Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 40
  1. #1
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    36

    38k but still not perfect.

    I find it humorous that the 38k pair of hansen speakers being reviewed by stereophile mag this month are still found to be worthy of criticism. This is their mid priced offering. LOL. Having heard a variety of hi end speakers and having been an audio hobbyist for 25 years, I thinks it's safe to say that speakers over the 15k mark are a total rip off.
    I'm not saying that they aren't great speakers. I'm sure they are sublime. However, I can get sublime speakers for 10k. Since 10k buys sound as good as 38k, 38k is a rip off no matter how excellent. If you've got the money and 38k is pretty much the same as 10k to you, then go for it. For the rest of us it is ridiculous.

  2. #2
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    2,908
    It's a subjective matter. Some people might say they can get speakers for 3k that sound as good as speakers that cost 10k.

  3. #3
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    36
    I agree that it is subjective. However, what you get for 10k compared to 3k can be seen in physical differences that can account for cost. Not true when comparing 10k to 50k speakers. There is zero justification for the price. The retail price is not correleated in any way to production costs. In speakers under 10k there does exist a correlation between retail price and production cost.
    Since there is no justification in material cost, how could a 50k pair possibly sound better than a 10k pair? A manufacturer can easily produce speakers using identical materials for 10k. Probably, significantly less.

  4. #4
    Forum Regular elapsed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    542
    For the same money, Sonus Faber Stradivari Homage would be top of my list: http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/105sonus/

    That being said, they cost 10x my own speakers (which coincidentally have the same drivers), but I can at least see where some of this money has gone towards. Absolutely exquisite, these speakers are a work of art. But as you both said, this is a very subjective purchase (in both sound and aesthetics).

    cheers,
    elapsed
    Fidelity Acoustics RFM-2 speakers
    Naim CD5x cd player
    Naim NAC 122x pre-amp
    Naim NAP 150x poweramp
    Naim FlatCap-2x power supply
    Naim Stageline N phono stage
    Naim NACA5 speaker cabling
    Naim Hi-Line interconnect
    Chord Crimson interconnects
    Rega Planar 3 turntable
    Goldring 1042 cartridge
    Squeezebox 3
    Oppo DV-983H dvd player
    Harmony 890 remote
    Quadraspire Q4 shelving
    Wiremold L10320 power strip

    System Picture #1 | System Picture #2 | System Design

  5. #5
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    2,710
    For that kind of money I could get some ML CLX's.
    ARC SP9 MKIII, VPI HW19, Rega RB300
    Marcof PPA1, Shure, Sumiko, Ortofon carts, Yamaha DVD-S1800
    Behringer UCA222, Emotiva XDA-2, HiFimeDIY
    Accuphase T101, Teac V-7010, Nak ZX-7. LX-5, Behringer DSP1124P
    Front: Magnepan 1.7, DBX 223SX, 2 modified Dynaco MK3's, 2, 12" DIY TL subs (Pass El-Pipe-O) 2 bridged Crown XLS-402
    Rear/HT: Emotiva UMC200, Acoustat Model 1/SPW-1, Behringer CX2310, 2 Adcom GFA-545

  6. #6
    Forum Regular elapsed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    542
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    For that kind of money I could get some ML CLX's.
    Only 25K.. that gives you plenty of remaining budget for some huge monoblocks to drive these beasts.

    cheers,
    elapsed
    Fidelity Acoustics RFM-2 speakers
    Naim CD5x cd player
    Naim NAC 122x pre-amp
    Naim NAP 150x poweramp
    Naim FlatCap-2x power supply
    Naim Stageline N phono stage
    Naim NACA5 speaker cabling
    Naim Hi-Line interconnect
    Chord Crimson interconnects
    Rega Planar 3 turntable
    Goldring 1042 cartridge
    Squeezebox 3
    Oppo DV-983H dvd player
    Harmony 890 remote
    Quadraspire Q4 shelving
    Wiremold L10320 power strip

    System Picture #1 | System Picture #2 | System Design

  7. #7
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    2,908
    Anyone know where I could get a pair of Von Schweikert VR-11 online? Maybe accessories4less.com has a refurb pair?

