-
This thread turned out to be most helpfull for me and properbly for you guys too. I understand the reactions that i usually get now. I am sure i am a useful extension for audioreview and i can help you guys with budget decision too since i have had quite a few of them. I always thought you guys were like 16,18 or a little over 20 with some ocasional folk over that age. I thought you guys didint understand the difference between a B&W 602 and a Apogee Scintilla or Wilson Audio Alexandria etc.. i was wrong, you guys mostly have wife, kids, car payments etc... so spending 5K or more on a speaker is not really an option.
-Flo
-
5K is more like the whole system. More then money,age, or room size,the biggest factor is WAF,hands down. Doesnt matter your age with that. LOL Now i understand some of the past problems, you diaper wearers. Its like us dads talking to the kids. Lets see,at 20 i was making $100 take home for 52 hours aweek and in an apartment with a friend so no sounds for me but for my car. Remember,6X9 Tri's. :D
Doping,party's and cards and concerts{you know,$8.50 for a ticket} filled my time.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by shokhead
5K is more like the whole system. More then money,age, or room size,the biggest factor is WAF,hands down. Doesnt matter your age with that. LOL Now i understand some of the past problems, you diaper wearers. Its like us dads talking to the kids. Lets see,at 20 i was making $100 take home for 52 hours aweek and in an apartment with a friend so no souns for me but for my car. Remember,6X9 Tri's. :D
:D ... I suddenly feel so small and young !!! Eventough i am not small with 1.93m
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
This thread turned out to be most helpfull for me and properbly for you guys too. I understand the reactions that i usually get now. I am sure i am a useful extension for audioreview and i can help you guys with budget decision too since i have had quite a few of them. I always thought you guys were like 16,18 or a little over 20 with some ocasional folk over that age. I thought you guys didint understand the difference between a B&W 602 and a Apogee Scintilla or Wilson Audio Alexandria etc.. i was wrong, you guys mostly have wife, kids, car payments etc... so spending 5K or more on a speaker is not really an option.
-Flo
Flo Does this mean your staying if so great ,I see that know you understand there is all type of people and buget on this forum and this is what makes it interesting .There no bias and were all equal.In life we all learn.And who says you cant show a old dog a knew trick?Im learning and want to learn by the great advice that I get and receive here .Pat.P
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT.P
Flo Does this mean your staying if so great ,I see that know you understand there is all type of people and buget on this forum and this is what makes it interesting .There no bias and were all equal.In life we all learn.And who says you cant show a old dog a knew trick?Im learning and want to learn by the great advice that I get and receive here .Pat.P
Yup i am staying. I understand now how our frustration became so large.
:-)
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
Yup i am staying. I understand now how our frustration became so large.
:-)
:) glad to hear
-
Im glad
Flo Thats great ! One question when I restarted looking in speaker market alot of advice was to look for Frequency Response ,Room Sensitivity,Impedance, Crossover. Could you add your comment on this and also be honest with on this I could take it .My towers are the new Generation of Dahlquist speaker.They are QX9 30hz-20khz typical room/ In average room 92db@2.83V,1m .Nominal Impedance 6 ohms,Crossover Frequency 2.9khz.What would in the high-end audio speaker market rate this on the scale of one to ten.Like I said I could take it .Having a Ex-Wife ,and Czech inlaws on my 2 time around and me being French Im use to criticism.Pat.P
-
Good news
I'm glad to hear (read) that you are staying. Can I hit you with a new question then? I am looking at the NHT ST4's as well as the mags. Have you hear these? If so, how do they compare. Luckily there is a dealer not far from here that has both. I will get there in the next few weeks. I have a huge billiards tournament next weekend so it will have to be at least two weeks before I can go listen. The NHT's seem to sound better on paper but paper sometimes lies.
Thanks
Mike
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT.P
Flo Thats great ! One question when I restarted looking in speaker market alot of advice was to look for Frequency Response ,Room Sensitivity,Impedance, Crossover. Could you add your comment on this and also be honest with on this I could take it .My towers are the new Generation of Dahlquist speaker.They are QX9 30hz-20khz typical room/ In average room 92db@2.83V,1m .Nominal Impedance 6 ohms,Crossover Frequency 2.9khz.What would in the high-end audio speaker market rate this on the scale of one to ten.Like I said I could take it .Having a Ex-Wife ,and Czech inlaws on my 2 time around and me being French Im use to criticism.Pat.P
Well i have two stepmothers, so i understand :p
I dont know the Dahlquist personally, but from what i can see i think that 2.9khz is pretty critical as a crossover point. It is important (to me) that all drivers have the same sonic signature. This is important because a instrument has a large range and goes over all the drivers usually. Now every material has a different sonic signature and therefore the instrument will not sound correctly. This is espeically true for the B&W range.
Technical specifications dont tell the whole story unfortunalty. My speakers cross at 500 and 3Khz, but since they all have the same material and are very very close together there is no missing link or transition problems.
The 30Hz inroom response is garbage because it totally depends on your room. My Scintilla's if moved 7 feet from the wall only goes down to aprox.30Hz but when pushed back a little to 5.5ft they play flat down to 22Hz. Bass traps can help and setup of thirds. Becarefull about the whole bass ratings. I see many ratings from bookshelves down to 40Hz etc.. this will almost never be reached in a meaningfull way in a normal room.
Box resonances are also important and they can be minimized with good construction or tricks to cancel them out in the chassy. Pay good attention to the build quality, knock on the speaker a few times and see how well it is dampened. A speaker that i find exeptionally well build for the money are the DALI speakers and the VMPS speakers. B&W is quite good too, but you pay too much for the advertising and dealers in my opinion.
Back to the Dahli..the x-over point seems a bit critical and the 30Hz really depends on your room. Did you hear them yet?
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
I'm glad to hear (read) that you are staying. Can I hit you with a new question then? I am looking at the NHT ST4's as well as the mags. Have you hear these? If so, how do they compare. Luckily there is a dealer not far from here that has both. I will get there in the next few weeks. I have a huge billiards tournament next weekend so it will have to be at least two weeks before I can go listen. The NHT's seem to sound better on paper but paper sometimes lies.
Thanks
Mike
Sure you can hit me with a question :p
The 500$ NHT's are properbly a good speaker for the money. I did hear a few NHT's a while back and found their slender profile to be quite an advantage which makes them very transparent. As far as Maggies go, they seek a totally different musical character. The NHT's are definetly easier to place and not as critical to electronics as the Maggies are. If you want to really jam and crank the system up the NHT is better. If you listen to smaller jazz music, classical and soft rock than the Maggies will give you much more realism and truer tonality and larger soundfield. You need space behind them and a midly sweet tube amp ;-) You can trade the MMG's in once you like a pair of 12 or 1.6 ... as far as musical honesty goes i would say the maggies and if you like to jam and crank them up and dont really mind loosing a bit of tonality, and honestly and soundstage than the NHT is a great buy too. I am a bit biased since one will never know how much color speakers add thaks to the cabinet.
WAF might be a pain with the Maggies, but the MMG's are quite small.
:p
-
Dahlquist
Flo I bought these Dahlquist QX9 after auditioning Paradigm Monitor 7,Energy C5 and Klipsch RF25.To my ears the Dahlquist sounded more real and clear on the lows.The onlything that I have done yet is to Bi-Wire them.Would this improved them?Just bought a Yamaha 3 weeks ago to replace a Sony .My system is on my first floor and floors are wood,the room is 26X16.They said in free field 90db@2.83,1m.What is a good crossover range for a speaker.Thanks Pat.P
-
The best crossover point is no crossover point or only one... [right RGA ;-)]
But we can make up for that by having crossover points in regions were our ear does not notice it much. For instance on the VMPS RM30 the crossover points are 166Hz and 7Khz. Which means that in the biggest part of the audiable range there is no crossover and all drivers are identical which gives you perfect transition. If you have a break in the 3KHz range and move from one driver to another you will not have a smooth transition. Now some speakers do this better than others, but it would be best to have a x-over at something below 500Hz and above 5Khz in order to prevent that.
-Flo
This is from http://www.transom.org/tools/editing...rocessing.html
Quote:
the ear is especially sensitive to the range of frequencies produced by the human voice -- approximately 500hz to 5khz. So it's no surprise that audio equipment is designed to function most effortlessly in this same frequency range
-
Crossover
Flo The next step up speakers from Dahlquist are the QX10 4ohms crossover 200hz-2.9.Would you rate this a better crossover point.Thanks again.Pat.P
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT.P
Flo The next step up speakers from Dahlquist are the QX10 4ohms crossover 200hz-2.9.Would you rate this a better crossover point.Thanks again.Pat.P
Not really :-)
I would look for a higher x-over point. Something like 500Hz and 5khz if possible. If the one is a 2 way speaker and the other a 3way speaker, then it will properlby sound less stressed since it has a dedicated unit for the bass.
-Flo
-
Crossover
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
Not really :-)
I would look for a higher x-over point. Something like 500Hz and 5khz if possible. If the one is a 2 way speaker and the other a 3way speaker, then it will properlby sound less stressed since it has a dedicated unit for the bass.
-Flo
Flo Do you Bi-Amp or Bi-wire ? Do you believe in it?Whats the best way on doing this ?Will I notice a improvement?Thanks Pat.P
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT.P
Flo Do you Bi-Amp or Bi-wire ? Do you believe in it?Whats the best way on doing this ?Will I notice a improvement?Thanks Pat.P
Well i do biwire and on my speaker it makes a huge difference. I think it depends entirely on speaker design. The best way would be to use cables with different characteristics (more bass or more height) and use it either on the mid/hi or bass input to achieve the sonic signature you want. Two identical cables with short length would be great since length add resistance. I wish i could drive my Scintilla actively but thats pretty much impossible since the tweeter ribbon is 0.1ohm !!
Try Biwiring and if budget permits biamping with a external electronic crossover (behringer, tact, lyngdorf) and i am sure youll hear a difference. Now if the difference stands next to the spending is a different story :-)
-Flo
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
The best crossover point is no crossover point or only one... [right RGA ;-)]
But we can make up for that by having crossover points in regions were our ear does not notice it much. For instance on the VMPS RM30 the crossover points are 166Hz and 7Khz. Which means that in the biggest part of the audiable range there is no crossover and all drivers are identical which gives you perfect transition. If you have a break in the 3KHz range and move from one driver to another you will not have a smooth transition. Now some speakers do this better than others, but it would be best to have a x-over at something below 500Hz and above 5Khz in order to prevent that.
-Flo
This is from http://www.transom.org/tools/editing...rocessing.html
Hey Flo, I agree wholeheartedly about the 166 and 7k buisness. I do have a problem with xovers at 500Hz (it's right in the path of vocals) as far as the ultimate solution is concerned; the 166cps you mention in the VMPS RM30 would be much better. Also the the stuff about the voice being the predominate distinguisher in regards to coherancy differentiation is spot on in my book. As far as I'm concerned though, the difference between 3k and 7k is less objectionable if handled properly than the difference between 166Hz and 500Hz, but then I'm older and hear things differently. Also note that those higher frequency wavelengths are much shorter and more easily maniplated physically in a small transducer, and even cheaper to fix in the crossover.
After all that, I must say that I've never seen two drivers that match perfectly, and that's as a statement of measureable quantification. Maybe if you select the best 2 out of 10 you might come close.
Also we haven't even approached the directional characteristics of drivers capable of reproducing the various ranges. There's a great modifier to your soundstage, Q, and direct/reflected ratio. Not only that, but it changes all throughout the spectrum as the wavelength from each dirver approaches (edit... meant 1/2 the wavelength, where beaminess ensues) the wavelength of the physical size of the driver. Actually this one specification has become king in live sound... directional control. It's why large sophisticated line arrays have become so popular :D
-
Bi-Wiring
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
Well i do biwire and on my speaker it makes a huge difference. I think it depends entirely on speaker design. The best way would be to use cables with different characteristics (more bass or more height) and use it either on the mid/hi or bass input to achieve the sonic signature you want. Two identical cables with short length would be great since length add resistance. I wish i could drive my Scintilla actively but thats pretty much impossible since the tweeter ribbon is 0.1ohm !!
Try Biwiring and if budget permits biamping with a external electronic crossover (behringer, tact, lyngdorf) and i am sure youll hear a difference. Now if the difference stands next to the spending is a different story :-)
-Flo
Flo Never heard a cable with more bass or more height :confused:What cable would you recommend As for an external electronic crossover ,what would you recommend in the Behringer.Wife is going away to Checkerland(Czech) I'll have time to kill.And yes Im taking notes .Thanks Pat.P
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixadude
Hey Flo, I agree wholeheartedly about the 166 and 7k buisness. I do have a problem with xovers at 500Hz (it's right in the path of vocals) as far as the ultimate solution is concerned; the 166cps you mention in the VMPS RM30 would be much better. Also the the stuff about the voice being the predominate distinguisher in regards to coherancy differentiation is spot on in my book. As far as I'm concerned though, the difference between 3k and 7k is less objectionable if handled properly than the difference between 166Hz and 500Hz, but then I'm older and hear things differently. Also note that those higher frequency wavelengths are much shorter and more easily maniplated physically in a small transducer, and even cheaper to fix in the crossover.
After all that, I must say that I've never seen two drivers that match perfectly, and that's as a statement of measureable quantification. Maybe if you select the best 2 out of 10 you might come close.
Also we haven't even approached the directional characteristics of drivers capable of reproducing the various ranges. There's a great modifier to your soundstage, Q, and direct/reflected ratio. Not only that, but it changes all throughout the spectrum as the wavelength from each dirver approaches the wavelength of the physical size of the driver. Actually this one specification has become king in live sound... directional control. It's why large sophisticated line arrays have become so popular :D
Yup also true. :-) There are some companys that select the best out of 10 for matching, but they usually carry a hiher price tag. I think that if you dont know the company/products then the x-overs points are a good think to look at while shopping.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT.P
Flo Never heard a cable with more bass or more height :confused:What cable would you recommend As for an external electronic crossover ,what would you recommend in the Behringer.Wife is going away to Checkerland(Czech) I'll have time to kill.And yes Im taking notes .Thanks Pat.P
Well i have noticed this actually. Most cables that i have which are solid core are quite thick like the Audioquest Slate and do reinforce the bass a bit. My smaller/thinner wires like the Wireworld Solstice have less bass but more definition in the heighs. I think this comes from the the overall resistance of the cable. You need to play a bit around with that, build yourself some cables from CAT5 and see if you hear the difference.
The Behringer Units have digital room correction and electronic crossovers which you can use with 2 power amps. You can also you the electronic x-over in combination with a good subwoofer and set different slopes and x-over points with better integration than what the makes alows you to set.
-Flo
-
Cable debates...
...belong in the cable forum...but...
More bass(height???, no less!!!) from a wire? Yeah, right...Cables may affect the high freqs and roll them off, giving the IMPRESSION of more bass, but that's entirely subjective and anecdotal; simply based on the fact that such things are relative in nature...
Don't like "hi-fi"...tsk, tsk...that's what the majority of folks are here to talk about...Sorry you find us peons offensive to your pretense and sensibilities...I have a mid-fi(price-wise) system that's worth about $5kUSD...and I listen to music...you prefer to be a high-end gearhead, have at it, but don't p!$$ and moan because you can't find someone to compare notes with, in your "exclusive" little playground.
As the saying goes, "Don't let the door hit you in the @$$ on the way out"
jimHJJ(...Bon voyage!...)
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...belong in the cable forum...but...
More bass(height???, no less!!!) from a wire? Yeah, right...Cables may affect the high freqs and roll them off, giving the IMPRESSION of more bass, but that's entirely subjective and anecdotal; simply based on the fact that such things are relative in nature...
Don't like "hi-fi"...tsk, tsk...that's what the majority of folks are here to talk about...Sorry you find us peons offensive to your pretense and sensibilities...I have a mid-fi(price-wise) system that's worth about $5kUSD...and I listen to music...you prefer to be a high-end gearhead, have at it, but don't p!$$ and moan because you can't find someone to compare notes with, in your "exclusive" little playground.
As the saying goes, "Don't let the door hit you in the @$$ on the way out"
jimHJJ(...Bon voyage!...)
Thank you for only reading the first post :p ......
-
Actually...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
Thank you for only reading the first post...
...I also read the few most recent. How else would I have known about, and been able to comment on, the cable remarks?
Your first post is the crux of the biscuit, and that is what the remaining content of my response touched on...anything in the ensuing chit-chat is, for the most part, irrelevant IMHO...
jimHJJ(...a thousand pardons if I continue to offend thee...)
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...I also read the few most recent. How else would I have known about, and been able to comment on, the cable remarks?
Your first post is the crux of the biscuit, and that is what the remaining content of my response touched on...anything in the ensuing chit-chat is, for the most part, irrelevant IMHO...
jimHJJ(...a thousand pardons if I continue to offend thee...)
It seems that you are out to pick a fight, sorry to disapoint you :D
-Have a good one
-
Thanks Flo
I do like to blast the R&R from time to time. But I also like jazz as well. I guess I'll have to listen and think about it for a bit. The WAF shouldn't be a problem this time. These are going down stairs along with my pool table. I'm being kicked out of the family room. hahaha... So the basement is MINE.
|