38k but still not perfect.

[audio amateur]

Speaking of which, I'm heading home in a couple weeks for a few days to attend the Geneva Motor Show

[E-Stat]

For that kind of money I could get some ML CLX's.

Have you ever heard any Sound Lab models? They radiate into a far wider angle and still use full range elements like your Acoustats. The CLX is a two way design with half the bandwidth at the bottom requiring subwoofers for the same 25 hz response.

rw

[E-Stat]

You guys are silly. Marketing people know you price a product based upon what you think you can get your market to pay for it. It doesn't have anything to do with what they cost you to build...

I'll agree with that to an extent when it comes to selecting which cones to put in a box. Such is not the case when all driver fabrication is necessarily hand made as in the case of my speakers. There are a sum total of zero full range electrostatic drivers available from Parts Express. Then there's the case of competition - you cannot price your product above that of other similar designs and still be successful unless there is some value.

As a point of reference, what would be the speakers you'd choose for the proverbial desert island? - wired for AC of course.

rw

[hermanv]

You guys are silly. Marketing people know you price a product based upon what you think you can get your market to pay for it. It doesn't have anything to do with what they cost you to build and in the realm of luxury goods it doesn't even need to have anything to do with what others are charging.

This is only true if there is no real competition (which could well be the case for some of the exotic speakers, MBL anyone?) If there is competition, prices are driven down to a fixed multiple of costs. Since marketing people hate that eventuality, they try and find ways to express how different (better) their product is even if it means stretching the truth.

[Kevio]

Competition exists only if you can make direct comparisons between products. Marketing professionals make concerted efforts to "differentiate" their products from potential competitors and thus weaken the effects of competition.

In the best case, differentiation is a patented innovation. But more frequently, differentiation consists of altering the appearance, developing a novel or unexploited distribution and/or sales model or writing technically impressive sounding sales pitch.

[Feanor]

Competition exists only if you can make direct comparisons between products. Marketing professionals make concerted efforts to "differentiate" their products from potential competitors and thus weaken the effects of competition.

In the best case, differentiation is a patented innovation. But more frequently, differentiation consists of altering the appearance, developing a novel or unexploited distribution and/or sales model or writing technically impressive sounding sales pitch.

Then there's market stratification whereby a vendor seeks to differential on model in the line from another. Generally this takes the form of adding "features" and increasing the price much more than proportionally to the cost. A particularly egregious example of this is Audio Note who take an inherently cheap design and goose to a gilded $40k, sucker-bait speaker.

[Ajani]

Then there's market stratification whereby a vendor seeks to differential on model in the line from another. Generally this takes the form of adding "features" and increasing the price much more than proportionally to the cost. A particularly egregious example of this is Audio Note who take an inherently cheap design and goose to a gilded $40k, sucker-bait speaker.

Someone is itching for a fight...

Where's my popcorn???

[GMichael]

How about a pair of these? http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speak...7_1594crx.aspx

For more than I paid for our house, they should do more than just play music.

[nightflier]

Anyone can make an expensive speaker, but to make an inexpensive, competitively-priced one, that takes work, research, cooperation between the different interests in one's company, and a reputation for value. Here's a question: do those Hansen's really sound better than oh, I dunno, a pair of Mordaunt-Short Performance 6 speakers at a fraction of the price, but that use similar construction techniques? Do they sound better or just different?

On the hand-built side, Talon makes some pretty expensive speakers, but are they better than say Meadowlark speakers? I've heard several models from both companies and while they sound different, I couldn't tell you that the Talon ones sound better. Aside from the specs (the Talons can take a lot more) they don't differ that much. That said, Meadowlark is out of business while Talon has managed to survive, even if their top engineers left for other digs (like equally-expensive Escalante).

I've seen Hansen speakers at shows and frankly, I don't see where all that money went. To hear the reps, it's all in the engineering and research, but I can only accept so much of that. And as far as sound (mind you, this was at the show), they did not sound as good as Revel's ultimas. That said, for my hard-earned money, I'd be very happy with a pair of second hand Revel Performas, too, although they do look a bit more plain.

