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  1. #51
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    Hi Mr. P.,

    Have you ever auditioned Merlin VSM speakers? I know there are several versions of the VSM but most, if not all reviews of all of the versions have been positive. I know they use a Dynaudio tweeter, but the reviews of these speakers tend to describe them as very detailed, airy speakers that are also smooth and transparent. I know they are not the most efficient but they are supposedly not hard to drive and I think the combination of your CJ system with these speakers would provide amazing sound. These are often found on audiogon for around the $2500-$4000 range. Not sure if you have a dealer near you for auditions but you may get lucky and have someone near your area selling them or someone that owns them and would welcome an audition.

    Good Luck

  2. #52
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    Hi Mr. P.,

    I also forgot to mention GR Research DIY speakers. Not sure if you have any knowledge of these but Danny Ritchie of GR Research is a very well respected speaker designer. He has a variety of kits available for DIYs. Not sure if you are interested in a DIY project but if you are GR Research speakers have amazing reviews and a very loyal following. If you are not interested in DIY then you can also visit his forum under audiocircle and you'll find someone who will build the speakers for you and all you have to do is pick out what you want and they'll build them. Some amazing work has been done by " Out of the Woods". See his website and see the section for audiocircle and then visit posts from " Out of the Woods" and you'll see some of his work. Also, I think the Skiing Ninja can build some of the projects as well, but you may want to contact them to make sure. The website for the ninja is: http://www.skiingninja.com/

    The GR Research website is : http://www.gr-research.com/

    You can also contact Danny directly and he can steer you in the right direction in terms of what speaker kit will work best for you and he can also suggest the best builder for you as well. I think his stuff is probably the best bang for your buck gear in the audio industry.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    If your 1.4's "lacked detail" in the low end, there was an issue. If there is any one thing most agree on about Dynaudio their speakers have one of the best bass responses in the biz.
    No,the bass doesn't lack detail,just transparency,it is tuneful.Sometimes i feel that the bass is cutted,similar feelings of dynaudio c5 owners in reviews in order avoid boominess or something like that
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  4. #54
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Its 2010 and RGA still debates dipoles and monopoles.... geeez you really havent learned anything
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  5. #55
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Its 2010 and RGA still debates dipoles and monopoles.... geeez you really havent learned anything
    Hi, Flo, good to hear from you!

    Yep, RGA is slow learner but he is making some progress. Today, thanks to his amateur review exploits, he has learned that, indeed, there is good sounding equipment other than Audio Note.

    And as for dipoles, well, he even admits that King Sound electrostatics are pretty good.


  6. #56
    RGA
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    Yes and if panel guys would figure out that there are good boxes and actually get of their couch and listen to the "specific" boxes that i talk about rather than Assume they think they know what they will sound like then we could actually have a conversation on point. I did the work to audition the Soundlabs, Apogee Scintilla, Duetta Sig, All the Magnepans, the King Sound, Prince II and King II, most all of the Martin Logans over the past 15 years, SanderSound, InnerSound, the top Quads. I have attempted to listen to as many such offering as possible. And some of these have sounded quite good.

    King Sound was one of my top 5 selections in the under $10k price range at CES and Martin Logan's Summit while not making my final cut in the above $10k group was in the running - they managed to get the driver integration thing done better than any other ML session I have been involved in. And they sounded good with modest Mystere tube amps to boot.

    Maybe I am just pickier when it comes to panel sound - but panels were one of the first speakers to get me interested in High End audio in the first place. I am just willing to recognize and discuss their weaknesses where other will simply put blinders on and pretend they're perfect without any sonic weakness. Most reviewers own boxed loudspeakers even though they have the space, experience and money for panels. They have big strengths and big weaknesses which is why they're polarizing. I don't get why people can't admit to those things.

    And perhaps when people consider that reviewers who owned famous named panels from Apogee, Quad, Magnepan, like Jack Roberts, Art Dudley, Constantine Soo, Doug Schroeder, Paul Messenger, and others went to boxes of some sort might tell you that there are other options that are just as if not more desirable. But they all must be wrong - not allowed to have their opinion right?

    The Prince II may be one of the better bang for buck speakers available. It sounds a LOT better than the 20.1 and has more drive than than the Quad 2905. But the best news is that it's $6,000 and built very well to boot. I prefer the ESL sound to the ribbon sound in general so when one can buy it for less or the same price as a ribbon counterpart then it gets me even more excited. But the Prince II still isn't ideal for those of us who have larger musical appetites. But it does have some bass though the King would be better here but it didn't sound quite as good as the Prince under show conditions.
    Last edited by RGA; 12-08-2010 at 11:22 AM.

