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  1. #1
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    5 speakers, $2500US: Paradigm vs B&W vs Totem???

    I've got $2500US or about $3000CDN to spend on 5 speakers. 2 fronts, a centre and surround rears.

    These three makers are sold nearby and have great reviews so I'm having trouble choosing between them.

    What would you buy for that kind of cash?

  2. #2
    Forum Regular paul_pci's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjjanzen
    I've got $2500US or about $3000CDN to spend on 5 speakers. 2 fronts, a centre and surround rears.

    These three makers are sold nearby and have great reviews so I'm having trouble choosing between them.

    What would you buy for that kind of cash?
    For that kiinda cash, I'd go for Dynaudio.

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    B&W (2)603s3 + lcr600+(2)601s3 = 2,500.00.Generally you'll get a discount so it ends up even less.I have the 603's and the lcr600 and love them.Unfortunatly i have missmatched surrounds right now.What amplification will you be using?

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    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Dynaudio makes a good speaker too, if they're in your neighborhood. Buying speakers is sort of like buying clothes...you'll get a dozen different recommendations from a dozen people who've all heard the same speakers. Your just going to have to listen to these yourself to see which is better in your opinion.
    Afterall, if one speaker was clearly superior, it should be easy for everyone to tell upon listening right?

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    I Just ordered PSB Image Series

    I Just ordered the PSB Image series speakers www.psbspeakers.com and they fall within your price range. They are compared with paradigm all the time.

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    enrique:

    I'll be using either a Rotel 1056, or NAD 763.

  7. #7
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    Rotel and B&W match extrmely well together.Also just so you know dynaudio's as great as they are are 4ohm.So obviously you would have to add a good amp if you use the rotel or even the nad.Even though i heard numerous people say that the rsx1056 does fine with the 4ohm,but Rotel says dont do it.That being said i'm extremly happy with my rotel rsx1056/b&w setup.

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    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Rotel says not to drive 4 ohm loads with the 1056? My integrated and power amps have no trouble at all. I wouldn't think a NAD would have any trouble.
    Geez, my last Yamaha RX-V795a receiver had no trouble driving 4 ohm loads to pretty impressive volumes and it wasn't nearly as nice as the 1056 or 763.

    Good point though, a system should be made with synergy in mind. Higher efficiency will require less power to play loud...for 4 ohm nominal speakers, you'll want to be sure the amp is up to the task.

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    I would also recommend dynaudio and depending on your room size you could get away fine with your 1056. My audience 52's play great while driven by my rotel ra 1060@60wpc, as a side however my room is only 11 by 13 feet. If you go used you could get into dynaudio contour line, which has soom incredable speakers. GOOD LUCK!

  10. #10
    IRG
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    I didn't see you asking about Dynaudio, so I won't mention it. I would think 2 pairs of the Paradigm Ref 20 v4 would be great with the NAD receiver. I have the lesser T-743 and have loved it with Paradigm Monitor speakers. I may in another year upgrade to the Ref series. But with your budget, you should be able to get 2 pairs of the Ref 20s and the matching center speaker. That would kick a$$. You might even have a little $ left over for some music, the real reason why we buy this stuff.

  11. #11
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    At that budget, you'll fall short of a five speaker setup if you go with B&W's 700 series. You could go with four 705s and get a center speaker later on. For a five speaker setup, that leaves you with the 600 series, which very well might work to your preferences, but you really should do the comparisons for yourself.

    In general, Paradigms have a more forward sound than the B&Ws, and put more emphasis on the off-axis response and imaging. I would opt for the standmounted Paradigm Studio series models over the equivalent priced floorstanding Monitor models. The route you go depends on how much you value the bass and whether you plan to add a subwoofer. If you want a lot of bass with a punchier and more forward sound, then the Monitor series should work. If you want more balance and refinement, then the Studio series is where you should go.