  8. #8
    Forum Regular Kevio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    452
    You guys are silly. Marketing people know you price a product based upon what you think you can get your market to pay for it. It doesn't have anything to do with what they cost you to build and in the realm of luxury goods it doesn't even need to have anything to do with what others are charging.

    And of course a manufacturer-friendly magazine like Sterophile is going to find problems if the solution to those problems is to upsell to a more expensive speaker from the same manufacturer.

  9. #9
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    2,908
    People with lots of dough actually want to pay more for luxury goods, whether they consciously think about it or not. It's more exclusive that way. There woudn't necessarily be more cost to make a Louis Vuitton bag than a Coach bag, but look at the price difference.

  10. #10
    Ajani
    Guest
    I'm not going to get into the debate about whether a $38K pair of speakers sounds better than a $10K pair.... that argument has been beaten to death, resurrected and killed again too many times on audio forums...

    However, what I do find interesting is the notion that a $38K speaker should have any real faults (ignoring reviewer preferences)... for that kind of money, the speaker should just be exceptional all around... Frankly for $10K I'd expect all around exceptional....

  11. #11
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Mortsel, Antwerp, Belgium, Europe, Earth
    Posts
    3,056
    Quote Originally Posted by elapsed
    Only 25K.. that gives you plenty of remaining budget for some huge monoblocks to drive these beasts.

    cheers,
    elapsed

    funny you say that, I just heard the 25 anniversary edition CLX's today...

    great speakers, and not really that hard to drive...
    well, no, not every amp will do, but they're far easier to drive than the CLS's before them, or many other speakers...


    article coming here on AR tomorrow or so

    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.
    Life is music!

    Mcintosh MA6400 Integrated
    Double Advent speakers
    Thiel CS2.3's
    *DIY Lenco L75 TT
    * SME 3012 S2
    * Rega RB-301
    *Denon DL-103 in midas body
    *Denon DL-304
    *Graham slee elevator EXP & revelation
    *Lehmann audio black cube SE
    Marantz CD5001 OSE
    MIT AVt 2 IC's
    Sonic link Black earth IC's
    Siltech MXT New york IC's
    Kimber 4VS speakercable
    Furutech powercord and plugs.

    I'm a happy 20 year old...

  12. #12
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    2,710
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevio
    You guys are silly. Marketing people know you price a product based upon what you think you can get your market to pay for it. It doesn't have anything to do with what they cost you to build and in the realm of luxury goods it doesn't even need to have anything to do with what others are charging.

    And of course a manufacturer-friendly magazine like Sterophile is going to find problems if the solution to those problems is to upsell to a more expensive speaker from the same manufacturer.
    If the glossy mags were not manufacturer friendly would they get all that megabuck gear to test? I think not.
    ARC SP9 MKIII, VPI HW19, Rega RB300
    Marcof PPA1, Shure, Sumiko, Ortofon carts, Yamaha DVD-S1800
    Behringer UCA222, Emotiva XDA-2, HiFimeDIY
    Accuphase T101, Teac V-7010, Nak ZX-7. LX-5, Behringer DSP1124P
    Front: Magnepan 1.7, DBX 223SX, 2 modified Dynaco MK3's, 2, 12" DIY TL subs (Pass El-Pipe-O) 2 bridged Crown XLS-402
    Rear/HT: Emotiva UMC200, Acoustat Model 1/SPW-1, Behringer CX2310, 2 Adcom GFA-545

  13. #13
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Santa Rosa, CA
    Posts
    968
    There is close to zero volume discount for speakers selling in the $20K and up price range because the volume is tiny. Actual costs are much higher than you might suppose. My friend and I built two pairs of three way of our own where the objective was to match 20K or better speakers. Our raw costs were about $5K per pair with free labor

    For a three way 6 drivers easily run $1,200
    If the crossover uses silver coils and first class capacitors $2,000 isn't hard
    Cabinets and labor can easily reach $2,500
    Recover development costs ???

    All that totals $5,700. To pay the rent etc most companies need to double their costs so these would wholesale for $11,400. We need to add some for development, who knows how long, but a year is reasonable. Next the dealer and distributors add their mark-up and bingo $25,000 to $30,000.