  7. #57
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Yes and if panel guys would figure out that there are good boxes and actually get of their couch and listen to the "specific" boxes that i talk about rather than Assume they think they know what they will sound like then we could actually have a conversation on point. I did the work to audition the Soundlabs, Apogee Scintilla, Duetta Sig, All the Magnepans, the King Sound, Prince II and King II, most all of the Martin Logans over the past 15 years, SanderSound, InnerSound, the top Quads. I have attempted to listen to as many such offering as possible. And some of these have sounded quite good.

    King Sound was one of my top 5 selections in the under $10k price range at CES and Martin Logan's Summit while not making my final cut in the above $10k group was in the running - they managed to get the driver integration thing done better than any other ML session I have been involved in. And they sounded good with modest Mystere tube amps to boot.

    Maybe I am just pickier when it comes to panel sound - but panels were one of the first speakers to get me interested in High End audio in the first place. I am just willing to recognize and discuss their weaknesses where other will simply put blinders on and pretend they're perfect without any sonic weakness. Most reviewers own boxed loudspeakers even though they have the space, experience and money for panels. They have big strengths and big weaknesses which is why they're polarizing. I don't get why people can't admit to those things.

    And perhaps when people consider that reviewers who owned famous named panels from Apogee, Quad, Magnepan, like Jack Roberts, Art Dudley, Constantine Soo, Doug Schroeder, Paul Messenger, and others went to boxes of some sort might tell you that there are other options that are just as if not more desirable. But they all must be wrong - not allowed to have their opinion right?

    The Prince II may be one of the better bang for buck speakers available. It sounds a LOT better than the 20.1 and has more drive than than the Quad 2905. But the best news is that it's $6,000 and built very well to boot. I prefer the ESL sound to the ribbon sound in general so when one can buy it for less or the same price as a ribbon counterpart then it gets me even more excited. But the Prince II still isn't ideal for those of us who have larger musical appetites. But it does have some bass though the King would be better here but it didn't sound quite as good as the Prince under show conditions.
    Very well said...

    I really liked the few ESLs I've heard (Final Sound & Martin Logan), whereas I detested the only ribbon I've heard (Magnepan MG12)...

    I can't wait to try out some high efficiency speakers... If only Audio Note was easily accessible, then I'd happily try out a pair...

  8. #58
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Thats because the MG 12 has no ribbon
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  9. #59
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Mr P have you considered DIY open baffle or horn style speakers? They are a little of both sides of the coin, and typically the cost is insanely reduced vs. a pair of pre built. Even the flat kits available from places like Madisound represent a great value. You would certainly need a subwoofer but let me tell ya, you NEED to hear the sound from these designs/drivers.

  10. #60
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Thats because the MG 12 has no ribbon
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnepan website
    MG12
    Description 2-Way/Quasi Ribbon Planar-Magnetic
    Freq. Resp. 45-22kHz ±3dB
    Rec Power Read Frequently Asked Questions
    Sensitivity 86dB/500Hz /2.83v
    Impedance 4 Ohm
    Dimensions 17 x 51 x 1.5
    Available in cherry, natural or black hardwood trim, off-white, black or grey fabric.
    Fine, it has a Quasi Ribbon...

  11. #61
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    They are diet ribbon, ribbon light, they are the Pepsi-Free of ribbon...

  12. #62
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    Pepsi Free IMO = free of tatse and flavor. A Quasi Ribbon is the same. They bear no resemblance sound wise to Magnepan's true ribbon. Damning the entire line because of the MG-12 is quite presumptive. The 1.6 and 1.7 are much better and the 3.6 and 20.1 with true ribbons are an order of magnitude better.

    FWIW: I don't think to much of the MG-12. The 3.6 and 20.1 are truly something else. I consider my moving from Magnepan's to ESL's an upward move. I must point out that I moved to ESL's without owning a pair of Maggy's with ribbons. I frequently listen to 3.6 and 20.1's that two different friends own. The 3.6's are very very good. The 20.1's are simply world class IMO.
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  13. #63
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    Pepsi Free IMO = free of tatse and flavor. A Quasi Ribbon is the same. They bear no resemblance sound wise to Magnepan's true ribbon. Damning the entire line because of the MG-12 is quite presumptive. The 1.6 and 1.7 are much better and the 3.6 and 20.1 with true ribbons are an order of magnitude better.

