Hsu VTF-2 or or SVS PB10-ISB?

[NoMSG]

Hey all:

I've been off this board for about 3 years. It sure looks different. Anyway:

I was pretty much set on getting the VTF-2. But I recently saw a glowing review of the SVS PB10-ISB, a sub I had not heard of before.

At this point, it looks like the PB10 is a better speaker in that it goes down flat to under 20 Hz, whereas the VTF goes only down to 25.

Does the VTF-2 have any advantages over the SB10-ISB? The Hsu is $70 more, but that wouldn't stop me from getting it if it was a better sub. The only reason I'm hesitating is that the SVS seems to be a less well known product.

Any other comparable subs for the same sub-$500 price point that aren't kits?

Thanks all.

[bargainseeker]

I've been off this board for about 3 years. It sure looks different. Anyway:

I was pretty much set on getting the VTF-2. But I recently saw a glowing review of the SVS PB10-ISB, a sub I had not heard of before.

At this point, it looks like the PB10 is a better speaker in that it goes down flat to under 20 Hz, whereas the VTF goes only down to 25.

Does the VTF-2 have any advantages over the SB10-ISB? The Hsu is $70 more, but that wouldn't stop me from getting it if it was a better sub. The only reason I'm hesitating is that the SVS seems to be a less well known product.

Both subwoofers are fine products from reputable companies with excellent customer service. As I see it, the advantages of the VTF-2 are smaller size, built-in crossover and more established reputation. The advantages of the PB10 are deeper bass, lower distortion, better transient response and lower price. I don't think you would go wrong with either choice, but my personal recommendation would be the PB10 if you have room for it and have a crossover function in your receiver or preprocessor. On the other hand, if your listening room is especially small, I would recommend the VTF-2. Because of room gain, having a subwoofer that can produce high levels of low frequency bass can be a disadvantage in a small room.

[Worf101]

I've heard others, and since I own both the HSU VTF-2 and VTF-3 I was able to compare them soundwise. In that you say the PB10 is a relatively new unit I'd suggest going the HSU they've been making the VTF-2 for quite some time now and I've owned one fur 3 years without a hiccup. I also think that the extra features are worth the $70.00 premium. But lest anyone thing I'm just a HSU Fanboi I'd think you be fine with either sub, but I personally would go with the modle with the longer track record.

Da Worfster

[Peter Marcks]

Good evening NoMSG!

We have compared our STF-2 and VTF-2 MKII to the latest and greatest from the competition, and feel that our products more than hold their own in terms of sound quality, dynamic compression levels, and bass output per given floor space. Our customers who have compared them have said as such.

The VTF-2 MKII and STF-2 have a low $25 flat shipping rate, so price difference is generally + or - $50. The VTF-2 MKII has 50 watts more RMS power and 200 watts more peak power than the STF-2, in addition to dual heavily flared 3" ports and the option to variably tune the subwoofer. The VTF-2 MKII also has a higher quality no-cost blond maple finish option.

We are working on some cutting edge brand new technology that we will offer as a cost-effective upgrade option for current VTF-2 MKII, STF-3, and VTF-3 MKII owners. This should significantly boost performance for a relatively small cost to the user.

In my opinion, initial cost aside, the VTF-2 MKII is a better long term investment than the STF-2 because it can be upgraded with new technology.

Also do not hesitate to compare various brands in home if possible.

Best of luck to you!

Sincerely,

Peter Marcks
Hsu Research

[Tom V.]

>>>Any other comparable subs for the same sub-$500 price point that aren't kits?

Thanks all.<<<

The Velodyne CHT15 and JBL S120 are both <$500 and have done very well when professionally reviewed by Tom Nousaine. Instead of depending on marketing-speak, research all your choices and look for independent profession reviews that include plenty of objective(real) performance data...like this.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...r-10-2004.html

If you go to www.hometheaterforum.com and search on Ed Mullen (the professional reviewer in question) you'll find several of his reviews on subwoofers in the $400-600 range.

Tom V.
SVS

[Richard Greene]

The HSU post is trying to sell their subwoofer (subjective marketing approach)

The SVS post suggests other brands and points out independent reviews (objective engineering approach).

I'm much more impressed with an objective engineering approach that does not try to sell you anything because subwoofers are best judged by their "numbers" ( the only fair auditions to compare subwoofers would require use of the same location in the same room).

The SVS does require use of the receiver's low pass filter.
That could be its only weak point.
If that receiver filter is 24dB/octave at 80Hz., it may be satisfactory.
However, some main speakers may sound better, and the subwoofer
may be more sonically invisible, if the turnover frequency was 70Hz. or
60Hz. ... or even 50Hz. for "full-range" main speakers.

Although it would mean nothing to most audiophiles, a DIY subwoofer builder like me (since 1980) is very impressed by the use of a TC Sounds driver in an inexpensive $400 SVS subwoofer. A good subwoofer starts with a good driver and TC Sounds has a very good reputation.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I have always appreciated Tom V's "let somebody else tell how good my subs sound" attitude. If enough reviewers say the same things about a sub(and they usually say good things about both brands) then there must be something right(or wrong in some cases) going on in those boxes.

I would put my money on the SVS because I used to own 20-39PC that literally threw me out of my couch on deep bass impacts. I have never read a bad review(or even a mediocre one) about the SVS, never heard complaints, or even the slightest of negative word. To me that says alot.

[NoMSG]

It looks like the only thing I should look into at this point is the low-pass bass management point for my receiver. It's an Onkyo TX-DS575, and the manual does not give the cut-off specs for the sub out. I'll email them wit the question, but I recall that they take their time in responding.

[Peter Marcks]

Good evening gentlemen,

The VTF products probably have more independently measured and objective data available on them than most subwoofer brands, measured by some of the most reputable professional reviewers in the business (Tom Nousaine, Robert Deutsch, Richard Hardesty, Howard Ferstler, etc). That said, we are working on some brand new cutting edge technology that will significantly enhance performance even on existing VTF-2 MKII, STF-3, and VTF-3 MKII subs.

Regarding marketing, I really do not know what to say. Dr. Hsu is an audio genius and a brilliant engineer, but he is not an aggressive marketer by any means, as you can see by Hsu Research's lack of manufacturer presence on the forums for the last X number of years. As a result, more vocal manufacturer's have set themselves in stone on the internet, while there has been some misunderstanding about our products and bass in general. We figure that we owe it to consumers to help them learn more about our products and bass in general, even if we have to defend our own products at the same time.

And for what it's worth Dr. Greene, you will probably never see me post a link to a review on our own product just to make a sale. Hsu Research actually makes relatively little profit, as we spend most of our money on research and development. Even Dr. Hsu pays himself very little money from the company. We all do this out of a pure passion for audio, and with the goal of satisfying the consumer.

We always encourage users to try out as many brands as possible, in their own home. There are many fantastic products on the market. Do not hesistate to look at brands such as Velodyne, Onix, Adire Audio, Paradigm, Acoustic Visions, PSB, and so on and so forth.

Perhaps THE most fundamental concept in creating a subwoofer is the idea of tradeoff. All designs involve tradeoffs, and it is up to each designer to determine which tradeoffs to take in order to reach a certain market segment..

The new VTF HO subwoofers that we are working on will challenge some of the existing measures of tradeoffs in subwoofers. Dr. Hsu has developed a patent-pending technology that will allow the user to lower the tune without reducing available port area. In my opinion, this is a huge advancement in variable tuning technology that we introduced with the original VTF-2. These new HO products will also feature very high excursion drivers and high headroom amplifiers, but are not quite ready yet.

Ultimately, try to choose the product that you feel compromises in the least number of ways that you consider to be important to you.

Sincerely,
Peter Marcks
Hsu Research

[Peter Duminy]

I am sure I echo many other Loudspeaker RD&D Designers around the World who hold Dr. Hsu's work in the absolute highest regard.

[Richard Greene]

I always recommend HSU, SVS and ADIRE AUDIO to people looking for a subwoofer bargain.

Because auditioning subwoofers in audio stores tells one little about how they will sound at home, people have to rely on published test data in independent reviews.

Your post (below) provided almost no meaningful data about HSU subwoofers.
The only data that could be meaningful is your comment about heavily flared ports.
Therefore, in my opinion, your post is "marketing".

Your final comment: "Also do not hesitate to compare various brands in home if possible.




We have compared our STF-2 and VTF-2 MKII to the latest and greatest from the competition, and feel that our products more than hold their own in terms of sound quality, dynamic compression levels, and bass output per given floor space. Our customers who have compared them have said as such.

The VTF-2 MKII and STF-2 have a low $25 flat shipping rate, so price difference is generally + or - $50. The VTF-2 MKII has 50 watts more RMS power and 200 watts more peak power than the STF-2, in addition to dual heavily flared 3" ports and the option to variably tune the subwoofer. The VTF-2 MKII also has a higher quality no-cost blond maple finish option.

We are working on some cutting edge brand new technology that we will offer as a cost-effective upgrade option for current VTF-2 MKII, STF-3, and VTF-3 MKII owners. This should significantly boost performance for a relatively small cost to the user.

In my opinion, initial cost aside, the VTF-2 MKII is a better long term investment than the STF-2 because it can be upgraded with new technology.

Also do not hesitate to compare various brands in home if possible.

Best of luck to you!