• 03-03-2004, 09:29 AM
    46minaudio
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    Another review - this of the original CC6 by Secrets of Home Theater and Hi Fi magazine.

    "Sound wise, the B&Ws are quite natural, with no boominess and very little chestiness (that irritating sound that destroys female vocals). In fact, the CC6 was one of the most natural sounding center channel speakers we have had the pleasure to test. Often, a center channel speaker requires a little EQ in the 125 Hz range (lower it by as much as 8 dB) to get rid of the problem. Perhaps it is due to sound bouncing off the face of the TV (we test them on top of the monitor, front of speaker flush with front of monitor), or the top of the TV at the sides of the center channel speaker. In any case, the CC6 did not need any EQ to get a very nice tonality, even though the frequency response test showed a bump in the 125 Hz - 160 Hz range. Front to back tonality was well balanced, and of course, because the 603s are full range, there was a bit of expected tonality imbalance with the CC6. The only way to get complete balance across the front, is to use identical LCR speakers." http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_3_2/v3n2c.html

    Secrets also reviewed the Paradigm Titan.Here is a quote"How do they make such an inexpensive speaker sound so good?"..Its good to know RGA aproves ....
  • 03-03-2004, 11:01 AM
    RGA
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 46minaudio
    Secrets also reviewed the Paradigm Titan.Here is a quote"How do they make such an inexpensive speaker sound so good?"..Its good to know RGA aproves ....

    It amazes me that people can so miss the point of my post.
  • 03-03-2004, 11:56 AM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    Yes I don't necessarily trust reviews but I should trust the word of people on the internet?

    Then why the hell should anybody trust your opinion on this or any other topic?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    I'm not saying you didn't hear what you heard - nor was my post directly for you...but the original poster may have wanted to see an alternate opinion of the CC6 within the context of the surround sound system it was designed for. At no time did I read this fatal flaw that this was a truly terrible integration and was a totally inept center channel - and they are not afraid to give negative reviews...B&W does not win too many awards from that Magazine.

    Well, if all that you were trying to do was recommend an alternative opinion, then I would not be on your case. Unfortunately, you tried the backdoor approach of dismissing and trivializing my conclusion and speculating on the reasons why my opinion is "incorrect" and should be disregarded. This coming from someone who hasn't even listened to the speaker model in question. And your sources of back up are the very reviews that you've devoted plenty of space to attacking in the past.

    It would be like me saying that your attacks on the Paradigm Monitor series are BS, speculating on reasons why you have no idea what you're talking, and then citing third party reviews to back up my case even though I'd never heard those speakers first hand before. I'm sure that approach would go over very well with you. Oh, and just so you know, the Monitor 5 was the Absolute Sound's Best Buy in its price category. I mean, a speaker that they recommend could not possibly be as terrible as you claim it is, right?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    I am speculating that a person can TRY a center from the CDM line or a newer model.

    You are speculating, but that's something that was already evident before you just now admitted it.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    THE FACT is a perfect match REQUIRES the EXACT same speaker. The fact that a woofer is the same size is totally ridiculous...the BOX has 20 times the effect on a speaker's sound than a driver's SIZE has. The same tweeter yes, to a FAR lesser degree the woofer material follows, and then size. It would make more sense to get another 602S2 and andgle it down...which still won't be perfect since the tweeters need to be at the same height...one reason the TOtem dreamcatcher system(and pricey) with a rear projection was totally abysmal - the center is too high - the speakers need ot be too far apart and the sound is off...they match...exact same issue I heard at sound and vision with the Paradigm Studio 100V3 matching center and ridiculous boomy sub(not the sub but the set-up).

    How convenient of you to now go changing the subject. And you're going about this as if you have first hand experience designing and building speakers. How do you know that the box has "20 times the effect on a speaker's sound than a driver's SIZE has"; is this something that you quantified and verified yourself, or is just more speculation and BS on your part? What is 20 times the effect versus 10 times the effect or 100 times the effect?

    At what time did I ever talk about a "perfect match"? Let's review before you start bringing other unrelated topics into the discussion:

    -- The original poster was talking about a B&W speaker package in the classifieds that featured the DM603 and the CC6, NOT the LCR60, NOT the LCR600, NOT the CDM, and NOT a downangled DM602.

    -- My response was that the two models did not voice match one another very well because I had heard them together before and did not feel that the CC6 was an adequate match. THAT'S what I was responding to.

    PLEASE address the topic at hand, rather than try to cover your tail by spinning the subject onto irrelevant tangents and throwing stuff off the perverbial dung heep that you always like to talk about until something sticks. This topic has nothing to do with the Totem or Paradigm systems that you've apparently heard for yourself, so I have no idea why you're bringing those into the discussion other than you just had to say something about something.

    If you actually read my posts, I make note of the sound on the CC6 being an inadequate match. (And again, this is my OPINION, so how can you call it INCORRECT?) The size of the driver is an ancillary but contributory issue, and the drivers used on that model are not just different sized but a completely different design used nowhere else in the B&W lineup (except in those DS6 dipole surround speakers, which were also not so good in my listenings). It is true that the best performance is achieved with three identical speakers up front, but that wasn't part of the topic at hand either. Nice try.
  • 03-03-2004, 04:40 PM
    RGA
    Starting at the review stage it is you and 46min that like to support rags and gee wiz they're so right they should also diss something you hate they don't. The point is more to 46 min as to WHY I don't go by reviews.