    In my listenings, the Paradigm Studio 20 v.3 is a wonderfully versatile speaker that's equally adept at two-channel and multichannel sources. Getting five of them (if you plan to use a wall-mounted TV and can accommodate a normal speaker in the middle, I would strongly suggest that you use three identical speakers up front rather than a setup with the horizontal center speaker in the middle) will give you a very nice multichannel setup with perfect voice matching all the way around. The wide dispersion on those speakers will create an very convincing surround effect in a properly configured 5.1 system. The only drawback to the 20s is that you need a subwoofer for the deep bass.

    The Totems have changed a lot since the last time I listened to them, so I can't give you an opinion one way or another.

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    jjjanzen,if your still here why not just audition the 603's with the rotel rsx1056 if thats what you plan to get.If your getting the nad also audition the nad with the 603's or even the paradigms.Once you decide on which reciever then audition the speakers with that particular reciever if of course the dealer has both products.Of course this works visa-versa also,speakers first then receiver.

  13. #13
    IRG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    At that budget, you'll fall short of a five speaker setup if you go with B&W's 700 series. You could go with four 705s and get a center speaker later on. For a five speaker setup, that leaves you with the 600 series, which very well might work to your preferences, but you really should do the comparisons for yourself.

    In general, Paradigms have a more forward sound than the B&Ws, and put more emphasis on the off-axis response and imaging. I would opt for the standmounted Paradigm Studio series models over the equivalent priced floorstanding Monitor models. The route you go depends on how much you value the bass and whether you plan to add a subwoofer. If you want a lot of bass with a punchier and more forward sound, then the Monitor series should work. If you want more balance and refinement, then the Studio series is where you should go.

    In my listenings, the Paradigm Studio 20 v.3 is a wonderfully versatile speaker that's equally adept at two-channel and multichannel sources. Getting five of them (if you plan to use a wall-mounted TV and can accommodate a normal speaker in the middle, I would strongly suggest that you use three identical speakers up front rather than a setup with the horizontal center speaker in the middle) will give you a very nice multichannel setup with perfect voice matching all the way around. The wide dispersion on those speakers will create an very convincing surround effect in a properly configured 5.1 system. The only drawback to the 20s is that you need a subwoofer for the deep bass.

    The Totems have changed a lot since the last time I listened to them, so I can't give you an opinion one way or another.
    You know I meant to type Studio 20, but somehow it came out Reference 20 instead. The Studio 20s are v4 now, correct? I listed to them at a local dealer - pretty good too. I was surprised though, how good on some music the Monitor 3 stood up against it, so that's what I bought, well and $500 less too. I may upgrade next year to them. I thought the Studios had a little too much bass emphasis, almost as if a subwoofer was on. But on classical and acoustic, they really did shine. Tough to beat for the money, IMO.

  14. #14
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjjanzen
    I've got $2500US or about $3000CDN to spend on 5 speakers. 2 fronts, a centre and surround rears.

    These three makers are sold nearby and have great reviews so I'm having trouble choosing between them.

    What would you buy for that kind of cash?
    What do you listen to? What kind of sound do you like? How much bass do you want? Are you going to listen to a lot of music or will it mostly be home theater?

    Many set-ups have varying strengths. Where do you live?

    For $3,000.00Cdn I would lean to Dynaudio over the B&W's I thinkt he Dynaudio audience 42 at $900.00 pair LIST is a superior speaker to the B&W 705 or the Paradigm Studio 100V3 -- if it's home theater you're probably going to need a subwoofer and getting a good one is major consideration. A set of A52's in front and a set of A42's in back with the appropriate center channel (or preferrably a third A52) as center speaker will be getting up $2500-$2700.00Cdn and you still need a sub and stands.

    I would also look into what Linn is offerring up and possibly Energy C series or if music is secondary. Certain PSB and Paradigm models and the B&W 600 series may also be good to you. The 600 series sounds more engaging and exciting to me than the 700 series but doesn't look nor is it built as nice. If your considering paradigm i would also look at Energy which to me is just as good for a lot less money or PMC(the Professional Monotor Company) which slightly more but to me you get what you pay for with them.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjjanzen
    I've got $2500US or about $3000CDN to spend on 5 speakers. 2 fronts, a centre and surround rears.

