upper.

    What was that?
  • 12-10-2003, 09:27 PM
    mtrycraft
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bturk667
    let your ears be the judge!
    Aint life grand?


    Well, if one likes lies, ambiguity, unreliability, go ahead.
  • 12-11-2003, 09:07 AM
    turbodog
    dvjorge,
    here is what B&W has to say about it:
    http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/...7F00D0B7473B37

    They say the improvement is... 'subtle'.
    I tend to agree that if you have short speaker wire runs, with heavy guage wire, it should not make any difference. My speaker wire runs are 25 feet. However, I am in the process of bi-amping my B&W DM640s and upgrading to 12 guage wire. I don't plan to bi-wire... unless a PA dies.
  • 12-11-2003, 03:22 PM
    gorilla196635
    I have to be honest. I tried this with my Polk RT16 towers and if I did hear a difference believe it was my mind playing mind games. I use Monster M seriers speaker cables that are not bi-wired and only do that becasue they look pretty laying on the ground. Do they make a difference probably only to that poin that it will be harder for an animal to chew or if they get caught on a moving piece of furniture they won't get destroyed. I also use other monster cables not sure if I hear differences or not.
    I spoke to a guy who sells cables and he tells me that the difference is really only noticable on a meter, not so much waht we can hear. I am sure there are people (like piano tuners) that can hear these subtle differences but for the average listener probably not. His logic is this. "Do you think a company would sell you a product like a DVD player and put cables in it that would sacrifice the quality of picture or sound"? Sounds logical to me..

    On the oher hand if you have the money it is fun, they do look nice and it is also piece of mind knowing you have a quality cable behind your system.
  • 12-11-2003, 07:06 PM
    dvjorge
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by gorilla196635
    I have to be honest. I tried this with my Polk RT16 towers and if I did hear a difference believe it was my mind playing mind games. I use Monster M seriers speaker cables that are not bi-wired and only do that becasue they look pretty laying on the ground. Do they make a difference probably only to that poin that it will be harder for an animal to chew or if they get caught on a moving piece of furniture they won't get destroyed. I also use other monster cables not sure if I hear differences or not.
    I spoke to a guy who sells cables and he tells me that the difference is really only noticable on a meter, not so much waht we can hear. I am sure there are people (like piano tuners) that can hear these subtle differences but for the average listener probably not. His logic is this. "Do you think a company would sell you a product like a DVD player and put cables in it that would sacrifice the quality of picture or sound"? Sounds logical to me..

    On the oher hand if you have the money it is fun, they do look nice and it is also piece of mind knowing you have a quality cable behind your system.

    Thanks everybody. A lot of answer. I will end cabling my speakers with Monster Cables AWG 12 and not bi-wiring them.
    Thanks again.
    Jorge.
  • 12-11-2003, 10:41 PM
    mtrycraft
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dvjorge
    Thanks everybody. A lot of answer. I will end cabling my speakers with Monster Cables AWG 12 and not bi-wiring them.
    Thanks again.
    Jorge.


    Monster is expensive cable, unless you already have them on hand.
    Try Home Depot, Target, WalMart or local electronics store. Even low voltage landscape wire is fine, or 14 ga is fine.