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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericl
sorry, but you guys know full well why i created the lab.. People were just trying to talk about what cable or receiver to buy and idiots like mtry are coming and saying "prove your claim that this sounds better than that" when this is a HOBBY, based on SUBJECTIVE experience.
Fair enough. And I can assure you for many of us the hobby relies heavily on science to explain the subjective experience. We also use it to cut through the BS.
It's a bit inconsistent when we'll use science against BOSE and everyone cheers, but if we use it against planar speakers or SET amps or cables we get flack.
In my experience, the science has been excellent at explaining why I like something or why I don't. I don't think you are forced to choose between one or the other.
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DBTer's were just beating everyone over the head with the words "prove it" and it was obnoxious and childish. and really, it wasn't even the cable/dbt debate, i honestly don't care either way about it. It was the fact that many of those pushing that line were obnoxious little children, and bullies to those just trying to have FUN with their HOBBY. If people could have carried on these discussions with a bit of CIVILITY we would not be in this position.
I don't miss some of the nut-bar bullies that were here, but that was a people problem, not a policy problem. As jneutron pointed out, diyaudio.com does quite well at allowing "both camps" to co-exist. The forums at Partsexpress.com are another excellent example. Nobody's subjective experience is criticized, and people remain friendly. That's the key - if someone starts acting up, the moderators do their job and send him packing. Seems to work.
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When I came in, everyone started crying about the rules and censorship, but all i really did was introduce some moderation (and contrary to claims that this forum is now "dead" it's getting more traffic now than in years). The little schoolyard bullies (who'd already been banned from many other sites) didn't rule the playground anymore, so they took their balls and went home.
Yeah, Skeptic was a loser, wasn't he?
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The Audio Lab was meant for more advanced and heated discussion. it's not a "ghetto", it's just a forum like the rest of them. I don't know why it's so horrible to carry on conversations there.
Not horrible, just terribly inconvenient - Eric, you've got the stats - what's the ratio of New Threads-to-Replies. I'll bet my membership here we get at least 2 replies for every one new thread on average - and I suspect it's much higher!!!! What more obvious example of the inconvenience of being required to post anything scientific in the Audio Lab could you need? It's counter-productive - well, that is, the rare time it seems to be enforced...
I was one person that played the wait and see game when you came here. To be very honest, not much has changed in practice, just in policy. Otherwise I'm sure I'd have been redirected to the AL 2000 times by now. :D
So that begs the question...why the policy then?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
So that begs the question...why the policy then?
we can change it.. I really didn't know it was still such a sore spot until this thread came up. Generally I don't read the cables OR audio lab forums at all, i find them terribly boring. You're right it is a people issue not a policy/discussion topic issue. People are much better now..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericl
Discussions where scientific stuff comes up is fine, the rules are really just guidelines, and I am not opposed to changing the rules.
I just don't want people beating newbies over the head with science whenever someone says: "what should i buy" or "i liked brand x better than y"
This was my understanding...that's cool...and I agree, newbies shouldn't be bombarded with "all receivers sound the same until proven differently under DBT" by 37 replies. But at the same time, what's the harm in allowing someone to say "listen for yourself, there are scientific studies that suggest XXXXXx....you decide"?
I could be wrong, but I always suspected we had a people problem before, not a subject matter problem. A few internet-tough guys have long since left the site and things seem to be running very well for the most part. I'm sure if the rule was changed and those people came back, Geoff, Sir T, E-Stat, or yourself would put those people in their place or just ban them outright. Problem solved. We have good moderators now - we didn't before.
It's really no different than sports - your policies don't have to pick favorite sides - just call it down the middle - if a post goes off -topic and a "sub-debate" is created, move the corresponding individuals to the Steel Cage. I trust the good judgement of our modertors here.
Like I said...for the most part this is a non-issue to me, and I'll admit a part of the reason I'm posting today is because this is the most exciting thread I've seen in days, but I think some good can come from it.
Thanks for chiming in Eric.
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Your not the ony one
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericl
we can change it.. I really didn't know it was still such a sore spot until this thread came up. Generally I don't read the cables OR audio lab forums at all, i find them terribly boring. You're right it is a people issue not a policy/discussion topic issue. People are much better now..
I didn't know it was a sore spot at all!
The original thread had veered way off bounds, going from "What Speaker Cable do you use" to two guys arguing about obscure scientific points that had rendered the thread meaningless to all but a few.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
Yeah, Skeptic was a loser, wasn't he?