    These three makers are sold nearby and have great reviews so I'm having trouble choosing between them.

    What would you buy for that kind of cash?
    You are better off listening for yourself, as folks have very different tastes in loudspeakers and to some extent speaker brands have a house sound. Some of your preferences will also be informed by the type of music you listen to. Each of these brands have their own adherents. On the B&W front, I have heard folks tout the 600 series, but personally I prefer the 700 series to the 600 series, the 700 series is an altogether smoother and more coherent and it is definitely not boxy, though if you want deeper bass with the 705, you will need a subwoofer. Note that there is no equivalent 700 series model for the B&W602.
    Last edited by theaudiohobby; 05-20-2005 at 01:30 AM.

  16. #16
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRG
    You know I meant to type Studio 20, but somehow it came out Reference 20 instead. The Studio 20s are v4 now, correct? I listed to them at a local dealer - pretty good too. I was surprised though, how good on some music the Monitor 3 stood up against it, so that's what I bought, well and $500 less too. I may upgrade next year to them. I thought the Studios had a little too much bass emphasis, almost as if a subwoofer was on. But on classical and acoustic, they really did shine. Tough to beat for the money, IMO.
    The Studio line is currently on the v.3 version, which came out almost two years ago. Surprised that you would note that the Studio 20s have too much bass emphasis, because in the lows they are noticeably more neutral than the v.2 versions were. If anything, the detractors for the current Studio series have noted that there's not enough bass. Personally, I think that the bass with the v.3 series is very well balanced and better differentiates the lower frequency sounds than the v.2 series and the Monitor models.

    The Studio 20s have deeper bass extension than the Monitor 3s because their box dimensions and port diameter are designed to deliver deeper bass extension, and the Studio series woofers are better equipped to handle a wider range than the Monitor drivers.

    If the Studio 20 sounded like a subwoofer was on, then you're likely hearing a room-induced effect. Starting around 200 Hz, the room effect starts to have a progressively bigger effect on the bass -- it can cancel out the bass or boost them at specific frequencies; and the boundary reinforcement is very pronounced in small rooms. A subwoofer will typically take the overall sound down to at least 25 Hz, and I know for a fact that the Studio 20 doesn't come anywhere near that depth.

    Acoustical effects with the room though can boost certain frequencies enough to make it seem that a lot of bass is emanating from a speaker (this type of midbass boost is the parlor trick that Bose employs to make their Acoustimess and Lifestyle systems sound that like they deliver a lot of bass when in fact they have poor lower extension), or cancel them out at other frequencies and make even a full range speaker sound anemic.

  17. #17
    IRG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    The Studio line is currently on the v.3 version, which came out almost two years ago. Surprised that you would note that the Studio 20s have too much bass emphasis, because in the lows they are noticeably more neutral than the v.2 versions were. If anything, the detractors for the current Studio series have noted that there's not enough bass. Personally, I think that the bass with the v.3 series is very well balanced and better differentiates the lower frequency sounds than the v.2 series and the Monitor models.

    The Studio 20s have deeper bass extension than the Monitor 3s because their box dimensions and port diameter are designed to deliver deeper bass extension, and the Studio series woofers are better equipped to handle a wider range than the Monitor drivers.

    If the Studio 20 sounded like a subwoofer was on, then you're likely hearing a room-induced effect. Starting around 200 Hz, the room effect starts to have a progressively bigger effect on the bass -- it can cancel out the bass or boost them at specific frequencies; and the boundary reinforcement is very pronounced in small rooms. A subwoofer will typically take the overall sound down to at least 25 Hz, and I know for a fact that the Studio 20 doesn't come anywhere near that depth.

