$12k ?

[the hand of boredom]

Hey Everyone,

I hope you are all enjoying the music.

I need to start searching for a speaker/amp/sub combination for my next system. I already have the pre, cd, and all cables.

I will have $12K, which is repayment from my best friend for several favours over the years. I don't need to spend all of it, but will be looking for a subtantial combination.

I listen all sorts of music, from Pizarrelli and Krall, to Snoop and Dr. Dre, to Rachmaninov.

I have listened to and really like the Marting Logan's Aeon and Ascent, and KEF's Reference 201. For amps, I have always liked Bryston, but then found Musical Fidelity to be smoother (with less 'grip' on the bottom end), and McIntosh to be more lush. What I would like are some other models to search for. What is comptetive at this price point?

Thanks for you help.

THOB

[Geoffcin]

Hey Everyone,

I hope you are all enjoying the music.

I need to start searching for a speaker/amp/sub combination for my next system. I already have the pre, cd, and all cables.

I will have $12K, which is repayment from my best friend for several favours over the years. I don't need to spend all of it, but will be looking for a subtantial combination.

I listen all sorts of music, from Pizarrelli and Krall, to Snoop and Dr. Dre, to Rachmaninov.

I have listened to and really like the Marting Logan's Aeon and Ascent, and KEF's Reference 201. For amps, I have always liked Bryston, but then found Musical Fidelity to be smoother (with less 'grip' on the bottom end), and McIntosh to be more lush. What I would like are some other models to search for. What is comptetive at this price point?

Thanks for you help.

THOB

Although you might have to stretch you budget a bit, the large maggies are an outstanding speaker, and can hold their own against any in the "unlimited" class.

[the hand of boredom]

how much do the 20.1 speakers go for? I remember hearing the 3.6 a few years ago, and found the presentation to be quite deep, where I prefer the presentation to be more into the room. That said, they were really clean and tranferred alot of info, ie, detail!!!

[Florian]

The 20.1 goes used for around 11K.

[thepogue]

it's easy to spend money...even 12K can be gone in a flash...so the REAL question is "What do you want to get for the $$$ spent"? I know that sounds simple...but it's really the bottom line. What sound do you like? (tubes warmth, SS punch, bla bal bla) How long are you going to keep the equipment?...if your heading down the "trade up road" then buy used (ALWAYS IMHO) and start in the middle of the product line. In this way you'll have some true life experience w/ the gear and you can move up the produce line or if it doesn't suit you move to something else...AND not lose yer shirt doing it! alos by living w/ the geag you can audtion other pieces with much more confidence in what your hearing (as opposed to what you own). I've swapped lots of gear in and out of my systme (home) and can tell you ther is no replacement for spending some long hours with gear. As stated above shop around...try lots of dealers and lots of gear...and find something close so you can build a relationship w/your local dealer...it will payoff for the both of you! Just me two cents.


Peace-out, Pogue

[Jimmy C]

Hey Everyone,

I hope you are all enjoying the music.

I need to start searching for a speaker/amp/sub combination for my next system. I already have the pre, cd, and all cables.

I will have $12K, which is repayment from my best friend for several favours over the years. I don't need to spend all of it, but will be looking for a subtantial combination.

I listen all sorts of music, from Pizarrelli and Krall, to Snoop and Dr. Dre, to Rachmaninov.

I have listened to and really like the Marting Logan's Aeon and Ascent, and KEF's Reference 201. For amps, I have always liked Bryston, but then found Musical Fidelity to be smoother (with less 'grip' on the bottom end), and McIntosh to be more lush. What I would like are some other models to search for. What is comptetive at this price point?

Thanks for you help.

THOB

...put most of the money in the bank... ya, know... that "rainy day" thing. O.K., your friend owes you a lot... why would you want to burn it up on a stereo? That money is extra... if you had the x-tra already, why didn't you do it earlier? Keep it.

No one can tell you what is best... bring in your pre and listen to as many speakers as possible. I have always thought the pre makes a w-a-y bigger diff in final sound than the amp... it's up to you.

I did like the Kef Ref series (albeit with problems for the $$$), and I have some bigger issues with Martin Logans... but they do some things VERY well. Again, your call.

That's a lotta money... I would look around A LOT!