    FWIW: I don't think to much of the MG-12. The 3.6 and 20.1 are truly something else. I consider my moving from Magnepan's to ESL's an upward move. I must point out that I moved to ESL's without owning a pair of Maggy's with ribbons. I frequently listen to 3.6 and 20.1's that two different friends own. The 3.6's are very very good. The 20.1's are simply world class IMO.
    Interesting... Considering that just about any audiophile hears from forums or review mags that Maggie MMGs, MG12 and MG1.6 (now 1.7) are the Greatest values in all of hifi and once you get a taste of planar crack you will addicted for life, you should be able to see why I'd expect a lot from the MG12... Also this is the first time I've heard someone say that there is a substantial difference in sound between the lower ranges and the higher ones... Generally the impression given is you start with an MMG and just keep moving up the line for more bass and refinement, not that the lower stuff sounds like crap and the higher models are great...

    Actually what I've heard is that the great value is in the MMG to 1.7, but by the time you reach 20.1 there is better available for less money...

    Anyway, I'm happy to know that I was not alone in my disappointment with the 12s..

  14. #64
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    The "no box" sound of Maggy's is what attracted me to them in the beginning. I still have difficulty listening to most box speakers. The ones that go to heroic methods (Wilson etc.) to calm box resonances are the only ones I can listen to.

    Although I have some reservations about Maggy's I could live with the true ribbon equipped models . The lower midrange and upper bass have some problems to my ears. Anything the ribbon tweeter produces IMO rivals the best ESL's.

    I must point out, even with the problems I hear from Maggy's in general they sound (to me) better than any comparably priced "monkey coffin". I still think the 1.6/1.7 is one of the best buys around. They sound much better than MG-12's.

    If I wanted Maggy's and couldn't afford the 1.7's or better I'd buy a pair of MMG's and a sub. IMO the 3.6R's are the ones to have. For the price of the 20.1's you can get some pure ESL's like Quads or King Sound.

    I'm beginning to think my dream system is a pair of Acoustat Spectra 44's with two pair of Magneplanar ribbon tweeters and dual 18" TL subs. All of this would be tri-amped with crossover points at 80Hz and 8KHz.
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  15. #65
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    Interesting... Considering that just about any audiophile hears from forums or review mags that Maggie MMGs, MG12 and MG1.6 (now 1.7) are the Greatest values in all of hifi and once you get a taste of planar crack you will addicted for life, you should be able to see why I'd expect a lot from the MG12... Also this is the first time I've heard someone say that there is a substantial difference in sound between the lower ranges and the higher ones... Generally the impression given is you start with an MMG and just keep moving up the line for more bass and refinement, not that the lower stuff sounds like crap and the higher models are great...

    Actually what I've heard is that the great value is in the MMG to 1.7, but by the time you reach 20.1 there is better available for less money...

    Anyway, I'm happy to know that I was not alone in my disappointment with the 12s..
    PM'd message to you.
    Last edited by RGA; 12-10-2010 at 09:23 PM.

  16. #66
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    The "no box" sound of Maggy's is what attracted me to them in the beginning. I still have difficulty listening to most box speakers. The ones that go to heroic methods (Wilson etc.) to calm box resonances are the only ones I can listen to.

    Although I have some reservations about Maggy's I could live with the true ribbon equipped models . The lower midrange and upper bass have some problems to my ears. Anything the ribbon tweeter produces IMO rivals the best ESL's.

    I must point out, even with the problems I hear from Maggy's in general they sound (to me) better than any comparably priced "monkey coffin". I still think the 1.6/1.7 is one of the best buys around. They sound much better than MG-12's.

    If I wanted Maggy's and couldn't afford the 1.7's or better I'd buy a pair of MMG's and a sub. IMO the 3.6R's are the ones to have. For the price of the 20.1's you can get some pure ESL's like Quads or King Sound.

    I'm beginning to think my dream system is a pair of Acoustat Spectra 44's with two pair of Magneplanar ribbon tweeters and dual 18" TL subs. All of this would be tri-amped with crossover points at 80Hz and 8KHz.
    If the issue is the 12s being the odd man out, then I really hope to get a chance to audition the other models in the line...

    Have you tried Open Baffle speakers? I imagine that should be an interesting alternative to "monkey coffins"...