    Wooch made an assumption that I haven't heard the CC6...why do you get the impression I never heard the CC6. This was one of the very first sessions I have ever had with a surround system. The LCR60 is better as is the LCR 600 the BUYER gets to decide which way he/she wants to go. The CC6 is the worst of them but it's also the cheapest - and I don't even think it's even being made anymore. I kept calling the CC6 the LCR 6 however. Nice naming by B&W - not.

    The reviews fall all over themselves loving this set-up which you didn't care for...perhaps that might give a clue to the fact that reviews should not be assumed correct...even if they are being HONEST it's still their opinion - which quite obviously YOU feel very strong in opposition to. GOOD.

    This is the underlying point. Take 46min he hates the CDM 1NT and thinks the 20V2 is a VASTLY superior speaker from "top to bottom." I disagree with that assessment but it is entirely valid. But we go back to reviews and see the CDM 1NT a Stereophile Class B product and the Studio 20 isn't. Does that mean he's WRONG. No because ONE reviewer happened to like the bottle of Red wine B&W sent over to the reviewer instead of the White Paradigm sent.

    As for TAS and any review they're entitled to their view of the speaker...reviewing something and owning it long term are two different things. Lots of stuff in a given price range I would give a nice rating too...certainly I would never want to live with the speaker because it would grate on my nerves.

    And the ridculousness should be seen in the fact that they rate 12 speakers or so a class A or B that sound NOTHING remotely alike. That makes little sense...but they can tack on "if you like this type of sound then you'll love this speaker." Well if you don't you may hate it - but that bit's left off.

    How bout we let the poster listen and see if he hears this lack of timbral accuracy...after all not everyone hears the annoying mess I hear with the Paradigm Monitor 5 and other Paradigms...then again some do.

    the box has more impaact on sound than a driver's size. end of story mate it does. The box design and cabinetry factors more in the B&W sound than whether they go polypropolyne or kevlar for their 61/2 inch woofer. Kevlar helps the marketing and does have an impact but a smaller one. Going to a smaller box center channel right away influences the sound of the speaker...to then use the SAME size drivers in a smaller box makes less sense - I should EXPECT them to compensate the driver size as well - or the technology in the crossover and other parts etc. A match is the exact same speaker or it doesn't match PERIOD. The CC6 doesn't match yes, neither does the matching top of the line Nautilus with their Nautilus...perhaps why Skywalker uses ALL N802's all the way around...that matches.

    My audition - though short with the 100 V3 matching humongous center was as unimpressive as usual with the center on top of a massive 50+ inch widescreen tv... the sound is not cohesive - it's off kilter. SO they crank the sub to make you physically ill to divert your attention from the rest(though the depth and SPL of the Paradigm Sub is stunning considering a big room). An over $8,000 front end with Anthem's AVM 20 and power amps. If this was supposed to be competantly handled surround integration then I'll avoid looking for a center channel because the incompetant ones must be truly appalling.
  • 03-03-2004, 05:53 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    Wooch made an assumption that I haven't heard the CC6...why do you get the impression I never heard the CC6. This was one of the very first sessions I have ever had with a surround system. The LCR60 is better as is the LCR 600 the BUYER gets to decide which way he/she wants to go. The CC6 is the worst of them but it's also the cheapest - and I don't even think it's even being made anymore. I kept calling the CC6 the LCR 6 however. Nice naming by B&W - not.

    Are you for real, or just waking up and realizing that you're way late to the party? I stated that the CC6 was discontinued three responses ago and asked you why B&W would bother to quit making that center speaker model if it was as "fantastic" as you said it was. I guess that answers my question on whether or not you even bothered to read the thread before going into cut and paste mode.

    In past discussions on center speakers, you have mentioned the LCR6, which is why I assumed that you had not listened to the CC6. But, why are you suddenly so sure about which center speaker you heard now that I'm taking you to task for stuff that you said about my listenings? And why not just mention that you thought that they were a decent voice match for the 600 series and leave it at that, without resorting to the condescending dismissals of my opinion on the CC6.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    The reviews fall all over themselves loving this set-up which you didn't care for...perhaps that might give a clue to the fact that reviews should not be assumed correct...even if they are being HONEST it's still their opinion - which quite obviously YOU feel very strong in opposition to. GOOD.

    It's all well and good and magnanimous of you to say all this now, but unfortunately your earlier statements were a helluva lot less tolerant of disagreement. You were oh so sure that my opinion was factually incorrect and I was the only person who could've possibly felt the way that I did about the speaker in question. That's what I'm taking you to task with on this thread, and all of the subsequent spinning and sidetracking and semi-sincere backtracking and weasel words are just irrelevancies designed to sidetrack from the topic at hand.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    This is the underlying point. Take 46min he hates the CDM 1NT and thinks the 20V2 is a VASTLY superior speaker from "top to bottom." I disagree with that assessment but it is entirely valid. But we go back to reviews and see the CDM 1NT a Stereophile Class B product and the Studio 20 isn't. Does that mean he's WRONG. No because ONE reviewer happened to like the bottle of Red wine B&W sent over to the reviewer instead of the White Paradigm sent.

