Rogue 88 and Paradigm reference studio 100 v.3

[ealife]

I have juct picked up a pair of Rogue 88 and i plan to buy a pair of Paradigm reference studio 100 v.3. The suitable amplifier power range for 100 v.3 is 15-350 watts and
the Rogue 88 only rated at 70wpc. Since i have two Rogue 88 so i can have bi-amp set up
,will a pair of rogue 88 have enough power the drive a pair of 100 v.3? Are they match? Any advice?

Please help

[Wireworm5]

I used my Yamaha RX-V2200 to drive my Studio 100 v2 which sounded okay. I upgraded to a Bryston 3B-ST (120 watts) to power them and I noticed an improved performance immediately. I don't know much about the Rogue except for what I read on their website. How well they compare to a Bryston I don't know but I think two 70 watt tube amps bi-amped will do the job. I however used two other receivers I have that aren't high current and they couldn't drive the bass woofers when I used them in a bi-amp configuration.

[RGA]

What else have you heard besides the Paradigms. To me they are overpriced and lesser sounding than the $700.00Cdn cheaper B&W 604S3.

For $1500.00Cdn at Soundhounds in Victoria you could get the Audio Note AN-K/Spe standmount. You will lose some bass depth but beyond that the K does everything else better than the 100V3.

You need to hear them somewhere of course, rather than take my word for it, but do compare em side by side. You'll probably do what I did and laugh...it's remarkably better. The K sounds like music, the 100 sounds like hi-fi. Take your pick. You will need a superior "sounding" amplifier - if the Rogue is you'll do well I have not heard em.

I'll be posting some reviews and the 100V3 among others from Epos, Audio Note, B&W, Wilson Audio, Dynaudio will be included.

You're budget can do better than home theater speakers.

[Wireworm5]

If you listen to soft music like Acoustic Alchemy, then a cheaper speaker such as Audio Note AN-K/sp should suffice. But if your tastes are Pop Rock,Hard Rock,Heavy Metal,Techno, Electronic or any bass heavy music. Then you want a speaker that can deliver articulate bass, can slam you in the chest,exquisite treble and is tonally accurate at higher volumes. The Paradigm Studio 100's does all this, what more could you want?

[RGA]

Well Yes the 100 does have the bass power.

However, last years the AN J/SPe is $2500.00Cdn at Soundhounds as well. They only have it in black. But it has more dynamics and much superior bass depth and response - and unluike the Studio 100 actually sounds like real live music. And you need just 8 watts to get very loud with impeccable bass depth. What you won't get is the thin nasal sound in the midband and you won't continually feel the need that you need more and more power to drive them properly.

This is a major problem with poorly designed speakers - always needing to put the volume up to get them to sound good and then when that finally results in a futile experience you will no doubt want to upgrade your amplifier to a more powerful one(whcih usually means a worse sounding one) and then when that fails to work you finally realize the speaker sucked all along so you either stop listening or use it for home theater. Come to Soundhounds in Victoria. Listen to the 100 versus the AN J/Spe. Other than the E listen to the J against any speaker from any brand they carry. Like most of their customers and all of their staff - my bet is you too will walk out with the AN.

If I sound overly passionate - I must admit that is true - I'm not used to being passionate about audio products however. http://www.soundhounds.com/

[Wireworm5]

Paradigm used Research obtained from The National Research Council of Canada in designing their speakers. Surely your not saying Canadian research is inferior? Because of this research they are able to produce a high quality speaker at lower costs.
A reference cd I played to evaluate the nasel sound you discribe is War of the Worlds re-mastered copy.Here Richard Burton's voice is exactly as I've heard him in any of his movies. For HT I recently purchased Pearl Harbor for the DTS. The airplane engines sound so real you'd swear they were flying over your room. Would a poorly designed speaker exhibit this high level of detail? I think not!

[BillB]

Any well designed amplifier will work with the 100's...or any other speaker for that matter. Is it possible for you to take your amps to the Paradigm dealer and see how you like the combo?

The 100v3 is a remarkable speaker with all kinds of music. Something I cannot say about the pair of Vienna Acoustics Mozarts I had previously. The Mozarts were of "audiophile ideals" and sounded very good with jazz, classical, and other acoustical music. Throw some rock or electronic music at them and they were severly lacking.

As rock is my favorite genre and makes up the overwhelming majority of my collection this was unacceptable. The Paradigms bring back the raw emotion and excitement that music of it's type should. As for the recreation of a live event...no speaker is capable of that...and it's not something I personally even desire as my favorite albums are "studio" albums through and through.