  17. #67
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    After using ESL's for the last 25+ years almost anything with a cone sounds slow and veiled to me. If and when I change speakers it will be another pair of ESL's
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  18. #68
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA

    This is not the end of the world - Magnepan is a polarizing product - several reviewers like them and some hate them.
    You are mistaken. Magnepan speakers are universally liked by professional reviewers, some absolutely love them. The REAL polarizing speakers are the "floppy box" speakers that some people mistake for high fidelity, when in actuality they are highly distorted. Of course some people get attached to the distorted sound and call it "wonderful sounding" but it is still distortion no matter how much you might like it.
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  19. #69
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    You are mistaken. Magnepan speakers are universally liked by professional reviewers, some absolutely love them. The REAL polarizing speakers are the "floppy box" speakers that some people mistake for high fidelity, when in actuality they are highly distorted. Of course some people get attached to the distorted sound and call it "wonderful sounding" but it is still distortion no matter how much you might like it.
    Universally liked? Of all the magazines in print and online my question to you is do you believe most reviewers own a Box of some kind or a panel of some kind. Please illustrate that all reviewers prefer panels to boxes or that they all love panels - if it were true they would buy them because MOST positioning requirements of free standing speakers is very much the same for panels. There are a number of writers on my staff that do not like Magnepans. I like Panels more than at least one of them. John Marks of Stereophile does not like Magnepan. Don't know about other panels. Universally means everyone. Sorry there buds but I see a lot of reviewers who have owned premium panels and then buy boxes and don't look back.

    And you can insult floppy boxes all you want - I get that you like to insult a speaker you've never heard - because you can't keep to apples to apples - the King Sound stuff is cheaper and miles better. Maybe get off your computer and actually try some stuff. Even Apogee or Acoustat would be a sizable upgrade - granted you'd have to buy used but still.

  20. #70
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    ....

    And you can insult floppy boxes all you want - I get that you like to insult a speaker you've never heard - because you can't keep to apples to apples - the King Sound stuff is cheaper and miles better. Maybe get off your computer and actually try some stuff. Even Apogee or Acoustat would be a sizable upgrade - granted you'd have to buy used but still.
    RGA, get back to me when King, Apogee, or Acoustat make a viable $600/pr. speaker.

  21. #71
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    RGA, get back to me when King, Apogee, or Acoustat make a viable $600/pr. speaker.
    But wait - apparently even the maggie guys are saying the non true ribbon ones are no good. Which is it? Now the MG12 down are good with their Quasi ribbons? I would not touch the MMG with a ten foot pole. It's $600 down the drain unless all you listen to is panzy ass music. Oh wait...

    And you can buy used Apogee for $600. Soundhounds sold a set not long ago for that price. I have also seen a used Scintilla for $800 that apparently only needed minor work. There are several speakers I would buy over the MMG for around the same price. Wharfedale Diamond 8.1 or 8.2 active pro-monitors (and some of their other models under a grand, Grant Fidelity's LS/3A variant, AN AX Two, PSB Alpha B-1/T1, Paradigm Monitor 5, B&W 600 series, Klipsch Reference 3 (which in Canada was selling for $599 a pair). Some of these can actually play some music with oomph.

    And most end up leaving the MMG for more expensive - if it was so great you would have stayed with it but you spend more to get the 1.6 which is IMO the best "bang for buck" speaker in their product line and the one model I recommend for serious consideration. It has enough of everything at the price to make it worthwhile. And it arguably has the strongest press. The 1.7 I can see getting the same kind of press. value for the dollar for the type of music it plays. Above the price point however they're in trouble from much better sounding boxes and much better sounding panels. And the smaller models are hopeless on the most popular forms of music. IMO the 1.7 and the 1.6 are the models to consider because as you point out the better stats do not offer anything in this price range. So at least on this we agree.
    Last edited by RGA; 12-11-2010 at 12:08 PM.

  22. #72
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    But wait - apparently even the maggie guys are saying the non true ribbon ones are no good. Which is it? Now the MG12 down are good with their Quasi ribbons? I would not touch the MMG with a ten foot pole. It's $600 down the drain unless all you listen to is panzy ass music. Oh wait...
    For my part I'm talking about dipoles. ELS, ribbon, quasi-ribbon, magneto-planar, or even dynamic dipole (like Linkwitz Orion). Magnepan has the <$2k market wrapped up. So serioursly, let me know when then there is an full-range ELS or ribbon for the price of the MMG or even an MG 1.7 ...