    Acoustical effects with the room though can boost certain frequencies enough to make it seem that a lot of bass is emanating from a speaker (this type of midbass boost is the parlor trick that Bose employs to make their Acoustimess and Lifestyle systems sound that like they deliver a lot of bass when in fact they have poor lower extension), or cancel them out at other frequencies and make even a full range speaker sound anemic.
    Well the listening room I was in was less than idea. I had 3 pairs to listen to at the time, the Energy C-3, which I also happened to own, the Monitor 3 and then the Studio 20s. The C-3s had the least bass and the Studios the most. If I had had the money at the time, I would have preferred the Studio 20s, but the Monitor 3 did pretty well. On rock music, I thought they sounded better, but this wasn't an ideal listening test as I mentioned. On classical music I brought with me, the Studios were superior. Both beat the C-3. I wasn't wild about the rubber top on the Studios, but apparently it has a purpose. The Energy Veritas also had the same "purpose."
    Last edited by IRG; 05-20-2005 at 11:55 AM. Reason: spelling

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    Thanks for all the replies!

    I live in Calgary. I've only been to two dealers so far. One carries Rotel&NAD receivers, and Paradigm, B&W and Thiel ($$$$$$$). The other carries NAD, Marantz, Krell receivers and JM Labs, Totem, KEF, and Definitive Tech speakers.

    I've narrowed it down to the NAD 763 and the Rotel 1056, based on reviews, features, and the fact that more of an emphasis is put on music ability than useless features by both. I pretty much always have music on, so that will be my main use. I figure that whatever system can pump out decent music, will handle home theatre just fine. There may be some argument to that, but most people would agree that it doesn't go the other way around. A good HT setup may not lend well to music.

    I have yet to do a full listening test, which is paramount to any sounds system. Having said that, I did do a brief (2hour!) session comparing the def tech mythos line and the Totems Sttafs, using only a Marantz receiver. The Totems won.

    I'm looking for feedback on the B&W and Paradigm lines because they have speakers in the same price range, so like any good consumer, I have to shop around.

    I don't know where to get Dynaudio's or Energy speakers around here, so those are out. But thanks for the info on the Paradigm's and B&W's. I will definitely give them a listen to complete my research.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjjanzen
    I've got $2500US or about $3000CDN to spend on 5 speakers. 2 fronts, a centre and surround rears.

    These three makers are sold nearby and have great reviews so I'm having trouble choosing between them.

    What would you buy for that kind of cash?


    Of the three brands you mention, I would definitely go with a Totem package. The other day, I had a listen to the Paradigm Studio 40 and B&W (don't know which model, but they were around $1100 Canadian per pair) and I just could not believe how terrible they both sounded (no offence to any owners). The 40's were clammy and out of focus and the B&W's were simply hazy...there is no way in hell I, personally, would ever consider either of these two brands. For the same money, look at Epos (provided your room isn't too big. M12.2's with a C8 centre and M5 or ESL3 as surrounds and you're in for a home theatre treat.

    If EPOS is not an option, I would consider the Totems as the top choice in the group you mentioned.

  20. #20
    RGA
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    Energy is sold at A&B Sound which should be in Calgary -- and you can demop the Energy's against the Totems as they also carry Totem. Dynaudio is tougher to find as more high end dealers carry them not big retail chains.

    The reason I mention Energy is because the C9 (with the exception of build construction) is very much on par with the Paradigm Studio 100V3 and at prices between $1100 - $1250.00 a pair list is a vertiable bargain. They're also tube amp friendly play real loud and have pretty darn good bass response. A set of these in front and C3 in rear their center channel and a good sub will be well under $3k Cdn.

    Energy is also made in Canada. PSB's Image series might be worth a listen as well. Totem is nice but often ooverpriced for the sonics in that a lot of the money went to the nice cabinetry. The Energy's are a bit boring looking but a good deal IMO. http://www.energy-speakers.com/v2/pr...age.php?id=22#

  21. #21
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Energy is sold at A&B Sound which should be in Calgary -- and you can demop the Energy's against the Totems as they also carry Totem. Dynaudio is tougher to find as more high end dealers carry them not big retail chains.

    The reason I mention Energy is because the C9 (with the exception of build construction) is very much on par with the Paradigm Studio 100V3 and at prices between $1100 - $1250.00 a pair list is a vertiable bargain. They're also tube amp friendly play real loud and have pretty darn good bass response. A set of these in front and C3 in rear their center channel and a good sub will be well under $3k Cdn.