After my first spat with skeptic, he proceeded to call and email every number and address he could find in my company and our parent company, and ***** and moan about me. He was threatening, begging for them to fire me. I had just started. Great guy he was.
Funny part is, before i came along they wanted to give the job to ToddB, who wanted to come in and wholesale ban all dbt along with half of the members on the site. He was bloodthirsty. He left in a huff because I wouldn't delete threads or ban members he didn't like.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
.- you can call it censorship if you want - IMO that's an abuse of the word - but it's a pain in the ass if nothing else..
I called it that simply because that is the only word I could think of to describe what I thought it was..duhh...:confused5:
I agree that is not a nice concept, but had no better descriptor that was less drastic. "Limiting subject matter" does have a better ring to it, although it takes longer to type, and the chances of me spelling it incorrectly is less..
You've been a pleasure, Kex..I have not been here much, so I forget.....are we supposed to be on the same side of the fence, or the opposite??
Bah, nevermind..it doesn't matter, does it..:cornut:
Cheers, John
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericl
we can change it.. I really didn't know it was still such a sore spot until this thread came up. Generally I don't read the cables OR audio lab forums at all, i find them terribly boring. You're right it is a people issue not a policy/discussion topic issue. People are much better now..
The policy hasn't really been a sore spot because the moderators have been really cool and letting things go - or in Sir T's case, taking as well as he gives. :D
I didn't really want to bring it up before now because things were running pretty well. So it's a bit funny when people say they can't say this or can't say that and complain about censorship - chances are if they just said it, they'd get away with it.
In the case of FLZapped asking for a source - he didn't seem too harsh. If he was badmouthing another person, he should be reprimanded for his tone, not his asking for scientific evidence.
People like E-Stat, jneutron, Hifi Tommy, Bernd, Geoffcin, and even Florian are more than capable of defending the subjective side with science - I do what I can. I don't think anyone will be bullied. If they are, there's enough vocal regulars now that they shouldn't get far.
I dunno, if people can remain respectful I think differences of opinion will be tolerated. There's those of us with the "I'm better than you" attitude that escalate some discussions to levels of intensity that might not be desireable, but we'll always have that. If everyone was always nice, we wouldn't need moderators.
:D
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ToddB, now there's a name from the past.
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Originally Posted by ericl
After my first spat with skeptic, he proceeded to call and email every number and address he could find in my company and our parent company, and ***** and moan about me. He was threatening, begging for them to fire me. I had just started. Great guy he was.
Funny part is, before i came along they wanted to give the job to ToddB, who wanted to come in and wholesale ban all dbt along with half of the members on the site. He was bloodthirsty. He left in a huff because I wouldn't delete threads or ban members he didn't like.
This place would have been a wasteland if he would have been given reign. How lucky we are we got you instead!
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Originally Posted by jneutron
You've been a pleasure, Kex..I have not been here much, so I forget.....are we supposed to be on the same side of the fence, or the opposite??
Bah, nevermind..it doesn't matter, does it..:cornut:
Well, the DIY speaker buildin' hobbyist in me just wants to learn enuff' of that fangled science stuff to understand why my ears like certain things and why they don't.
I really believe the metrics don't lie. I do believe we use the wrong metrics (or interpret them poorly) sometimes, but that science can explain it all.
I still don't know if I hear differences in cables. I can't afford the ones that I think I do hear differences with :D
I definitely hear a difference in resistors and capacitors, though, so I think there's still much more work to be done in the great cable debate - if people would just put their emotions aside and let people like you work, we might get somewhere.
Cheers!
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[quote=ericl]Discussions where scientific stuff comes up is fine, the rules are really just guidelines, and I am not opposed to changing the rules. [quote]
That is all I can ask for.
That is why I posted in response to Geoffcin's origional post towards FLzapped. I wanted to say my piece regarding what I consider to be the inadequacy of the current policy, and discussion of the possibility of changing it to what I believe to be better.
While remaining vigilant against the disruptors, of course.
Cheers, John
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Having been a forum moderator for years on a different genre site I am generally supportive and sympathetic towards the mods.
Also after reading some of these posts I am quite glad to no longer have to deal with it. What you are reading here is but the merest tip of the iceberg that mods have to deal with.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiWinters
Having been a forum moderator for years on a different genre site I am generally supportive and sympathetic towards the mods.