That brings up another factor: looks. People that buy $40K speakers want something that impresses as much as their Lambo does in the driveway. At those higher price-points I think they should look as beautiful as they sound. Hansens don't look the part. For looks, it's hard to beat Sonus which I'd take over any Gershman, and likewise I'd take Avalons over Wilsons. But that's just me.

[RGA]

Then there's market stratification whereby a vendor seeks to differential on model in the line from another. Generally this takes the form of adding "features" and increasing the price much more than proportionally to the cost. A particularly egregious example of this is Audio Note who take an inherently cheap design and goose to a gilded $40k, sucker-bait speaker.

On the appearance of the AN E I see you could make the argument but do you actually know what the differences are between the $40k version and say the $6,500 version and the $2k Kit?

Unlike EVERY other maker in the entire audio industry you can actually purchase stripped down versions or flip the coin - turbo charged versions. So many audiophiles spend a lot of money changing caps and wiring in their loudspeakers which is in part doing the exact same thing. Or they go and get their amp or cd player "modded" which is in essence the same thing.

Granted the $40k version may not be worth it in the sense that the models down may be viewed as "close enough" to not bother - but I've heard a number of $40k and more speakers over the last 20 years and so has Constantine Soo. Having heard them, I agree with his choice.

This dealer carries Kharma, Soundlabs, Marten Designs at a whopping $250,000US for their speakers, and the AN E Sec/Sig. They could have carried anything from anybody and it keeps good company.

And despite all those top speaker names when it comes to the AN E Sec/Sig - maybe the least costly of those speakers - "These are what I call my desert island speakers."

http://audiofederation.com/blog/archives/178

Constantine Soo's review of the costly standmount.
www.dagogo.com/AudioNoteAN-E-SEC-SIGNATURE.html

[Feanor]

Someone is itching for a fight...

Where's my popcorn???

It's just too easy

[Florian]

Hi RGA,

maybe Mr. Soo also takes the size, complexity and room requirements into consideration. For some people it is not worth it to rent a crane, instal 160 ampere breaker boxes, move hunders of kilos around, use 8 or more amplifiers. In that case, he made his choice by taking all points into consideration, not only sound. Just a thought.

The almost same can be applied to me, i just spend 10000$ on some used amps. I could sell my system and buy the top Audio Note speaker. But i dont, just like Mr. Soo i could buy the Audio Note system. What does this tell you?

[RGA]

The difference is that Constantine has heard and owned Apogee and is not biased by what others say.

Of course people consider other things besides sound - speakers that require gymnasium sized rooms and 8 amplifiers, cranes and electric companies to come out to change the transformers will have an impact - but requiring all of that does not indicate that the sound will be any better. The Model Nautilus requires a bunch of amplifiers and it costs more than the AN E Sec Sig and looks better and it even has deeper bass - but the AN E/Sec Sig to my ear sounds considerably better. I grant you that is subjective - it always is where sound is concerned but just because something needs a lot of amps and weighs a million pounds does not in the least make it better. Surely you don't associate quality with weight.

[Florian]

Of course i dont, the point i am making is that i am in a similar situation as Mr. Soo but still come to a different conclusion ;-)

I owned almost all models Apogee ever made (C-Minor, Caliper Sig., DIVA, Scintilla, Grand and Stage) in various rooms. I have enough money to buy the big Audio Note. I have the "same" choice as Mr. Soo..... but still the outcome is different. I would not take the speaker to a desert island with me.

Cheers

[RGA]

The difference is that Constantine has listened to both and made a decision based on the sound. You have not heard the AN E and are basing your decision on your bias toward Apogee or a bias against boxed loudspeakers. Also to be fair one might also prefer the sonics of the Apogee had they heard both. While I don't I do not speak for all people.

And like you said there are many reasons to buy speakers other than sound.