Paradigm used Canada's NRC for many many years and gained a wealth of knowledge from the experience. They build all of their own drivers in-house and have constructed state-of-the-art testing facilities that many smaller manufacturers can only dream of when pulling parts off of the shelf. I prefer a company that can make a speaker top-to-bottom in house and have control over the process 100% than one that pulls parts from a thrid-party manufacturer and hopes for the best.

The Studio 100v3 is the best speaker I've ever owned and among the best I've ever heard in it's price range with all types of music as well as home theater.

Bill

[kexodusc]

Guys, don't get too upset at RGA's anti-Paradigm campaign. He's been ripping a strip off them for as long as I've been here. In fact, you pretty much count on the fact that if there's a thread with a person considering Paradigm speakers, RGA brings up Audio Note.(sorry RGA, just trying to level the playing field here) Go ahead, take a look at some old threads. He's right about a lot of things though.

I've heard an aweful lot of the AN-K, even briefly considered it before purchasing my Studio 40's, but in the end I couldn't justify it's expense for what it does. It is a good speaker, making the most use out of very old design philosphies and technologies. And that's not bad. I'd rather old but proven technologies than flashy gimmicks. While I find the K's extremely competent and slightly better in the mid-range than the Studio series, for anything other than narrow frequency range Blues or Jazz music, I prefer the musicality of the Studio's to the almost technical, soul-less, detached presentation of the AN-K. To say the AN-K's do everything better than the 100's except bass is a bit of a stretch at the very least. At worst, it's a lie. But you may prefer the overall presentation better. The audiophiles in my family reamed me pretty bad when I decided against Audio Note and Klipsch for my Home Theater.

To me the Audio Note fanclub is almost as biased as the Axiom fanclub. I say almost, except the Axiom boards will have you believe Axiom makes a better speaker than Audio Note at 1/3 the cost. They must, because it says so on Axiom's website.
In fact, the Audio Note fanclub is probably as bad as the Paradigm fan club. Except most Paradigm fanboys haven't actually heard any speakers besides other Paradigm's and assume all the goofy awards they win means they have to be the best. Audio Note fanboys love them because they sound good, but aren't made by a massive speaker manufacturing/audio equimpment conglomerate.
Their almost exotic in this regard, and that's what makes them so cool.

This presents a good point though. RGA and I can listen to the same 2 pairs of speakers hear the same thing, and prefer 2 totally different things. This doesn't make either brand better or worse, just different.
And RGA will be the first to suggest to everyone that you listen to both that AN's and the Paradigm's and make your own conclusion.

If the AN-K was just outright better, I'm sure Audio Note would be a much bigger much more popular company than it is now, because I refuse to believe that it is just a hobby/past-time with no profit-generating motives. And Soundhounds wouldn't be the first store to recognize the larger sales margins Audio Note offers compared to companies like Paradigm, PSB, B&W, etc. Don't think that doesn't influence the presentation of their speakers.

Wireworm: Don't put too much faith in the "research" Paradigm uses. By the time a design gets to production, compromises are made and much of the research has been abandoned in order to maximize profits. Paradigm's not in the business of making the best speaker period, they're in the business of making as much money as they can on a going concern. This means being comptetitive in performance AND price compared to the other major players. I suspect Paradigm considers speakers like Audio Note, Snell, and Dynaudio a "non-issue"...this will be their downfall.

ealife: FWIW though, I tend to agree with RGA here, while I can tolerate the "to be expected flaws" in the Studio 20's and 40's, the Studio 100's are not a good value speaker in my opinion compared to other offerings. Way too much price premium for a few bottom end Hz. IMO, the cabinets actually deteriorate the sound quality. I'd probably spend the extra dough to buy the AN J's before the Studio 100's. Those are a better speaker. And if you like the J's, you'll love the E's...but get ready ot open your wallet.
Paradigm makes good speakers in the sub $1500 market. I think the $2000 plus market is where Audio Note's good speakers begin.

P.S. While I own Paradigm speakers I'm not a huge fan of them per se, they were just the best speakers I could afford at the time, and much of that had to do with dealer's willingness to negotiate...oh and I bought them in Alberta, Canada way cheaper than they sell in the US. I expect to sell them all soon as I slowly build my own. Got to move into my new house first though.

[RGA]

Firstly, Using the NRC facility has nothing to do with loudspeakers. Anyone can slot time to use the facility to measure and test their products. So what? It's an advertising gimmick for these companies and Harmen the multi billion dollar corporation likes to advertise - it sure beats using quality cabinets and parts.