Also after reading some of these posts I am quite glad to no longer have to deal with it. What you are reading here is but the merest tip of the iceberg that mods have to deal with.
No kidding - while this is only an internet forum, and we've all got more important things to worry about, we should thank these guys for doing the job they do more often. It does make the experience a bit better, and I'm sure Geoff and the guys have much more interesting things they could be doing with their time.
I hope they do get some sort of satisfaction out of it - must be a pretty thankless job most of the time.
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It's not so bad
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Originally Posted by kexodusc
No kidding - while this is only an internet forum, and we've all got more important things to worry about, we should thank these guys for doing the job they do more often. It does make the experience a bit better, and I'm sure Geoff and the guys have much more interesting things they could be doing with their time.
I hope they do get some sort of satisfaction out of it - must be a pretty thankless job most of the time.
I'm involved with all of my hobbies to a greater degree than you would say the average person is. For me they are more enjoyable that way. I'm sure you know what I mean.
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The problem with that illustration
The issue at hand is that of the purpose of the typical Objectivist reply post. The example given by kexodusc concerned a simple correction of information [regardless of the poster's audio philosopy]. The purpose wasn't to correct THEM but the info provided. The example by jneutron instead uses that opportunity not so much to correct the info but refute the philosophy of the individual [or school of]. Their purpose isn't to provide data for any individuals asking [or not asking], their primary purpose is to condemn an opposing POV. That is the reason the "Audio Lab" was established.
I joined Audio Review in the Fall of '97 and argued with the vocal Objectivists [mtrycrafts and eyespy, etc...] back then this very point. That rarely will you find them initiating posts to share information with anyone, instead they choose to hi-jack threads to satisfy their agenda. That was my principal issue with them: their dogmatic ideology and the [poor] manner they employed. And that rarely will you find fellow Objectivists conversing with themselves [unless to gang up on others or congratulate themselves] instead they only post to refute so-called "claims". And I predicted back then that if they ever established a technical forum for this type of discussion that it would be a wasteland because they don't want an open forum to share ideas with like-minded individuals. No, they want to use every other open forum to confront and bash those that dare disagree with them. All in the name of "public service". That is the difference.
And the Audio Lab has only supported my case. They refuse willingly to go there to share info, because that is not their will. They instead continue [as always] to seek out people with an opposing opinion. This aggressive and confrontational attitude is why they've been sent to what amounts to an adult "time out". OTOH, show examples of where Subjectivists exhibit like behavior toward Objectivists. Seek them out to combat their POV. They have no interest in this, they only wish to share information with like-minded enthusiasts. Not spend their lives supporting their opinions. If everyone would "play nice" there wouldn't be a need to seperate them. That it would be possible to learn from one another but that doesn't seem likely here. So, now don't complain about the situation you find yourselves. You would think that most groups would embrace a forum to discuss what they believe in. The fact that the Objectivists don't even support "their" forum only highlights the transparency of their motives.
MikE
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You say tomato
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Originally Posted by Mwalsdor_cscc_edu
OTOH, show examples of where Subjectivists exhibit like behavior toward Objectivists. Seek them out to combat their POV. They have no interest in this, they only wish to share information with like-minded enthusiasts. Not spend their lives supporting their opinions. If everyone would "play nice" there wouldn't be a need to seperate them. That it would be possible to learn from one another but that doesn't seem likely here. So, now don't complain about the situation you find yourselves. You would think that most groups would embrace a forum to discuss what they believe in. The fact that the Objectivists don't even support "their" forum only highlights the transparency of their motives.
MikE
One doesn't have to look very far or very hard to find the examples of subjectivist behavior you're looking for..
In fact, I find them even more annoying than the objectivists. There's a huge group of subjectivists who religiously preach the virtues of whatever gear they like - RGA and Audio Note, Florian and Apogee, the tired Yamaha/Denon battles, the Paradigm camp, the list goes on and on. If you want examples, just open your eyes. It's a broken record. There's a few members here that I laugh at when I see they've replied to a post - I can predict without fail what they'll say.
When a subjectivist takes every opportunity he can to promote his favorite gear, it's just sharing opinion, an objectivist promotes his belief and you condemn him.
While I agree, the Mtrycrafts of the world seem to exist for the sole purpose of replying to threads and starting debate on the same old topic, there are those who can exist in both camps at the same time. I still believe we're better off dealing with the people issues, and allowing all points of view to be made, considered, and discussed.