    Energy is also made in Canada. PSB's Image series might be worth a listen as well. Totem is nice but often ooverpriced for the sonics in that a lot of the money went to the nice cabinetry. The Energy's are a bit boring looking but a good deal IMO. http://www.energy-speakers.com/v2/pr...age.php?id=22#
    RGA: Even Energy won't make a clam that the C9 is even in the same ballpark as the Studio 100...Personally, I'd avoid either speaker but let's be realistic.

    Totems additional cost for cabinetry is actually not nearly as much as you'd think. Go visit the Totem factory in Montreal, it's at an old bank building, really cool. The added cost might be 5-10%, maybe. And that's only at the lowest priced speakers they offer...their competitors usually have nicely finished cabinets as well. Just a different style, no additional cost though. When you sell as many speakers as these guys do and have the high grade industrial equipment they do it's easy to keep costs down. IMO Totem offers far superior sound than most other speakers they compete with, they just have a different approach altogether...smaller instead of bigger. Nice looks don't hurt either.
    I'm surprised you don't like Totem and that they're on your top 3 list of speakers to trash...they have a very European flavor to them and sound quite similar to many speakers you recommend.

    jjjanzen: Use your own ears to be the judge - RGA notwithstanding, many, many fussy people have chosen Totem for the wonderful sonic refinement (and awesome midrange, imaging, and soundstaging) their speakers deliver. Try them out - you've got nothing to lose.

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    kexodusc: I plan to give the Totems another listen hooked up to the NAD receiver. I'd like to hook them up to the Rotel, but that dealer doesn't carry Totems. From what I've read on both reseivers, I can't really lose. It appears as though NAD has fixed it's hiss problem (if there ever was one) as they apparently pulled a batch of 763's off the shelf and replaced them with good ones, so I'm comfortable going with either receiver.

    Based solely on reviews I've read (a ton!), the Totems have the edge musically. They also have the edge in looks, IMO, and in my girlfirends opinion too (which we all know is really the limiting factor here!). However, all the reviews mean nothing if I can't tell the difference when I listen to them. If I can't hear the difference, no point paying the difference!

    Unfortunately, I don't have hours and hours to test systems. Forums (and reviews) are great for helping to narrow down the choices before the 'test drive'. Based on what I've read here, I think I'll narrow my list down to Paradigm's and Totem's. Seems like I can't relly lose with either of those.

    Also, isn't A&B closed now (bankrupt?)? The one by my place has been empty for some time now.

  23. #23
    Forum Regular Nich's Avatar
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    I also live in Calgary, and A&B sound still around. One in the south and one in the north. K&W also carries Totem. I had a chance to listen to the Totem Rainmakers and I was impressed with them. They quoted me a pair for $1000.00/pr...$100.00 extra for Cherry and Maple Finish. The Centre Rainmaker is $900.00....$100.00 extra for Cherry and Maple. You can buy another pair and problem solved.

    Try and give them a listen; you wont be dissapointed

  24. #24
    RGA
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    Yes they were under bankruptcy protection but a fellow in Richmond BC bought the chain. they were hit hard when Yamaha went to FutureShop and was A&B's main line of amps.

    I think Totem is good just overpriced -- I recently heard a $4,000.00Cdn (which was hevily reduced in price I believe) Totem Mani-2 and it was good but let's just say there is MUCH better to my ear for MUCH less.

    The Arro was also good but again speakers at HALF the price I have found to my ear to be MUCH better --- even the Energy C5 while rougher around the edges was also more engaging and FUN to listen to.

    Well kex I don't want to get into a flame war with paradigm supporters -- but if price were equal ($1250.00Cdn) I would buy the C9 over the Paradigm Studio 100 V3 -- since the price is not equal it's a no brainer for me. The two are not that different to be frank sonically but my audition of the 100V3 didn't impress me in the least.

    http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/me...onnoisseur_c9/
    http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/me..._studio100_v3/

    And beside this for the same price of the paradigm you can get Energy Veritas line!!

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    RGA:

    Do you know where I can find a comparative frequency response chart for the Totem's (Sttaf preferably)?

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