    And, yeah, that's right! Some do listen to pansy-ass music. Not everyone listens to that Electronica, Techo, or Trance, (Trance? WTF?). Hell, I'd same as least as many listen to chamber music.

  23. #73
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
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    The Maggy 1.7's are probably the best buy in audio for <$2K. They are speakers I could probably live with despite their shortcomings. I've already stated the MG-12 and MMG are underwhelming to me. There is a caveat there. As underwhelming as the MMG and MG-12 are (to me) they are both IMO better than any comparably priced speaker in a box.
    There are boxes that sound good to me. All of them are considerably more expensive than 1.7's. The lowest priced ones are at least 50% more.
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  24. #74
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    For my part I'm talking about dipoles. ELS, ribbon, quasi-ribbon, magneto-planar, or even dynamic dipole (like Linkwitz Orion). Magnepan has the <$2k market wrapped up. So serioursly, let me know when then there is an full-range ELS or ribbon for the price of the MMG or even an MG 1.7 ...

    And, yeah, that's right! Some do listen to pansy-ass music. Not everyone listens to that Electronica, Techo, or Trance, (Trance? WTF?). Hell, I'd same as least as many listen to chamber music.
    Yes the MMG is perfect for old geezers with one foot in the grave who listen to violin solos and nothing that approaches a pulse.

    I just don't hear anything in them that would make me get excited about them. They're not good at either frequency extreme and they have no ability to push air. So they are essentially a background noise speaker that sound pretty good. But one can buy a $250 set of PSBs or B&Ws to do the same thing.

    And you went to the 1.6 because you know you wanted more - or you would not have.

    There is plenty of music in the techno/trance/electronica realm - and most young people listen to it than chamber music. The difference is a good loudspeaker that can actually do techno/trance/electronica can also do chamber music so why not have a speaker that can do both sorts of music admirably and also be easier to drive can also play louder and cover more frequency range for around the same price. I would not necessarily say that a B&W 604 for the same money as the 1.6 is outclassed. Depends on what you want. The AZ Two is a quasi horn that will give a solid 35hz doing a credible job on organ, piano, and bass with "fast" drivers in the sense that they are not pistonic motion drivers like most. They're a little coloured but far more dynamic and enveloping and for half the price of the 1.7.

    Speakers ought to play everything well - or it's just not a high end/hi-fi loudspeaker.
    And the likes of the 20.1 greatly struggle with this kind of stuff let alone the MMG.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1H7v...eature=related

    Or just basic Sarah McLachlan for Pete Sake!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx9kk...eature=related The midbass here should have it in your chest and rumble the room. A speaker's job is to reproduce what it is being fed to the artist's intent whether the artist is Corelli, Vivaldi or Delerium or DMC, Slayer. A speaker/system that can't do all music is limited on all music, period.

    Heaven help them with this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDt9UB2F1E8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjW2P05Mi14

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMkD9wXn3BI

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYBGYJGO1wo

    Buckethead http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPihV...eature=related

    I consider none of the above even as hard as it could get. I was very disappointed with the 20.1 on the following which "should" be what the 20.1 does well.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2CFM...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yyh2lSow0uE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB4gb...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS8eV...eature=related OR http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51ssH...eature=related

    I just strongly recommend that you not solely read technical briefs or reviews because the last two links are basic guitar and piano solo and I'm sorry but direct comparisons really do make a case for themselves. Even those "floppy boxes" at less than half the price - just is no comparison.
    Last edited by RGA; 12-11-2010 at 05:02 PM.

  25. #75
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    May 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    The Maggy 1.7's are probably the best buy in audio for <$2K.
    Your not going to get much of an argument on this! I wouldn't give up on the less expensive maggies too fast though. My MC1's are perhaps the closest to perfect surround speaker I've ever heard, and the Magnepan CC3 center produces vocals that are true timber like no other center speaker I've heard under $3k. While my 3.6's proved just too revealing for HT service, I am seriously considering getting a pair of 1.7's to replace my current HT mains.
    Audio;
    Ming Da MC34-AB 75wpc
    PS Audio Classic 250. 500wpc into 4 ohms.
    PS Audio 4.5 preamp,
    Marantz 6170 TT Shure M97e cart.
    Arcam Alpha 9 CD.- 24 bit dCS Ring DAC.
    Magnepan 3.6r speakers Oak/black,

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