If a new mtrycraft emerges, it'll be obvious really quick, and should be easy to deal with. Besides, did anyone really pay much attention to him anyway?
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I've always wondered that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwalsdor_cscc_edu
And the Audio Lab has only supported my case. They refuse willingly to go there to share info, because that is not their will. They instead continue [as always] to seek out people with an opposing opinion. This aggressive and confrontational attitude is why they've been sent to what amounts to an adult "time out". OTOH, show examples of where Subjectivists exhibit like behavior toward Objectivists. Seek them out to combat their POV. They have no interest in this, they only wish to share information with like-minded enthusiasts. Not spend their lives supporting their opinions. If everyone would "play nice" there wouldn't be a need to seperate them. That it would be possible to learn from one another but that doesn't seem likely here. So, now don't complain about the situation you find yourselves. You would think that most groups would embrace a forum to discuss what they believe in. The fact that the Objectivists don't even support "their" forum only highlights the transparency of their motives.
MikE
Why, when people like are given a forum to debate the issues that they hold so dear, do they refuse to the point of death (or literary castration as JNeutron has said) ever using it! It seems that the issues are not so dear to them at all. It's the ability to hammer down the opposition, and twist the forums for their own purposes that is the REAL driving force for them. Confrontation is it's own reward for people of this mindset.
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Most of us are in the middle somewhere
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Originally Posted by kexodusc
One doesn't have to look very far or very hard to find the examples of subjectivist behavior you're looking for..
In fact, I find them even more annoying than the objectivists. There's a huge group of subjectivists who religiously preach the virtues of whatever gear they like - RGA and Audio Note, Florian and Apogee, the tired Yamaha/Denon battles, the Paradigm camp, the list goes on and on. If you want examples, just open your eyes. It's a broken record. There's a few members here that I laugh at when I see they've replied to a post - I can predict without fail what they'll say.
When a subjectivist takes every opportunity he can to promote his favorite gear, it's just sharing opinion, an objectivist promotes his belief and you condemn him.
While I agree, the Mtrycrafts of the world seem to exist for the sole purpose of replying to threads and starting debate on the same old topic, there are those who can exist in both camps at the same time. I still believe we're better off dealing with the people issues, and allowing all points of view to be made, considered, and discussed.
If a new mtrycraft emerges, it'll be obvious really quick, and should be easy to deal with. Besides, did anyone really pay much attention to him anyway?
We all have our favorite gear, and I've been guilty of recommending it more often than not.
Still, even I sometimes cringe when I see RGA posting (king of the subjectivists) , but what are you going to do? It's obviously just his OPINION, and as such is nothing refutable. But, when someone starts attacking others opinions claiming that he OWNS the truth (objectivists) then we have a problem.
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Originally Posted by Geoffcin
Why, when people like are given a forum to debate the issues that they hold so dear, do they refuse to the point of death (or literary castration as JNeutron has said) ever using it! It seems that the issues are not so dear to them at all. It's the ability to hammer down the opposition, and twist the forums for their own purposes that is the REAL driving force for them. Confrontation is it's own reward for people of this mindset.
That is true for a lot of people. We call these people trolls. They exist in many forms. Some bring up DBT's religiously, some take every opportunity to bash any speaker design that doesn't share the virtues of the speakers they own.
As I mentioned earlier, there are times when their points of view are better kept in the context of the subjects of other forums. I always understood the job of the moderators was to play referee and use their judgement to determine who was trolling and who was just contributing alternative points of view.
Punish the offenders, not, don't restrict the bystanders.
There are trolls on every forum. Don't think that will ever change.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffcin
But, when someone starts attacking others opinions claiming that he OWNS the truth (objectivists) then we have a problem.
Half the time I don't even disagree with their opinion of what the truth is...just the way go about presenting their beliefs. Both subjectivists and objectivists are guilty of that. The world needs internet-etiquette classes. I really don't find the claim "all amps sound the same" any worse than "all japanese amps sound analytical (which means bad)".
I get a kick out of the objectivists who butcher the science and keep going as though they know what they're talking about. Or the subjectivists, who will dismiss indisputable fact because they don't understand or just don't like being wrong.
When I do get involved in those arguments, I usually like to join the losing side of the debate - At least that keeps it interesting.
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I'm going to agree with you
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Originally Posted by kexodusc
Half the time I don't even disagree with their opinion of what the truth is...just the way go about presenting their beliefs. Both subjectivists and objectivists are guilty of that. The world needs internet-etiquette classes. I really don't find the claim "all amps sound the same" any worse than "all japanese amps sound analytical (which means bad)".
I get a kick out of the objectivists who butcher the science and keep going as though they know what they're talking about. Or the subjectivists, who will dismiss indisputable fact because they don't understand or just don't like being wrong.
When I do get involved in those arguments, I usually like to join the losing side of the debate - At least that keeps it interesting.
This is the most interesting thread in a while!
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You guys seem to get really stressed about this. I am amazed by that, really!
This is meant in a positive way and i understand some of your points better now.
Cheers
Flo
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"all japanese amps sound analytical (which means bad)"
I personally dont consider this bad. Ok, its not my kinda sound but i dont think it is entirely bad.
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This is coming from a guy;
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Originally Posted by Florian
You guys seem to get really stressed about this. I am amazed by that, really!
This is meant in a positive way and i understand some of your points better now.
Cheers
Flo
I personally dont consider this bad. Ok, its not my kinda sound but i dont think it is entirely bad.
Who never stresses out over anything. :crazy:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffcin
Who never stresses out over anything. :crazy:
Not much anymore, i get better. I ignore RGA, SH and others and it works well. I have enough friends and think alikes on here to be fine.
:)
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One doesn't have to look very far or very hard to find the examples of subjectivist behavior you're looking for... In fact, I find them even more annoying than the objectivists. There's a huge group of subjectivists who religiously preach the virtues of whatever gear they like - RGA and Audio Note, Florian and Apogee, the tired Yamaha/Denon battles, the Paradigm camp, the list goes on and on. If you want examples, just open your eyes. It's a broken record. There's a few members here that I laugh at when I see they've replied to a post - I can predict without fail what they'll say.
When a subjectivist takes every opportunity he can to promote his favorite gear, it's just sharing opinion, an objectivist promotes his belief and you condemn him.
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I don't spend enough time on this forum to comment on the protocol of the individuals you've singled out. My observation dosen't concern the current state of affairs on this forum, or any one individual, but what I've observed over the years on this and other forums. I stand by what I said. I believe it is very infrequent you'll find a Subjectivist posting in a technical forum the merits of their POV and at the same time where do you find Objectivists posting? In the Audio Lab or among themselves? No, you'll find them where you've always found them. Searching out and refuting the Subjectivists. The difference is that one group only wishes to speak amongst themselves and the other only wishes to combat the other. That was the behavior I was speaking about. The example you sight has to do with product preference. The example I sight concerns their philosophy and the manner in which they advertise. I agree that if someone were to continually tout their brand preference [or doctrine] as the one and only and belittle all other brands that would be very annoying and counter productive. My preferences are well-known [if you did a search] but I would never suggest my choices would satisfy everyone. It's only natural for us to want to share the success we've enjoyed and the joy our system allows [or you'd hope with all the time and $$$ invested] but when you continually knock alternative approaches to system-building, component type or label preference that is just "poor form" as the English say.
I've said many times that I do not believe any one system can do everything well. That the current SOTA still requires certain compromises by the system-builder to choose what to embellish. To the unknowing any one of these systems would appear to do it all but there will always be one system that can do something better than another. The key is knowing what you're after and then finding components that best stroke that desire. Ex: My system is flawed. The Silverline speaker / Moth amp partnership is suspect. I replaced a very nice VAC 32wpc push-pull amp with a 3wpc SET amp - driving 93db speakers. Even though the speakers are an EZ load and the SET is quite "ballsy" there are limits to what this combo can do. I can't play "big music" but that isn't my preference. I prefer intimate music and recordings. For my tastes, my system draws me in like no other system I've witnessed long term. Sure, the VAC amp was a better match with the speakers but after two years I found myself spending more time admiring the equipment than the source. For me that is a sin. For someone else maybe not. And the current "mismatch" is going on it's 5th year, and still manages to make me smile whenever I press play.
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Hey Kex;
i would add yourself to the list and add Wooch ontop of it also. Dont you think that we get tired of constant Paradigm and HT recommendations? Maybe this forum needs different categories with price classes. Other big audio video forums have this and its wonderfull. There are "budget recommendations" in the ten thousand dollar area too and not only in the 200 dollar area. Maybe more seperated sections are a good thing.
-Flo
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