I would also feel better with a $5K rig and $10 in reserve :^)

[RGA]

Best advice is not rush and make sure you spend a lot of time at a dealer listening. When I go to an audio shop I usually spend the entire day there listening to stuff with a stop for lunch and to rest my ears. Not many dealers will take the time so find ones who do or take a vacation with your $12k and go to Soundhounds in Victoria BC. That way you can hear several speakers of varying designs. Nice to get a vacation out of the money too and usually Soundhounds turns me on to three or four new artists (new to me) that I can go out and buy albums. You'll be able to hear Mcintosh, Bryston, YBA and MF etc there all in the same room to boot. http://www.soundhounds.com/ They even have Magnepan -- My dealer there used to have the 20.1 and upgraded but he would have insights to offer -- while they don't carry the top line because they want to see how the lower models sell against their other lines you can get a decent idea.

Martin Logan makes pretty good speakers and they look cool. Nothing wrong with them if you like them -- but I would make sure your audition is long -- the one thing I notice is the lack of panel woofer integration so it causes a lack of cohesiveness -- if you don't hear it then bonus and my other quibble is price which is pretty high for what you get. Magnepan has a similar imprint for less money and I find them a better value especially the 1.6 versus say the Aerius i (and ascent) and in some respects the Oddysy, and Prodigy.

I would listen to lots of different systems and be sure to try single ended tube based high efficiency set-ups as well. For the wide range of music you listen to I would want the ability to play everything both macrodynamically and microdynamics with premium low level resolution capability and something that really has the follow through on decay.

[point_and_shoot]

I would also give Digital Phase a serious consideration. It is what I use and I could not be happier. I have owned Definitive, Snell, Mission, Klipsch, Phase Technology, etc. and I have auditioned a host of others. In my humble opinion these are the very best for the money. As an added benefit you could save about 80% of your budget. (if you did not order the flagship EP line)

[dingus]

$12k? with that i would start with some Vandersteen 3a's or Quattro's and have enough left over for some nice amplification.

[GMichael]

Best advice is not rush and make sure you spend a lot of time at a dealer listening. When I go to an audio shop I usually spend the entire day there listening to stuff with a stop for lunch and to rest my ears. Not many dealers will take the time so find ones who do or take a vacation with your $12k and go to Soundhounds in Victoria BC. That way you can hear several speakers of varying designs. Nice to get a vacation out of the money too and usually Soundhounds turns me on to three or four new artists (new to me) that I can go out and buy albums. You'll be able to hear Mcintosh, Bryston, YBA and MF etc there all in the same room to boot. http://www.soundhounds.com/ They even have Magnepan -- My dealer there used to have the 20.1 and upgraded but he would have insights to offer -- while they don't carry the top line because they want to see how the lower models sell against their other lines you can get a decent idea.

Martin Logan makes pretty good speakers and they look cool. Nothing wrong with them if you like them -- but I would make sure your audition is long -- the one thing I notice is the lack of panel woofer integration so it causes a lack of cohesiveness -- if you don't hear it then bonus and my other quibble is price which is pretty high for what you get. Magnepan has a similar imprint for less money and I find them a better value especially the 1.6 versus say the Aerius i (and ascent) and in some respects the Oddysy, and Prodigy.

I would listen to lots of different systems and be sure to try single ended tube based high efficiency set-ups as well. For the wide range of music you listen to I would want the ability to play everything both macrodynamically and microdynamics with premium low level resolution capability and something that really has the follow through on decay.

The entire day there listening to stuff? Do you bring coffee for everyone?

[the hand of boredom]

Never heard of Digital Phase, and don't know where to get 'em, but that is the power of Google.

I have eyed Vandersteen before but have not had a chance to hear any of their models yet.

Jimmy, thank for the financial plan, do you work for Meryll Lynch or something? I don't need to spend the whole amount on a rig as I'm greatly aware of the laws of diminishing returns.

I essentially spent years building a decent system consisting of Paradigm Reference, Musical Fidelity, Anthem with significant upgrades to each. Had some trouble with roommates, life troubles and the lot, and my best friend showed his true colours and brought me in, until I was able to get grounded again. To show my humble appreciation for his help in turning my life around, I donated my system to him. And over the years I have been as good a friend to him as he's been to me, and helped him deal with things that have gone on in his life.

Soon, he will be repaying me for several favours that I Have done for him in the last few years, including helping with getting his house built. That is where the dough is coming from. Again I don't need to spend it all. Just looking for a well-rounded amp/speak/sub combo.

I appreciate all your input.

What amps can help me fill the void?

THOB

[Florian]

Ok let me take a stab at

Used Magnepan MG3.6R for 3200$
New Crossovers for Maggies (internal) 200$
Active Crossover from Behringer for 300$
Conrad Johnson P12 for Mid/Hi for 3400$
Krell KSA250B Europe for Bass for 2400$
Magnan Cable for speakers around 1500$
Allen Wreight Sony 777ES SACD Player for 2500$

This is a good step in the right direction in my book. But this is 13500$ with no room treatments. So lets see what we can do.

We stick with the 3.6R for 3200$
Build new passive x-overs for 400$
Conrad Johnson P12 for 3400$
Magnan Cable for speakers for 1500$
Allen Wreight Sony 777ES SACD Player for 2500$
Interconnects from Magnan too

This is a system that will put almost all out there to shame and remains in a sane category. 11000$ for it all but you dont want to do that either since its pointless if you dont have the right room and you wont be able to know what steps to take next since this is in a different league then a Paradigm Reference.

So let me take another stab at it.

Magnepan 1.6R used for 1500$
New Crossovers for 400$
A Pathos Logos AMP for 3000$ used
Allen Wreight Sony 777ES SACD Player for 2500$
1000$ on room equipment treatments.
2x used Carver True Subwoofers for 1500$ total

This is a very satisfying system with a good mixture or all. For 9900$ very good also.

Do you want a HT? What room is it? How much glass do you have? What music do you listen too? If you want some real detailed help then i can give you call and we can chat about this.

Cheers

Flo

[point_and_shoot]

Never heard of Digital Phase, and don't know where to get 'em, but that is the power of Google.

This is a picture of Digital Phase's upper end speaker models. I can get you the contact iformation if you so desire.

[RGA]

The entire day there listening to stuff? Do you bring coffee for everyone?

No actually they traded speakers years ago for a capuccino making machine that Starbucks would be proud of. They were happy to note that the speakers are now worthless and the Capuccino machino has gone up in value. They make great Capuccino's which makes my 2 hour greyhound trip each way worth it.

I intend to go again but I am waiting to see if they;re going to bring in the 20.1. In May or so they told me they would bring in the 3.6 and 20.1 if sales of the 1.6 and whatever the one down from it sold well. I am a bit surprised because I liked the 1.6 - but they carry stiffer competition when the price gets into the 3k+ range and it's a lot of outlay for a dealer to bring this expensive stuff in since they have to pay for it.

Interestingly, one fellow purchased a $70,000.00 Single ended tube ampllifer from Soundhounds and there is a 7 month wait list as the designer was adamant that the right capacitor be used and there is no substitution and had to wait on the part -- with the dollar fluctuating at the time so much placing an order today and wait 7 months the sale could mean one is out $5k in currency conversion differences -- so the guy had to pay up front in cash as the credit card company also takes 3% and 3% on 70k is real money. Though they gave the guy a loaner Amp for the seven months. A teacher in my town was upgrading his speaker (shipped back to England to get it to a higher level) and they gave him my speakers as a loaner for several months which he in turn loaned out to several audiophile friends in town - as he was going on vacation.

The dealer is pretty darn good in most every way in this regard because lending products around and letting people have it a while to decide and zero pressure people can just compare to whatever it is they currently have. Then Soundhounds can get another sale on the speaker, get more customers, but also maybe get that person's trade in speaker to sell as well. Free coffee and sometimes donuts, new tunes and a lot of stuff to compare. The website does not reflect all that they carry. they bring in stuff recommended to them by people they trust and have a number of stuff they try. They go to the CES every year to see what else they can bring in.

It's the best dealer I have been to by a mile -- though I liked the dealer I had at Commercial Electronics for being a straight shooter and saving me from making bad and expensive upgrades that would have made him more money but not me happy. That is really really rare in my experience.

I felt like a ramble - it's been a while.

[thepogue]

two hour greyhound trip?...whew...you Da man....within two hours I can be in North Carolina or Maryland 3 hours north to DC...within an hour I'd guess I'm blessed with 8 or 9 dealers..but I really only hang in one shop. Digital Sound, they carry Linn, B&W, Classis, Rotel, Rega, bla bla bla...but all the real deals are used (like snagging my Prodigy's)


next time your on a bus trip...come to virginia!..lol

Pogue

[the hand of boredom]

Hey Everyone,

I hope you are all enjoying the music.

I need to start searching for a speaker/amp/sub combination for my next system. I already have the pre, cd, and all cables.

I will have $12K, which is repayment from my best friend for several favours over the years. I don't need to spend all of it, but will be looking for a subtantial combination.

I listen all sorts of music, from Pizarrelli and Krall, to Snoop and Dr. Dre, to Rachmaninov.

I have listened to and really like the Marting Logan's Aeon and Ascent, and KEF's Reference 201. For amps, I have always liked Bryston, but then found Musical Fidelity to be smoother (with less 'grip' on the bottom end), and McIntosh to be more lush. What I would like are some other models to search for. What is comptetive at this price point?

Thanks for you help.

THOB

Made a trip to a local dealer today along with the repetoire of music. The listening was closed off to me for an hour and I had a chance to hear the Magnepan 3.6R bi-amped with a pair of Moon W8 amps.

Needless to say, I liked the system very much. Definitely many strengths: the speakers do not have a very large footprint, and are very unique looking. The detail is abundant with a very smooth and open soundstage. The highs very natural and as clean as any speaker I have ever heard. Midrange and especially vocals were so fluid and effortless, the little breaths between verses could be heard as well as the licking of some lips. The bottom end was clean; much detail in the plucking of the bass guitar. However, I would be looking at a sub for sure to hammer out the bottom octave(s).

The Moon amps are beautiful.

I have made arrangements to go back and listen to the same speakers with the Classe set up, although I really wouldn't mind having a gander at the Cary amps, the sales dude was playing them through the S2s and I liked that combo also.

[Geoffcin]

However, I would be looking at a sub for sure to hammer out the bottom octave(s).

I hate to tout my own system, but I came to the same conclusions you did. I've heard some speakers that were frightfully more expensive than mine, but with my two subs engaged there's nary a system that can match it for both power & detail.

[Florian]

Yes the 3.6 Maggies are very good :-) If you want more basspower you can buy two subwoofers or buy a 20.1 which plays quite low but not really low. Without wanting to sound like a broken record, if you want more detail, more air and more bass power look for a used Apogee and rebuild it. For 12K you might be able to buy a new Apogee from Perigee. (www.perigee.com.au)

Good luck

[the hand of boredom]

I hate to tout my own system, but I came to the same conclusions you did. I've heard some speakers that were frightfully more expensive than mine, but with my two subs engaged there's nary a system that can match it for both power & detail.

G,

I once had two subs, Servo 15s in my basement system. I'll tell you now that I had the hardest time trying to get the absolute best out of them. The problem was most likely positioning (the 15s are massive) and the subs couldn't just be placed 'where they sound best' they had to be along the wall and flanking the front end.

Two subs for my music system never crossed my mind when doing the research, primarily for the lack of results achieved the first time around. However, knowing that there are small enclosure subs around, this might be an option. I know for sure that I would have more options in terms of placement.

Just for the sake of doing so... if I were to purchase two subs then what would be the bests way to configure the connections? Just run the subs from a pair of pre-outs and set the x-over accordingly? This would change my speaker search wouldn't it? I would now be looking for a stellar monitor or a smaller floorstander. From listening experience I think the 3.6R would still fit the bill as it lower end wasn't truly 'authoritative'.

Florian, any new system ideas that now contain subs and possibly an active crossover?

Thanks again, guys.

THOB

[Geoffcin]

G,

I once had two subs, Servo 15s in my basement system. I'll tell you now that I had the hardest time trying to get the absolute best out of them. The problem was most likely positioning (the 15s are massive) and the subs couldn't just be placed 'where they sound best' they had to be along the wall and flanking the front end.

Two subs for my music system never crossed my mind when doing the research, primarily for the lack of results achieved the first time around. However, knowing that there are small enclosure subs around, this might be an option. I know for sure that I would have more options in terms of placement.

Just for the sake of doing so... if I were to purchase two subs then what would be the bests way to configure the connections? Just run the subs from a pair of pre-outs and set the x-over accordingly? This would change my speaker search wouldn't it? I would now be looking for a stellar monitor or a smaller floorstander. From listening experience I think the 3.6R would still fit the bill as it lower end wasn't truly 'authoritative'.

Florian, any new system ideas that now contain subs and possibly an active crossover?

Thanks again, guys.

THOB

The whole idea of two subs is that your going to use HALF the output from each. This makes for a very transparent sound. I run my mains full range, and subs crossed over @ 40hz. My preamp has dual outputs so I send the full signal to the subs, and use their own internal crossovers.

[the hand of boredom]

Hey Everyone,

I hope you are all enjoying the music.

I need to start searching for a speaker/amp/sub combination for my next system. I already have the pre, cd, and all cables.

I will have $12K, which is repayment from my best friend for several favours over the years. I don't need to spend all of it, but will be looking for a subtantial combination.

I listen all sorts of music, from Pizarrelli and Krall, to Snoop and Dr. Dre, to Rachmaninov.

I have listened to and really like the Marting Logan's Aeon and Ascent, and KEF's Reference 201. For amps, I have always liked Bryston, but then found Musical Fidelity to be smoother (with less 'grip' on the bottom end), and McIntosh to be more lush. What I would like are some other models to search for. What is comptetive at this price point?

Thanks for you help.

THOB

This evening I was at the dealer again to listen to the Magnepan 3.6R mated with the Moon W5, a combination that is quite nice playing with the new Moon CD player. Just for kicks I swapped in the Martin Logan Aeon and to sum up the comparison best....

There is no comparion.

The Aeon sounded dead. I asked him if everything was connected properly, which it was. I suddenly find myself turned off my the Aeon, where I adored it prior.

I could not believe how 'true' the 3.6R were. Those cymbals.... damn. I have always thought of these speakers to have a regressed presentation, one that comes from behind the speakers. The way they were set up, the presentation was definitely wonderful, and took up the entire area from the back wall to about two feet in front of me.

I was told that in 'the back room' he had a Vienna Strauss with and all McIntosh system, driven with an MC252. That system sounded very natural, but not as impressive as the above system. So I asked if I could come back in a while and listen to the 3.6R with the MC252. I that would take everything to a whole new level.

[Florian]

Are you in the US or Canada? I will call you tonight!

[the hand of boredom]

Are you in the US or Canada? I will call you tonight!

Won't be home tonight,but you can call tomorrow during the day.


THOB

[thepogue]

I'd also try swapping out others in the same price bracket.....what was the price difference between the two speakers? I think the ML's sell for around 2500 and the 3.6's are closer to 4K...is that correct?

Happy listening!! Pogue

This evening I was at the dealer again to listen to the Magnepan 3.6R mated with the Moon W5, a combination that is quite nice playing with the new Moon CD player. Just for kicks I swapped in the Martin Logan Aeon and to sum up the comparison best....

There is no comparion.

The Aeon sounded dead. I asked him if everything was connected properly, which it was. I suddenly find myself turned off my the Aeon, where I adored it prior.

I could not believe how 'true' the 3.6R were. Those cymbals.... damn. I have always thought of these speakers to have a regressed presentation, one that comes from behind the speakers. The way they were set up, the presentation was definitely wonderful, and took up the entire area from the back wall to about two feet in front of me.

I was told that in 'the back room' he had a Vienna Strauss with and all McIntosh system, driven with an MC252. That system sounded very natural, but not as impressive as the above system. So I asked if I could come back in a while and listen to the 3.6R with the MC252. I that would take everything to a whole new level.

[the hand of boredom]

I'd also try swapping out others in the same price bracket.....what was the price difference between the two speakers? I think the ML's sell for around 2500 and the 3.6's are closer to 4K...is that correct?

Happy listening!! Pogue

Pogue,

The retail prices in CDN are $5K for the Aeon and $6K for the 3.6R. That particular dealer also has Paradigm's Signature line, Vienna Acoustics (which are absolutley beautiful), and B&Ws at the price point.

Another dealer has JM Labs Prestige and KEF Ref 201s (I heard these a while ago with Musical Fidelity.... oooooooh wee!), and the Monitor Audio GR60 at the price point; $4800, $6100, and $5800 respectively.

This will sound cliche because you hear this alot from people, but I was truly 'blown away' by the 3.6... simply lifelike.

THOB