    Expensive as all get out, but not a rip off and not gouging. Only you can decide if the sound improvement equals the additional cost increment since decent speakers can be had for closer to $3,500.
    Herman;

    My stuff:
    Olive Musica/transport and server
    Mark Levinson No.360S D to A
    Passive pre (homemade; Shallco, Vishay, Cardas wire/connectors)
    Cardas Golden Presence IC
    Pass Labs X250
    Martin Logan ReQuests.

  14. #14
    Forum Regular Kevio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    452
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    If the glossy mags were not manufacturer friendly would they get all that megabuck gear to test? I think not.
    Sure, but the principal driver for friendly relations has got to be the advertising revenue.
    Last edited by Kevio; 02-22-2009 at 01:37 PM.

  15. #15
    Ajani
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    There is close to zero volume discount for speakers selling in the $20K and up price range because the volume is tiny. Actual costs are much higher than you might suppose. My friend and I built two pairs of three way of our own where the objective was to match 20K or better speakers. Our raw costs were about $5K per pair with free labor

    For a three way 6 drivers easily run $1,200
    If the crossover uses silver coils and first class capacitors $2,000 isn't hard
    Cabinets and labor can easily reach $2,500
    Recover development costs ???

    All that totals $5,700. To pay the rent etc most companies need to double their costs so these would wholesale for $11,400. We need to add some for development, who knows how long, but a year is reasonable. Next the dealer and distributors add their mark-up and bingo $25,000 to $30,000.

    Expensive as all get out, but not a rip off and not gouging. Only you can decide if the sound improvement equals the additional cost increment since decent speakers can be had for closer to $3,500.
    Well said

    People always look at just raw material and possibly labour costs for speakers/equipment and not all the other expenses that go into producing mega-bucks Hi-Fi gear... Most products whether audio or otherwise are "overpriced" if you only consider labour and raw material (direct costs)... but when you add in all the overheads, selling and distribution expenses, normal profit margins etc etc etc... suddenly prices make a lot more sense... (though of course, there are some products that are plain rip-offs)...

    Whether, the difference in price between a $40K speaker and a $4K speaker is justified is solely up to the person writing the cheque!!!

    $3,500 is where I think you can get high-end speakers (not SOTA or absolute perfection)... I think you can get the next best thing from a mere $1K -$1.5K (Whether the tripling in price to get to high-end is worth it, is also up to the person writing the cheque).

  16. #16
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539
    I of course agree with HermanV and Ajani.

    First to the issue of perceived weaknesses - a Ferrari is WEAK when it comes to creature comforts, amenities, and comfort compared to a Bentley. The Bentley is weak compared to a Ferrari where high speed and high speed handling is concerned. But they're both better than a Ford anything.

    The design of the loudspeaker may or may not appeal to your ear period - but there are plenty of $35k+ loudspeakers on the market and perhaps one of them will do it for you.

    Secondly, as the others have noted costs just are not the same with small production loudspeakers that are hand built versus stuff stamped out of an assembly line using the cheapest parts available at a marketing department's and accounting departments demand that X part must cost .005 cents each rather than what is the best part - use it and then price the thing accordingly.

    Price and value is determined by the individual. If you hear a $50k loudspeaker that brings you to a catharsis when you listen and the $10k one does not then despite the measurements of how many drivers or types of drivers and box or no box etc then $50k is money well spent and $10k is not. The reverse may be true. I have only heard one loudspeaker under $10k that I would buy over my loudspeaker and it's from the same maker. Another person may like a speaker at $1k more than my speaker and view mine as overpriced and "insane" for that kind of money. So be it - you can't please all the people all the time...

  17. #17
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    2,710
    I guess you haven't seen or heard of the Bently Continental Flying Spur.

    0 to 60 mph in 4.6 sec Top speed 195 mph.