Speakers like the Studio series sound a lot like the Monitor series - like it or not they sound VERY much a like and you can take the Energy which also sound very much alike. The fact that these companies are using a research facility is fine - most speaker companies use research of some sort...the proof is in the sound. So I ask you to simply compare the two. It isn't very hard. The fact that Audio Note is smaller and growing very rapidly, does not mean they are worse. This logic would mean that Bose makes the best speakers because they are the biggest.

There are a lot of problems in my view with the entire audio industry. When people make assumptions about tube amplifiers or SETs for instance are completely shatterred when you hear the systems. But no one bothers to listen to systems - they are pre-sold by magazine reviews, advertising and dealers. Terry at Soundhounds has been into audio for 30 years and owns over 10,000-LPs. He said he hates selling Audio Gear. People treat him like a used car salesman. No one asks these guys who hear most ALL gear because they go to the shows every year. When you ask them what they own they will show you and become interested again that someone actually wants a musical system not be the guy on the block that owns the famous name brand to impress their friends. This does not and I stress mean the speakers from B&W and Paradigm are bad. I will post later today several reviews and have positive things to say about some of their speakers and some negative things to say about some others...I will be posting a negative review of an Audio Note speaker as well.

Now Soundhounds carries Paradigm and the Reference line and B&W among some other big names. Reviewers often give them praise too. Ask them what THEY own after all those years of gear coming through. And I can gaurantee it won't be something that went through the NRC. This doesn't mean they're bad speakers necessarily - I would recommend the B&W 604S3 as a very good $2,000.00Cdn speaker. And certainly I understand that the Paradigm Studio 100V2(The V3 at $700.00 more is stupid IMO) is in this same class and offers the same kind of sound - which you choose is up to you of course.

To say the K appropriately positioned is limited by genre is ridiculous. Using Delerium's Silence trance track you will get hard hitting bass and dynamics at loud levels. Few standmounts better it and Paradigm's don't. And it's game over on acoustic instruments especially the piano - this instrument is one of the hardest along with voices to do correctly.

It is important to listen to both in the same room with the same appropriate gear and LISTEN to music. WHile it is true that AN is more at home with classical, jazz, vocals and Acoustic music - that perception that Paradigm or B&W is better at rock is nonsense. There isn't a Paradigm speaker at any price that can hit the E for bass depth - but more importantly they don't have the low level detail - something lacking in most speakers - and something I don't notice myself because quite frankly I have not heard AN until a couple years ago.

By all means continue to buy and be happy with Paradigm or B&W. I offerred a passionate suggestion for an alternate brand that some when looking would walk right by because they're plain looking and don't have an immediately recognizable name.

It's just an opinion after all - feel free to ignore it - most probably will.

[BillB]

Guys...RELAX! I was simply stating my opinion as well on the Paradigm 100's. They are the best speaker I've ever owned and have ever heard at the price point. Other speakers I've owned (admittedly limited in 8 years):

NHT SuperOne
NHT SuperTwo
B&W DM601s2
Infinity Ref 3
Infinity Sterling Series ??
Bose 201
Vienna Acoustics Mozart
Vienna Acoustics Haydn

Others I've auditioned that were similarly priced to the 100's:

Energy
B&W 600 Series
NHT
Totem
Monitor Audio
Mirage
Sonus Faber

Given those two sets of experience I still stand by that statement. Could that change in another 8 years?? Sure.

To say the K appropriately positioned is limited by genre is ridiculous

RGA, please read my post carefully, I was speaking to my experience with my Mozarts as being genre-limited.

Again, back to the original question. As long as your Rogue 88 amplifiers are normal, well designed unit they'll have plenty of juice for a pair of 100's.

Bill

[kexodusc]

To say the K appropriately positioned is limited by genre is ridiculous. Using Delerium's Silence trance track you will get hard hitting bass and dynamics at loud levels. Few standmounts better it and Paradigm's don't.

Be careful here RGA, you cannot, CANNOT say that the K's are not bettered by any standmount speakers Paradigm offers. You cannot even definitevely say they are not bettered by the Studio 20's or 40's. At the very most you can say you liked their sonic characteristics better. Even you have to admit that it is possible that the shape of some people's ears or some other common, reasonable factor would provide for different perceptions of these two speakers across a sample population. That is indisputable fact. There are many people who have listened to the K's and decided against them for whatever reason. Even you won't suggest that everyone who listens to Audio Note, buys an Audio Note, no matter how big a fanboy you are. Some have even chosen Paradigm because they preferred their sound for music. (subjective opinion, but every bit as valid as yours or anyone else's) Not that the Paradigm's are universally superior, but to some listeners, perhaps many, they are.

It is important to listen to both in the same room with the same appropriate gear and LISTEN to music. WHile it is true that AN is more at home with classical, jazz, vocals and Acoustic music - that perception that Paradigm or B&W is better at rock is nonsense.

Your obviously biased statements contradict themselves. How can you say on one hand the K is not genre limited, and then in the same breath state that certain genres reveal strengths. If they are "more" at home, "more" at home with these genres than what? Please make up your mind. Your willingness to use two sides of the issue in your argument damages its credibility.

For what it's worth, I found the extremes of classical music to reveal the K's weaknesses. Rock music is usually less demanding because there's so much crappy distortion, even cheap speakers can do that well. The J's and E's are a far better speaker than the K's. The K's are good, but at $1200-$1500 you can easily do better. IMO, Audio Note could abondon those price ranges and stick with the more expensive, "higher - end" gear where they do offer (to my discriminating musically inclined ears) a more comparative value to similarly priced speakers.

[Geoffcin]

This was the new members post;

"I have juct picked up a pair of Rogue 88 and i plan to buy a pair of Paradigm reference studio 100 v.3. The suitable amplifier power range for 100 v.3 is 15-350 watts and
the Rogue 88 only rated at 70wpc. Since i have two Rogue 88 so i can have bi-amp set up
,will a pair of rogue 88 have enough power the drive a pair of 100 v.3? Are they match? Any advice?

Please help"


He's asking about whether he's got enough power to DRIVE his speakers, and gets the old AN treatment.


This is not the first time a newbie has posted about speakers and gotten this bombardment.

Here's how we can solve this;

You can open a thread on the good/bad points of AN speakers, and happily trade multipage posts with each other.

Or;

I will delete these off topic posts the next time I see one.

I'm sorry, but it seems that's the only way to keep from getting the posts hijacked.

[RGA]

Firstly, the person has not bought the 100V3 - there is nothing off-topic about it. Deleting such a post would be rifdiculous even if threads are hijacked. It is on the topic of stereo equipment and on speakers. This is an alternate option and this poster won't have a problem driving said speakers.

[Woochifer]

If you're using amp separates and biamping the speakers, those Paradigms should present no trouble whatsoever. The Studio 100's sensitivity rating is 88 db anecholic (91 db in room), which is pretty much the same as the other Studio series models. This means that in a typical room with a listening position about six to eight feet away from the speakers, those speakers will push sound levels in the low to mid-80 db range with just ONE watt of power. That decibel level is on the high side of normal listening levels, and if you want to drive the speakers to even the edge of intolerably loud, going past 90 db will require less than TEN watts. Only if you intend to go past 100 db (which can cause hearing damage) will you need anything more powerful than what you're using.

I just looked up the Rogues and those are tube amps, and at my local Paradigm dealer I've seen the Studio 100s hooked up to Conrad-Johnson tube amps that have even less wattage than your model. I haven't heard them yet, so I can't comment on how that combo fares; but I did listen to a pair of Studio 20 v.3s hooked up to a 65 wpc Arcam amp, and that amp was fine even at very loud levels.

The Studio 100s have more variation in the impedance than other models in the Studio series, but an amp's ability to handle that kind of load doesn't always have to do with the wattage rating per se. The Paradigm Studio series is generally very easy to drive and doesn't present a problematic load for any of the amps I've tried.

If you're really concerned, then either bring your amps to the dealer or borrow the Studio 100s and put the speaker/amp combo through the motions using some demanding material. If you can run them just slightly higher than your normal tolerable listening level without detecting any kind of breakup, audible distotion, or other changes in the overall tonal quality, then I'd say you're fine.

[ToddB]

Other speakers I've owned:

NHT SuperOne
NHT SuperTwo
B&W DM601s2
Infinity Ref 3
Infinity Sterling Series ??
Bose 201
Vienna Acoustics Mozart
Vienna Acoustics Haydn

This reads like one of those word games where you try to figure out which item doesn't match the others. I'm pretty sure my first guess is right.

[kexodusc]

This reads like one of those word games where you try to figure out which item doesn't match the others. I'm pretty sure my first guess is right.

The real question is which order did he purchase them in?

[BillB]

The real question is which order did he purchase them in?

Ahh...now if you can figure that one out...and which ones I might still own???

I'm not afraid to admit what I've owned...I've learned a lot along the way.

Bill