Is a 10-inch sub big enough?

[NoMSG]

I posted below about a choice between two 10-inch subs.

But then I thought, "Is a 10 incher big enough?"

The entertainment room is 13 x 20 with a typical 8-foot ceiling. The weird thing is that along one of the 20 foot walls is a 6-foot wide archway that connects that room to a slightly larger room.

So, will a 10-inch sub like the SVS PB-10, be sufficient for HT?

[Aric M L]

That depends on your taste. However I feel that's plenty, then again I'm the kind of guy who doesn't need books rattling off the shelves. It also depends on the model of subwoofer. I've heard friends with sony "subwoofers" of the 10 or 12 inch variety that just belched out some rotten vibrations. However I'm currently saving for a B&W ASW-300 which is an 8 inch down-ported sub woofer and I feel adds all the punch I need, albeit I will use it in a slightly smaller room. Ask a dealer for an in-home demo, see how you feel for yourself.

[bargainseeker]

I posted below about a choice between two 10-inch subs.

But then I thought, "Is a 10 incher big enough?"

The entertainment room is 13 x 20 with a typical 8-foot ceiling. The weird thing is that along one of the 20 foot walls is a 6-foot wide archway that connects that room to a slightly larger room.

So, will a 10-inch sub like the SVS PB-10, be sufficient for HT?

Unless you are a total bass-aholic, a single PB10 should be plenty for your medium sized room. With any subwoofer, you will probably get a peak in the bass response in this room due to the floor-to-ceiling standing wave (room mode). If you have some extra room in your budget, I would strongly recommend that you get a setup disk and sound pressure level (SPL) meter with the subwoofer. You may need a Behringer Feedback Destroyer (BFD) or similar device to smooth out this and other peaks.

[This Guy]

Personally I'd get atleast a 12", 15" is preferred. That's a pretty big room and a typical 10" would in no way fulfill my expectations. Depends what kind of bass you prefer.

[cam]

I'm on my third sub. I tried the paradigm pdr-10. Sounded good but I was soon left wanting more. I then got the ps-1000 which is also a 10 incher and shortly there after thought, how I like to listen to my music and movies I'm trying to get more then a 10 inch sub can put out. My third sub was a 12 incher (pw-2200) which I should have aimed for in the first place and saved myself some money and time. A 12 can reach to lower hz then your typical 10 and can play louder and cleaner with less strain. My advice, get atleast a 12 so you won't get upgradites like I did. A bigger sized cone can move more air and when you are talking about 80hz and lower, bigger is better.

[kexodusc]

Cam is quite right, although there are other factors besides surface area that affect subwoofer performance and the ability to push air.
All things equal, a 12" is probably better than a 10". But it does often cost more...
If money is a concern, you'll have fun with the SVS.
If you can spring for 12", you'll thank yourself later.

If you can find (or build) a 15"...even better.

[bargainseeker]

A 12 can reach to lower hz then your typical 10 and can play louder and cleaner with less strain.

The SVS PB10 is far from a typical 10". It plays lower in the bass with higher output and lower distortion than the vast majority of 12" subwoofers on the market.

[cam]

The SVS PB10 is far from a typical 10". It plays lower in the bass with higher output and lower distortion than the vast majority of 12" subwoofers on the market.

Is there an equivalent 12 to that pb10, meaning in the same line. When I was describing a 12 against a 10 I wasn't describing the best 12 against a typical 10, I was meaning a typical 12 against a typical 10 within the same series or line. If someone was considering the velodyne spl 10 I would recommend the spl 12 for my previously stated reasons.

[NoMSG]

The SVS PB10 is far from a typical 10". It plays lower in the bass with higher output and lower distortion than the vast majority of 12" subwoofers on the market.

Perhaps I should have been clearer, but I am asking specifically about a sub of the caliber of the SVS PB-10 (and maybe the Hsu VTF-2). From, what I've read, it's a phenomenal sub for it's size and price. However, I wouldn't want to get it only to want a larger one later on.

I realize that it's a matter of taste how big or low is enough. But I'm just trying to get an idea of whether most people on this forum would consider such a sub sufficient for the room I have--again it's a 13 x 20 with a 6-foot wide opening along one wall that connects it to the adjacent slightly larger room. I guess a separate question is whether this opening to the adjacent room should be considered in determining what size/output sub to get.

Sorry for being so long-winded. I really appreciate all the advice I've been given so far.

Thanks.

[bargainseeker]

Perhaps I should have been clearer, but I am asking specifically about a sub of the caliber of the SVS PB-10 (and maybe the Hsu VTF-2). From, what I've read, it's a phenomenal sub for it's size and price. However, I wouldn't want to get it only to want a larger one later on.

I realize that it's a matter of taste how big or low is enough. But I'm just trying to get an idea of whether most people on this forum would consider such a sub sufficient for the room I have--again it's a 13 x 20 with a 6-foot wide opening along one wall that connects it to the adjacent slightly larger room. I guess a separate question is whether this opening to the adjacent room should be considered in determining what size/output sub to get.

As I understand it, SVS does make a 12" subwoofer that uses the same type of motor technology and suspension technology and has the same manufacturer as the woofer in the PB10. That subwoofer is the PC-Ultra (and the forthcoming PB12-Ultra). The prices on the PC-Ultra and PB12-Ultra are $1149 and $1199 respectively. While the PC-Ultra is an excellent product, it is considerably more expensive than the PB10 and, in my opinion, would be overkill in a room of your size. My understanding is that SVS is now working on a new version of their dB-12 (Plus) woofer that will incorporate the technology used in the TV-12 (Ultra) and PB10 woofers. Once these updated Plus series subwoofers become available, they are likely to be less expensive alternatives to the Ultra series for buyers seeking the lowest distortion and best transient response.

As to playing low, the 3dB down point of the PB10 is 18Hz in an anechoic chamber. In your listening room, the 3dB down point is likely to be around 14-15Hz. How much lower do you need a subwoofer to go?

I recommend that you contact SVS and discuss with them your room size and requirements. I continue to believe, however, that in a room of your dimensions your money would be better spent on a PB10 + setup disk + SPL meter + BFD than it would be on a more expensive subwoofer.

[N. Abstentia]

The SVS PB10 is far from a typical 10". It plays lower in the bass with higher output and lower distortion than the vast majority of 12" subwoofers on the market.

No matter what an SVS magazine ad says, they cannont defy the laws of physics. A 10" cone is still a 10" cone.

[shokhead]

Always felt like a 10" is borderline as far as a true sub goes. For me they start at 12".

[bargainseeker]

No matter what an SVS magazine ad says, they cannont defy the laws of physics. A 10" cone is still a 10" cone.

I can't say that I have ever seen an SVS magazine ad, let alone read one. My comments are based on a combination of independent objective tests, objective information and personal experience.

Whether you realize it or not, my comments are intended to help consumers like NoMSG and are not financially beneficial to SVS. There are some on the business side of SVS who would like you to believe that each of their subwoofers is superior in every way to all of the less expensive subwoofers that they offer. Why? Because their profit per subwoofer goes up as the price per subwoofer goes up (their profit margin in % probably goes up as well). However, objective test results do not support the idea that every SVS sub is better in every way than every cheaper SVS sub. As one result, SVS is backordered on PB10 subs while still having plenty of inventory on their 12" ISD models. I would not be at all surprised if SVS phases out their 12" ISD models after their updated Plus models become available. I am not saying that the SVS 12" ISD subwoofers are bad. In fact, they remain very competitive with the offerings from other manufacturers in their price ranges. What I am saying is that SVS has out done themselves with the PB10.

[kexodusc]

As to playing low, the 3dB down point of the PB10 is 18Hz in an anechoic chamber. In your listening room, the 3dB down point is likely to be around 14-15Hz. How much lower do you need a subwoofer to go?

The -3dB point appears to be more around 19 Hz than 18 (-6 or -7 dB by the graph on the SVS website) but I could believe with this ported design and that TC Sounds woofer that 18 Hz is possible. The 14-15 Hz extension with a ported design just defies all logic...where did you arrive at these numbers? Does SVS publish this? You might be lucky to be -10 dB at those frequencies in room with a ported design, which is still quite good for commerical sub at this price point. Not that any of us could hear that or that many DVD's even bother with those frequencies...

SVS and HsuResearch have really advanced the commercial sub market in recent years...

[bargainseeker]

The 14-15 Hz extension with a ported design just defies all logic...where did you arrive at these numbers? Does SVS publish this? You might be lucky to be -10 dB at those frequencies in room with a ported design, which is still quite good for commerical sub at this price point. Not that any of us could hear that or that many DVD's even bother with those frequencies....

14-15Hz is my guess-tamite based on room gain in a mid sized room combined with flattening the frequency response curve with a BFD (no low bass boost). The 18Hz anechoic 3dB point is from SVS published specs.

[46minaudio]

No matter what an SVS magazine ad says, they cannont defy the laws of physics. A 10" cone is still a 10" cone.

However the measurments do not lie..They have been measured by the best..Depending on the design a 10" sub can go lower and louder than 12".Take your time in picking a sub.Check out the HTF for some Data on these subs..Do a search on this forum for (woochifer) on how to set a sub up for each room..There is some great information in there based on facts.Also I have never heard anyone say "my sub goes to low and to Loud I want to return it"So get what you wnat now..
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...?s=&forumid=46

[Ryanm]

I've always been of the camp that if you can afford it get the biggest/best sub you can (probably will be upgrading mine at some point, but that doesn't change why I bought the size i did)
I'm of the mind that if you get a huge sub and it's a bit too loud, you can always turn it down, you cannot however do anything to help a sub that is anemic once it's at it's max output, other than getting a bigger one.

To paraprhase it somewhat, it's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. Basically if you spend a little extra money and it's too loud, you can always turn it down, if it's too low and it's turned up to the max though, the only thing you can do is spend nearly double the money (unless you return the sub and the dealer accepts the exchange, but you're still looking at S&H unless you buy at a retail chain). Just some things to think about.

[kexodusc]

14-15Hz is my guess-tamite based on room gain in a mid sized room combined with flattening the frequency response curve with a BFD (no low bass boost). The 18Hz anechoic 3dB point is from SVS published specs.

Okay with the BFD, I can see that...impressive indeed. I took a look at their page some more...seems they've got some newer models now.
I haven't heard this sub but I'm aweful curious now...
Response curves don't really tell enough of the story as overtones and harmonics come into play too...not to mention lag for the woofer's excursion, but this looks like another solid unit form SVS on the surface.

[N. Abstentia]

I'm not saying a 10" sub CAN'T play louder than a 12", but all things being equal a 12" cone will move more air than a 10" cone. It's just simple physics, folks. It's loudspeaker design 101. It's elementary.

Now if you want to give up some accuracy you can increase the Xmax of the 10" to equal the 12"..but then all things are not equal anymore. Unless they screwed up with the design of the 12, it should play louder and deeper than the 10.

[46minaudio]

I'm not saying a 10" sub CAN'T play louder than a 12", but all things being equal a 12" cone will move more air than a 10" cone..

I agree but we are talking different subs from different manufactures with different boxes,amps,and drivers..All things are anything but equal..

[shokhead]

But 10"'s of woofer is 10"'s of woofer and that never going to change. 10" will only reproduce so much. Bigger isnt always better but in subs,most the time it is.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

posted below about a choice between two 10-inch subs.

But then I thought, "Is a 10 incher big enough?"

The entertainment room is 13 x 20 with a typical 8-foot ceiling. The weird thing is that along one of the 20 foot walls is a 6-foot wide archway that connects that room to a slightly larger room.

So, will a 10-inch sub like the SVS PB-10, be sufficient for HT?

Whatever sub you choose will see your 13x20' room, and the room the archway opens in to. That is more total volume a 10" woofer has to see. While the SVS measures and performs well, the question is will it be able to take the great measurements it has to a room with this overall internal volume. My answer is no, no matter how good the 10" is.

Much really depends on how loud and clean you like your bass. I personally like alot of clean bass(it must balance with the rest of the system though), so I wouldn't consider anything smaller than a 15" for your size room. I also believe in leaving headroom for a sub to operate, so I never get anything that just fits my room. I have a requirement that all of my channels have at least 3-6db headroom over what I will need currently. That is my taste, you will have to find out what yours is, and then decide what is an appropriate size driver for your room.

There are other considerations too. If anyone has been paying any attention to their soundtracks lately, bass is getting deeper and more powerful with every action movie made.

[JamezHill]

Is it better to have a sealed subwoofer enclosure or ported? I was under the impression that sealed is more accurate but ported plays louder/deeper.??

[This Guy]

thats been discussed a thousand times. do a search for it