    As for TAS and any review they're entitled to their view of the speaker...reviewing something and owning it long term are two different things. Lots of stuff in a given price range I would give a nice rating too...certainly I would never want to live with the speaker because it would grate on my nerves.

    And the ridculousness should be seen in the fact that they rate 12 speakers or so a class A or B that sound NOTHING remotely alike. That makes little sense...but they can tack on "if you like this type of sound then you'll love this speaker." Well if you don't you may hate it - but that bit's left off.

    How bout we let the poster listen and see if he hears this lack of timbral accuracy...after all not everyone hears the annoying mess I hear with the Paradigm Monitor 5 and other Paradigms...then again some do.

    the box has more impaact on sound than a driver's size. end of story mate it does. The box design and cabinetry factors more in the B&W sound than whether they go polypropolyne or kevlar for their 61/2 inch woofer. Kevlar helps the marketing and does have an impact but a smaller one. Going to a smaller box center channel right away influences the sound of the speaker...to then use the SAME size drivers in a smaller box makes less sense - I should EXPECT them to compensate the driver size as well - or the technology in the crossover and other parts etc. A match is the exact same speaker or it doesn't match PERIOD. The CC6 doesn't match yes, neither does the matching top of the line Nautilus with their Nautilus...perhaps why Skywalker uses ALL N802's all the way around...that matches.

    My audition - though short with the 100 V3 matching humongous center was as unimpressive as usual with the center on top of a massive 50+ inch widescreen tv... the sound is not cohesive - it's off kilter. SO they crank the sub to make you physically ill to divert your attention from the rest(though the depth and SPL of the Paradigm Sub is stunning considering a big room). An over $8,000 front end with Anthem's AVM 20 and power amps. If this was supposed to be competantly handled surround integration then I'll avoid looking for a center channel because the incompetant ones must be truly appalling.

    Case in point. A bunch of verbiage that in the end doesn't address what I brought up, and does not make your case on why you stated earlier that my listening was somehow less than valid. You can bring all the irrelevancies and detailed out accounts of unrelated listening sessions that you want, and that still doesn't get at why you think the CC6 is a "fantastic" center speaker and why my opinion of that speaker is "incorrect" and should be dismissed.

    And stop pretending that you're a speaker designer, because it's obvious that you're not. My comments were limited to my opinion that the CC6 did not adequately voice match the 600 series main speakers that it was paired up with. This is based on a first hand listening. If you disagree, fine. A simple response on why they DO voice match would have sufficed, and it's something that you have yet to provide. Instead, it's just tired soapbox material that veers way off topic. The discussion of the driver configuration is secondary to the voice matching. Your keying on that minor point and turning it into the anchor point of your response doesn't address my very simple point about a speaker that I listened to. I agree with you on using three identical speakers up front, but in case you failed to actually read my last response, I already agreed with you and said that was off-topic and an unnecessary tangent. And I already said that with a center speaker it's not about a perfect match, but an adequate match, and the CC6 IMO fails to live up to that standard. How hard is it to stay on topic and read before posting?
  • 03-03-2004, 08:04 PM
    46minaudio
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    Starting at the review stage it is you and 46min that like to support rags and gee wiz they're so right they should also diss something you hate they don't. The point is more to 46 min as to WHY I don't go by reviews.

    I only point out reviews (pro and users) to show there are different oppinions than your golden ear so called facts..

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    This is the underlying point. Take 46min he hates the CDM 1NT and thinks the 20V2 is a VASTLY superior speaker from "top to bottom."

    Now Now Now RGA there you go again posting things that are just untrue..The word I used was "prefered". And the word hate as in the "CDM 1nt" was never posted.This just goes to show you cannot be trusted...The fact is I very much liked the 7nt and 1nt and It came down to the 100v2 /20v2 combo and the 7nt/1nt combo...

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    I disagree with that assessment

    I really have no problem with this but the you called me"tone deaf" as if your ear was somehow better than mine...This is one reason why I almost never recomend speakers..Try posting facts .Why is it you feel your ears cannot be wrong?
  • 03-03-2004, 10:33 PM
    topspeed
    Woochifer's posts: 463
    RGA's posts: 457

    How many of these nearly 500 posts have you guys used to go at each other? As an outside observer, it appears you two are really reading more into the posts than there is. Relax, it's a HOBBY, remember?
  • 08-04-2010, 10:58 PM
    mario ferrari
    copy of manual B&W subwoofer ASW1000
    Please , someone out there, would help me to send me the copy of the manual of B&W speaker subwoofer ASW1000. My email is matuelo1@yahoo.com. I really appreciate if you help me. Mario
  • 08-09-2010, 06:41 PM
    MikeyBC
    Wow...that's digging pretty deep !