    Very fast with all the luxury and comfort anyone could want in a 4 door sedan.
    ARC SP9 MKIII, VPI HW19, Rega RB300
    Marcof PPA1, Shure, Sumiko, Ortofon carts, Yamaha DVD-S1800
    Behringer UCA222, Emotiva XDA-2, HiFimeDIY
    Accuphase T101, Teac V-7010, Nak ZX-7. LX-5, Behringer DSP1124P
    Front: Magnepan 1.7, DBX 223SX, 2 modified Dynaco MK3's, 2, 12" DIY TL subs (Pass El-Pipe-O) 2 bridged Crown XLS-402
    Rear/HT: Emotiva UMC200, Acoustat Model 1/SPW-1, Behringer CX2310, 2 Adcom GFA-545

  18. #18
    RGA
    RGA is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,539
    Yeah I figured someone would mention it - hopefully however the point was not lost. Perhaps I should have said Bugatti

  19. #19
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    France
    Posts
    2,523
    No a Bugatti goes even faster. 250+mph for their latest model

  20. #20
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    2,710
    It has 2 doors and 2 seats. I presume you mean the Veyron.
    ARC SP9 MKIII, VPI HW19, Rega RB300
    Marcof PPA1, Shure, Sumiko, Ortofon carts, Yamaha DVD-S1800
    Behringer UCA222, Emotiva XDA-2, HiFimeDIY
    Accuphase T101, Teac V-7010, Nak ZX-7. LX-5, Behringer DSP1124P
    Front: Magnepan 1.7, DBX 223SX, 2 modified Dynaco MK3's, 2, 12" DIY TL subs (Pass El-Pipe-O) 2 bridged Crown XLS-402
    Rear/HT: Emotiva UMC200, Acoustat Model 1/SPW-1, Behringer CX2310, 2 Adcom GFA-545

  21. #21
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    8,127

    Oh yeah!

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    It has 2 doors and 2 seats. I presume you mean the Veyron.
    The Veyron. Now there's true excess.
    ...

  22. #22
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    2,710
    You have to admit it is kind of homely looking.
    ARC SP9 MKIII, VPI HW19, Rega RB300
    Marcof PPA1, Shure, Sumiko, Ortofon carts, Yamaha DVD-S1800
    Behringer UCA222, Emotiva XDA-2, HiFimeDIY
    Accuphase T101, Teac V-7010, Nak ZX-7. LX-5, Behringer DSP1124P
    Front: Magnepan 1.7, DBX 223SX, 2 modified Dynaco MK3's, 2, 12" DIY TL subs (Pass El-Pipe-O) 2 bridged Crown XLS-402
    Rear/HT: Emotiva UMC200, Acoustat Model 1/SPW-1, Behringer CX2310, 2 Adcom GFA-545

  23. #23
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Mortsel, Antwerp, Belgium, Europe, Earth
    Posts
    3,056
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
    You have to admit it is kind of homely looking.


    I actually like it, It's a beast. It might not be as slim as other exotic cars, but where else would they house all that power?

    It's amazing in a Wilson Audio Alexandria sort of way

    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.
    Life is music!

    Mcintosh MA6400 Integrated
    Double Advent speakers
    Thiel CS2.3's
    *DIY Lenco L75 TT
    * SME 3012 S2
    * Rega RB-301
    *Denon DL-103 in midas body
    *Denon DL-304
    *Graham slee elevator EXP & revelation
    *Lehmann audio black cube SE
    Marantz CD5001 OSE
    MIT AVt 2 IC's
    Sonic link Black earth IC's
    Siltech MXT New york IC's
    Kimber 4VS speakercable
    Furutech powercord and plugs.

    I'm a happy 20 year old...

  24. #24
    Phila combat zone JoeE SP9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    2,710
    Most Wilsons are kind of homely also.
    ARC SP9 MKIII, VPI HW19, Rega RB300
    Marcof PPA1, Shure, Sumiko, Ortofon carts, Yamaha DVD-S1800
    Behringer UCA222, Emotiva XDA-2, HiFimeDIY
    Accuphase T101, Teac V-7010, Nak ZX-7. LX-5, Behringer DSP1124P
    Front: Magnepan 1.7, DBX 223SX, 2 modified Dynaco MK3's, 2, 12" DIY TL subs (Pass El-Pipe-O) 2 bridged Crown XLS-402
    Rear/HT: Emotiva UMC200, Acoustat Model 1/SPW-1, Behringer CX2310, 2 Adcom GFA-545

  25. #25
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    France
    Posts
    2,523
    That wasn't necessary Feanor. I'm finding it difficult enough not having the possibility to drive while at university here
    Keep it to audio please

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •