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Why do you WANT a subwoofer?
Cheers
Flo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Ramble on if you like.
I guess if he is spending $70k on an amp then he must have enough "disposable income" not to worry about another $5k. "Get me the right d.m capasitor!"
Sounds like a nice day. Bus 2 hours, drink coffee, listen to hi-end systems, lunch, talk them into bringing more in, maybe spend a little, maybe not, more coffee, rest stop, and then bus back. Cool way to spend a Saturday.
I could take the train to NYC. Only about an hour. White Plains has a few hi-end places also. Only about 45 minute drive. Po-town has a couple of small shops. Even closer at 30 minutes. Goshen too, about the same at 35 mins. The wife always makes other plans for us though. Cousin this, uncle that, women! Can't live with them, can't shoot them.
I can get to dealers who are closer but they are not as truthful in their views or carry gear that holds much interest. The dealer needed the money up front because it could eat profit considerably if the dolalr shifted.
The best thing about listening is that you learn fast that price, looks and shmancy designs are not always or even often on the same page with quality music reproduction. It is not necessarily what Soundhounds carries now that is of much interest but what they used to carry and now do not and what the people working there after hearing every big name thing and gadget over the last 30 years - this is what holds more interest. There are many regulars that drop by and listen once a week or more - why pay when you can listen for free? Like they say they have lots of stuff they carry that sells and keeps food on the table and then they carry stuff that is worth owning which they themselves would and do buy for their own enjoyment. They usually bring stuff in for several weeks and months trial to see if sounds any good and run it by several audiophiles to get an opinion. One really famous hot selling sexy looking rave reviewed turntable line they brought in - bought several of them. It was so bad against their two top turntable lines that they had the turntable rep come all the way to BC and listen to his turntable versus the other ones they already carry and try to get him to fix it or make it better.
Despite the fact that this sexy looking turntable maker who is getting virtually all of the rave review press in the Brit mags etc they shipped the ones they did not open back cut the price of the demo in half and got rid of it. I said "but you carry speakers you don't love and they sell" the frank reply went along the lines that the vast majority of speaker buyers buy from the magazines and spend less than 15 minutes listening so they're pre-sold -- we're a big turntable dealer and most of the vinyl clientele spend a lot of time listening before buying and this "piece of crap" may sell to the new breed (read young and inexperienced) vinyl buyer but likely not fool their customers and I don't want the hassle of the returns I'm going to get. With their A line they never get a return unless it is to upgrade to that companies higher models -- they stopped carrying one Canadian sexy looking speaker line because they sold so badly were pretty pricey and the A line improved their finishes which put the nail in the coffin of the Canadian line (the Canadian line is now sold at a big box chain called A&B Sound - so it worked out I suppose for everyone involved - which is good.
The dealer is also quite the repair shop -- they can design, repair and build turntables SS amplifiers tube amps, turntables, speakers etc. They had a quad panel in for repair - a dog peed on the panel it arked and blew both speakers - small fire. The dog was not electrocuted or executed by the owners - lucky dog. The insurance policy gave them enough to buy new Quads -- nice insurance policy.
Dealers are fun to learn a little of the ins and outs of the business for when possibly I become a dealer -- I am still hoping to go to this year's CES and start to finding stuff that I would actually want to listen to day in and day out with all music genres and any disc.
Another ramble for you as you said you didn;t mind :D
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Subwoofer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
Why do you WANT a subwoofer?
Cheers
Flo
Yes, I find that it is essential for the music I listen to. I had at one point owned 2 Servo 15s, one now belongs to my friend, the other was sold due to lack of space when I moved into his house.
What do you have in mind?
Took a trip to audiogon.com, had a gander at the used market. Would some used Levinsons be worth while. I have seen nothing but raves about their products, and if the units they have in the Lexus vehicles is any indication about their home equipment's quality, then I'll pay serious attention to Levinson.
THOB
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what was the fancy-schmacy TT your talkin about?
If you don't want to "dog" them here PM me if you could, I'd like to know (but I got a good idea). BTW you know I've ribbed you wayyyy longer than most here...but spending time at the shop is the best education you can get. Really has nothing at all to do with what you own or what you can afford. You see what to do, and more importantly what NOT to do...without burning your own $$ in the process. And so many are on the "up-to-the-top of the audio mountain" road that the streets (market) is flooded with great gear at even greater prices! We've got a local heavy hitter that just dumped 150K on a HT system (it's only 80% complete). Believe you me...we (the shop regulars) laugh at as many,if not more, "high dollar" spenders as we do those coming in with a very limited budget....in fact the biggest laugh is those with more money than brains. Diminishing returns is alive and well on earth...but some just don't see it...and that me friend, is the biggest joke of all! Cheers!
Peace-out, Pogue
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
I can get to dealers who are closer but they are not as truthful in their views or carry gear that holds much interest. The dealer needed the money up front because it could eat profit considerably if the dolalr shifted.
The best thing about listening is that you learn fast that price, looks and shmancy designs are not always or even often on the same page with quality music reproduction. It is not necessarily what Soundhounds carries now that is of much interest but what they used to carry and now do not and what the people working there after hearing every big name thing and gadget over the last 30 years - this is what holds more interest. There are many regulars that drop by and listen once a week or more - why pay when you can listen for free? Like they say they have lots of stuff they carry that sells and keeps food on the table and then they carry stuff that is worth owning which they themselves would and do buy for their own enjoyment. They usually bring stuff in for several weeks and months trial to see if sounds any good and run it by several audiophiles to get an opinion. One really famous hot selling sexy looking rave reviewed turntable line they brought in - bought several of them. It was so bad against their two top turntable lines that they had the turntable rep come all the way to BC and listen to his turntable versus the other ones they already carry and try to get him to fix it or make it better.
Despite the fact that this sexy looking turntable maker who is getting virtually all of the rave review press in the Brit mags etc they shipped the ones they did not open back cut the price of the demo in half and got rid of it. I said "but you carry speakers you don't love and they sell" the frank reply went along the lines that the vast majority of speaker buyers buy from the magazines and spend less than 15 minutes listening so they're pre-sold -- we're a big turntable dealer and most of the vinyl clientele spend a lot of time listening before buying and this "piece of crap" may sell to the new breed (read young and inexperienced) vinyl buyer but likely not fool their customers and I don't want the hassle of the returns I'm going to get. With their A line they never get a return unless it is to upgrade to that companies higher models -- they stopped carrying one Canadian sexy looking speaker line because they sold so badly were pretty pricey and the A line improved their finishes which put the nail in the coffin of the Canadian line (the Canadian line is now sold at a big box chain called A&B Sound - so it worked out I suppose for everyone involved - which is good.
The dealer is also quite the repair shop -- they can design, repair and build turntables SS amplifiers tube amps, turntables, speakers etc. They had a quad panel in for repair - a dog peed on the panel it arked and blew both speakers - small fire. The dog was not electrocuted or executed by the owners - lucky dog. The insurance policy gave them enough to buy new Quads -- nice insurance policy.
Dealers are fun to learn a little of the ins and outs of the business for when possibly I become a dealer -- I am still hoping to go to this year's CES and start to finding stuff that I would actually want to listen to day in and day out with all music genres and any disc.
Another ramble for you as you said you didn;t mind :D
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Quote:
Diminishing returns is alive and well on earth.
While that is true, there are many systems in the incredibly expensive realms that redefine whats possible and are cleary superior to others.
There are enough speakers that will give you real bass and fullrange response and need no subwoofer. One is the Synthesis 1, Fullrange Apogees, Genesis V, TDL and others. The problem is that you cant just take any two amps and connect it to a speaker to make it sound good. Equipment matching is very important.
-Flo
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and there is also systems that redefine...
incredibly expensive. At least 3 of the "regulars" (at the shop I hang out at) have systems in excess of 100K....none of which sound 10 X's better than a well put together 10K system...better, yes indeed.....but nowhere near ten fold. So I just lurk...wait for the next upgrade...and BLAM...grab last years "best of".
Pogue
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
While that is true, there are many systems in the incredibly expensive realms that redefine whats possible and are cleary superior to others.
-Flo
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Does your 10K system sound better then the 1000$ B&W?
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1 Attachment(s)
my system sounds the best...hands down!!
but that's only because it's in MY house and it's the only one my remote works with...(guys just won't let me take there stuff for a test ride ;)
now to answer your question....
For openers I'll be very frank...I don't like put a dollar sign anywhere in the same subject line when I'm talking about my equipment (unless I'm talking about how much I've saved!) for a couple reasons. First I always try to buy used so the "listed" new price isn't relative. Second it's my view that diminishing returns kicks in (for me) sooner rather than later (different for each component, higher for speakers less for amps IMO) so I don't automatically correlate dollars spent with sound quality. I correlate dollars spent with disposable income. Third to me it's a bit tacky. When someone owns a classic piece, be it a car, watch, stereo ,what have you...the item should speak for itself. If I need to hang a pricetag on it to draw attention to it....I probably got the wrong piece. My favorite example of this is I was at 7-11 (store) in my '70 Impala (I'll try to attach a picture) and this guy came out of the store after buying some smokes and as he's firing one up he goggling over my car...I'm 100% sure he doesn't even see me sitting in it...then he takes a hit of his smoke and realizes I'm sitting in it and he kinda blinks outta it and says "nice ride" I nod...then he get in his brandy-spanking' new top-o-the line Benz (80ish K over here) and heads down the road...I paid 3200 for the Impala...yea...nice ride he says!...gotta love it!
Sorry I'm drifting anyway back to the question.
does my system sound better than a $1000 B&W...I would hope so as a grand doesn't buy much (not from B&W) but as stated my view is that at sub 5K price points well spent money can be easily heard but 5K and beyond..well...we're right back to diminishing returns. Once more point if it's not obvious by now...I'm really really into high-end high priced gear...I'm just not into spending my money to get it...I'm basically a audio vulture, living on left-overs. Please pass the salt!
Peace-out, Pogue
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Magnepan and Moon
Quote:
Originally Posted by the hand of boredom
Hey Everyone,
I hope you are all enjoying the music.
I need to start searching for a speaker/amp/sub combination for my next system. I already have the pre, cd, and all cables.
I will have $12K, which is repayment from my best friend for several favours over the years. I don't need to spend all of it, but will be looking for a subtantial combination.
I listen all sorts of music, from Pizarrelli and Krall, to Snoop and Dr. Dre, to Rachmaninov.
I have listened to and really like the Marting Logan's Aeon and Ascent, and KEF's Reference 201. For amps, I have always liked Bryston, but then found Musical Fidelity to be smoother (with less 'grip' on the bottom end), and McIntosh to be more lush. What I would like are some other models to search for. What is comptetive at this price point?
Thanks for you help.
THOB
Made a trip to a local dealer today along with the repetoire of music. The listening was closed off to me for an hour and I had a chance to hear the Magnepan 3.6R bi-amped with a pair of Moon W8 amps.
Needless to say, I liked the system very much. Definitely many strengths: the speakers do not have a very large footprint, and are very unique looking. The detail is abundant with a very smooth and open soundstage. The highs very natural and as clean as any speaker I have ever heard. Midrange and especially vocals were so fluid and effortless, the little breaths between verses could be heard as well as the licking of some lips. The bottom end was clean; much detail in the plucking of the bass guitar. However, I would be looking at a sub for sure to hammer out the bottom octave(s).
The Moon amps are beautiful.
I have made arrangements to go back and listen to the same speakers with the Classe set up, although I really wouldn't mind having a gander at the Cary amps, the sales dude was playing them through the S2s and I liked that combo also.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the hand of boredom
However, I would be looking at a sub for sure to hammer out the bottom octave(s).
I hate to tout my own system, but I came to the same conclusions you did. I've heard some speakers that were frightfully more expensive than mine, but with my two subs engaged there's nary a system that can match it for both power & detail.
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Yes the 3.6 Maggies are very good :-) If you want more basspower you can buy two subwoofers or buy a 20.1 which plays quite low but not really low. Without wanting to sound like a broken record, if you want more detail, more air and more bass power look for a used Apogee and rebuild it. For 12K you might be able to buy a new Apogee from Perigee. (www.perigee.com.au)
Good luck
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The notion of two subs...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffcin
I hate to tout my own system, but I came to the same conclusions you did. I've heard some speakers that were frightfully more expensive than mine, but with my two subs engaged there's nary a system that can match it for both power & detail.
G,
I once had two subs, Servo 15s in my basement system. I'll tell you now that I had the hardest time trying to get the absolute best out of them. The problem was most likely positioning (the 15s are massive) and the subs couldn't just be placed 'where they sound best' they had to be along the wall and flanking the front end.
Two subs for my music system never crossed my mind when doing the research, primarily for the lack of results achieved the first time around. However, knowing that there are small enclosure subs around, this might be an option. I know for sure that I would have more options in terms of placement.
Just for the sake of doing so... if I were to purchase two subs then what would be the bests way to configure the connections? Just run the subs from a pair of pre-outs and set the x-over accordingly? This would change my speaker search wouldn't it? I would now be looking for a stellar monitor or a smaller floorstander. From listening experience I think the 3.6R would still fit the bill as it lower end wasn't truly 'authoritative'.
Florian, any new system ideas that now contain subs and possibly an active crossover?
Thanks again, guys.
THOB
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Two subs are a good bet
Quote:
Originally Posted by the hand of boredom
G,
I once had two subs, Servo 15s in my basement system. I'll tell you now that I had the hardest time trying to get the absolute best out of them. The problem was most likely positioning (the 15s are massive) and the subs couldn't just be placed 'where they sound best' they had to be along the wall and flanking the front end.
Two subs for my music system never crossed my mind when doing the research, primarily for the lack of results achieved the first time around. However, knowing that there are small enclosure subs around, this might be an option. I know for sure that I would have more options in terms of placement.
Just for the sake of doing so... if I were to purchase two subs then what would be the bests way to configure the connections? Just run the subs from a pair of pre-outs and set the x-over accordingly? This would change my speaker search wouldn't it? I would now be looking for a stellar monitor or a smaller floorstander. From listening experience I think the 3.6R would still fit the bill as it lower end wasn't truly 'authoritative'.
Florian, any new system ideas that now contain subs and possibly an active crossover?
Thanks again, guys.
THOB
The whole idea of two subs is that your going to use HALF the output from each. This makes for a very transparent sound. I run my mains full range, and subs crossed over @ 40hz. My preamp has dual outputs so I send the full signal to the subs, and use their own internal crossovers.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the hand of boredom
Hey Everyone,
I hope you are all enjoying the music.
I need to start searching for a speaker/amp/sub combination for my next system. I already have the pre, cd, and all cables.
I will have $12K, which is repayment from my best friend for several favours over the years. I don't need to spend all of it, but will be looking for a subtantial combination.
I listen all sorts of music, from Pizarrelli and Krall, to Snoop and Dr. Dre, to Rachmaninov.
I have listened to and really like the Marting Logan's Aeon and Ascent, and KEF's Reference 201. For amps, I have always liked Bryston, but then found Musical Fidelity to be smoother (with less 'grip' on the bottom end), and McIntosh to be more lush. What I would like are some other models to search for. What is comptetive at this price point?
Thanks for you help.
THOB
This evening I was at the dealer again to listen to the Magnepan 3.6R mated with the Moon W5, a combination that is quite nice playing with the new Moon CD player. Just for kicks I swapped in the Martin Logan Aeon and to sum up the comparison best....
There is no comparion.
The Aeon sounded dead. I asked him if everything was connected properly, which it was. I suddenly find myself turned off my the Aeon, where I adored it prior.
I could not believe how 'true' the 3.6R were. Those cymbals.... damn. I have always thought of these speakers to have a regressed presentation, one that comes from behind the speakers. The way they were set up, the presentation was definitely wonderful, and took up the entire area from the back wall to about two feet in front of me.
I was told that in 'the back room' he had a Vienna Strauss with and all McIntosh system, driven with an MC252. That system sounded very natural, but not as impressive as the above system. So I asked if I could come back in a while and listen to the 3.6R with the MC252. I that would take everything to a whole new level.
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Are you in the US or Canada? I will call you tonight!
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thats the ONLY way to find out whats what..
I'd also try swapping out others in the same price bracket.....what was the price difference between the two speakers? I think the ML's sell for around 2500 and the 3.6's are closer to 4K...is that correct?
Happy listening!! Pogue
Quote:
Originally Posted by the hand of boredom
This evening I was at the dealer again to listen to the Magnepan 3.6R mated with the Moon W5, a combination that is quite nice playing with the new Moon CD player. Just for kicks I swapped in the Martin Logan Aeon and to sum up the comparison best....
There is no comparion.
The Aeon sounded dead. I asked him if everything was connected properly, which it was. I suddenly find myself turned off my the Aeon, where I adored it prior.
I could not believe how 'true' the 3.6R were. Those cymbals.... damn. I have always thought of these speakers to have a regressed presentation, one that comes from behind the speakers. The way they were set up, the presentation was definitely wonderful, and took up the entire area from the back wall to about two feet in front of me.
I was told that in 'the back room' he had a Vienna Strauss with and all McIntosh system, driven with an MC252. That system sounded very natural, but not as impressive as the above system. So I asked if I could come back in a while and listen to the 3.6R with the MC252. I that would take everything to a whole new level.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
Are you in the US or Canada? I will call you tonight!
Won't be home tonight,but you can call tomorrow during the day.
THOB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thepogue
I'd also try swapping out others in the same price bracket.....what was the price difference between the two speakers? I think the ML's sell for around 2500 and the 3.6's are closer to 4K...is that correct?
Happy listening!! Pogue
Pogue,
The retail prices in CDN are $5K for the Aeon and $6K for the 3.6R. That particular dealer also has Paradigm's Signature line, Vienna Acoustics (which are absolutley beautiful), and B&Ws at the price point.
Another dealer has JM Labs Prestige and KEF Ref 201s (I heard these a while ago with Musical Fidelity.... oooooooh wee!), and the Monitor Audio GR60 at the price point; $4800, $6100, and $5800 respectively.
This will sound cliche because you hear this alot from people, but I was truly 'blown away' by the 3.6... simply lifelike.
THOB
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Welcome to the boxless world. No box, light membranes, huge surface areas, fast repsonse times etc..Check out my DIVA pics for all ribbon goodness :-)
Are you in canada or the US,.....have to know that for the country code. I tried US 3 days ago but met a answering machine.
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sounds like you found a weiner!!!
I know the maggies are out-of-this-world! Glad to see your doing your homework...'memeber to enjoy the trip.
Pogue
Quote:
Originally Posted by the hand of boredom
Pogue,
The retail prices in CDN are $5K for the Aeon and $6K for the 3.6R. That particular dealer also has Paradigm's Signature line, Vienna Acoustics (which are absolutley beautiful), and B&Ws at the price point.
Another dealer has JM Labs Prestige and KEF Ref 201s (I heard these a while ago with Musical Fidelity.... oooooooh wee!), and the Monitor Audio GR60 at the price point; $4800, $6100, and $5800 respectively.
This will sound cliche because you hear this alot from people, but I was truly 'blown away' by the 3.6... simply lifelike.
THOB
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Hello hand O' boredom,
you've taken an awful lot of time so far...nice job :)
I'd also give Bruce Edgar a call and ask if he's got any full TiTan systems in your area for demo (Unless you want to take a tip to SoCal ;)). I know he's got a number of northern neighbors who own EdgarHorns...but I'm not sure of the specifics of each and their location.
have fun!
dan
bedgar@socalrrDOTcom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonefishin
Hello hand O' boredom,
you've taken an awful lot of time so far...nice job :)
I'd also give Bruce Edgar a call and ask if he's got any full TiTan systems in your area for demo (Unless you want to take a tip to SoCal ;)). I know he's got a number of northern neighbors who own EdgarHorns...but I'm not sure of the specifics of each and their location.
have fun!
dan
bedgar@socalrrDOTcom
Thanks for the tip, there, pickerel-king. I have never heard a horn speaker before... so I would definitely be interested in an audition because I might just be taken back. I'll tell you now that it will have to do something special.
I don't mind a DIY project either. That way I have more control to the finish (parts and wire selection).
Cheers.
THOB
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Subwoofer issues
Dealer gave me a great deal on the Seismic 10, $1200 CDN taxes in!!!!! Too sweet to pass up, so I bit.
As you may be aware, the Seismic is a downfiring woofer, with one passive woofer on each side.
I have the system set up in the basement which I know is a dreadful place for bass. Anyway, I have the sub placed in front of the TV and at the midpoint of the two mains (Monitor Audio B3), ran a set of sines through to find out in absolute disbelief that the response with the mains is flat (+/- 3 db; actual values of 68-72 db) from 30 hz all the way to 90 Hz with the gross exception of a 20 db null centred at 66 Hz:
61 Hz, 68 db
66 Hz, 50 db
70 Hz, 71 db
The room dimensions are 21 ft in length, the back half is 16 ft wide, and the front half is 21 ft wide with a bar at 16 ft (from the left wall).
The speakers are 28.5in from the front wall, the left tweeter is 31in from the left wall and the right tweeter is 96in from the left wall, the centre of the subwoofer is 63in from the left wall and 40in from the front wall.
The prime listening spot is 84in from the speakers (site of SPL readings), however if sitting on the couch, there is an apparent 'deeper' bass response. I'll sit here when listening to reggae or hip hop/rap and I can get disturbed at how deep this thing will play, but if sitting in the prime spot I don't feel or hear anything very deep. I'll sit in the prime spot for jazzier music and I'll be very satisfied at the taughtness, speed and punch.
By placement using any mathematical equations, can someone suggest where to move the sub to get rid of that null?
I will do sine readings for the main-only response and post as soon as I can.
Also, what should I place the sub on? How high off the ground should it be?
THOB
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