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  1. #1
    RGA
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    Couple of "off the beaten track" serial killer movies for you to see

    Silence of the Lambs is usually the first one most think of when serial killer movies crop up but I've seen one recently and bought one I had seen before that may have been overlooked.

    The first is an HBO special called Citizen X based on a true story of a Russian serial killer in Soviet Russia. The film is focused on a forensics expert(Stephen Rea) who has been put in charge of an investigation when several children turn up dead. The movie is about the difficulties Rea goes through just to get government support (as one bureaucrat notes "We don''t have serial killers in Russia - that is a Western Phenomenon.") Rea is trying to get help from experts in the FBI but battles with the Russian Elite to admit that there is a child killer on the loose. The film has depth as we get to know both the detective and the serial killer to haunting depths and the sense of frustration being imposed by a government trying to save face than save children.

    The Film Stars Stephen Rea and Donald Sutherland and is thoroughly enjoyable.


    The other film is Atom Egoyan's Felicia's Journey starring Bob Hoskins - My choice for best actor in 1999 - typical of Egoyan's films, character is placed above plot - and we get a wholly realized serial killer as well as Felicia(outstanding performance from Elaine Cassidy) who has the misfortune to meet Joseph Hilditch(Hoskins). The Hoskins character is more believeable than the Fun but shallow Hannibal Lecter.

    There is a slow boiling uneasiness about Hoskins and an Oedipus psychology intertwined like a curtling of the milk of his twisted mind. Both actors are a treat as their lives are pitiable - the performances are bang on like a well constructed and musical dance. It's intelligent - only a slight contrivance toward the end crops up but can be forgiven in lieu of its plausability. IMO this is a vastly superior film to Silence of the Lambs - Felicia's Journey is more believable, more intricate, smarter, and yes even better acted than Silence. It is also an eerily creepy film - which frees itself from melodrama and falls into the modern tragedy camp. This was one of the best films of the 1990's - arguably along with Citizen X that if you like this subject matter are some to rent.

    Most remember The Sweet Hereafter and Exotica as Egoyan's best films, but Felicia's Journey is right there and I like this one best.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Silence of the Lambs is usually the first one most think of when serial killer movies crop up but I've seen one recently and bought one I had seen before that may have been overlooked.

    The first is an HBO special called Citizen X based on a true story of a Russian serial killer in Soviet Russia. The film is focused on a forensics expert(Stephen Rea) who has been put in charge of an investigation when several children turn up dead. The movie is about the difficulties Rea goes through just to get government support (as one bureaucrat notes "We don''t have serial killers in Russia - that is a Western Phenomenon.") Rea is trying to get help from experts in the FBI but battles with the Russian Elite to admit that there is a child killer on the loose. The film has depth as we get to know both the detective and the serial killer to haunting depths and the sense of frustration being imposed by a government trying to save face than save children.

    The Film Stars Stephen Rea and Donald Sutherland and is thoroughly enjoyable.


    The other film is Atom Egoyan's Felicia's Journey starring Bob Hoskins - My choice for best actor in 1999 - typical of Egoyan's films, character is placed above plot - and we get a wholly realized serial killer as well as Felicia(outstanding performance from Elaine Cassidy) who has the misfortune to meet Joseph Hilditch(Hoskins). The Hoskins character is more believeable than the Fun but shallow Hannibal Lecter.

    There is a slow boiling uneasiness about Hoskins and an Oedipus psychology intertwined like a curtling of the milk of his twisted mind. Both actors are a treat as their lives are pitiable - the performances are bang on like a well constructed and musical dance. It's intelligent - only a slight contrivance toward the end crops up but can be forgiven in lieu of its plausability. IMO this is a vastly superior film to Silence of the Lambs - Felicia's Journey is more believable, more intricate, smarter, and yes even better acted than Silence. It is also an eerily creepy film - which frees itself from melodrama and falls into the modern tragedy camp. This was one of the best films of the 1990's - arguably along with Citizen X that if you like this subject matter are some to rent.

    Most remember The Sweet Hereafter and Exotica as Egoyan's best films, but Felicia's Journey is right there and I like this one best.
    Oh, what, you mean no mention of Michael Myers, Fred Kreuger, Jason Voorhees or Pinhead in your roundup of serial killers to be considered? LOL. J/K.

  3. #3
    RGA
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    The first Halloween was excellent and I enjoyed the first Nightmare on Elm Street. The Jason movies and the Hellraiser's you can trash compact - but that wouldn't kill them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    The first Halloween was excellent and I enjoyed the first Nightmare on Elm Street. The Jason movies and the Hellraiser's you can trash compact - but that wouldn't kill them.
    Agreed about Halloween; in my opinion, the best example of the genre ever made...and even moreso with Carpenter's classic score. One of the defining horror/thrillers IN THE HISTORY OF CINEMA, no matter what anyone says. I have the Nightmare box set, and I enjoy just about every one of them....and, unlike yourself, I love the Friday the 13ths....waiting for that box collection to arrive this fall, with all eight Paramount owned films, which will be called "Friday the 13th -- From Crystal Lake to Manhattan."

  5. #5
    Can a crooner get a gig? dean_martin's Avatar
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    Have you seen American Psycho? Does it fit in the serial killer genre? I've only caught parts of it on HBO or Showtime - can't remember which. Just wondering if it would be a decent rental.

  6. #6
    RGA
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    I should not call them Just killer movies - both are more psychological and Felicia's Journey is a bit arty. Which is why I try to contrast them from Hollywood standard fair.

    Halloween is a classic - For a long while it was in my top 100 films of all time.

    Horror/thriller's still in my top 100 include: The Exorcist, Dawn of the Dead(1978), Jaws, Felicia's Journey.

    Top 13 for Halloween in no order.

    1 Dawn of the Dead (1978)
    2 Halloween
    3 The Exorcist
    4 Night of the Living Dead (1968)
    5 The Thing (1982)
    6 Scarecrows (1988)
    7 Arachnophobia
    8 A Nightmare on Elm Street
    9 The Shining
    10 Nosferatu: The Vampyre (1979)
    11 An American Werewolf in London
    12 Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1978) heck of a couple of years for sci-fi/horror
    13 Poltergeist

    Hon mention - Felicia's Journey, Silence of the Lambs, Jaws, The Cell, Scream, The Omen, Psycho, The Changeling, Return of the Living Dead, Fright Night, The Howling, The Terminator, Alien, Aliens. --- Jacob's Ladder.

  7. #7
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    I was going to mention The Cell. Completely under-rated serial killer movie.

    Also, Hitcher and Manhunter, two of my favourites. Rutger Hauer was beyond in Hitcher.

    I don't get why everyone liked Arachnaphobia so much. I liked it, but there were funnier horror films (more horrific comedies?). Check out Eight-Legged Freaks, for example.
    Eschew fascism.
    Truth Will Out.
    Quote Originally Posted by stevef22
    you guys are crackheads.
    I remain,
    Peter aka Dusty Chalk

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I should not call them Just killer movies - both are more psychological and Felicia's Journey is a bit arty. Which is why I try to contrast them from Hollywood standard fair.

    Halloween is a classic - For a long while it was in my top 100 films of all time.

    Horror/thriller's still in my top 100 include: The Exorcist, Dawn of the Dead(1978), Jaws, Felicia's Journey.

    Top 13 for Halloween in no order.

    1 Dawn of the Dead (1978)
    2 Halloween
    3 The Exorcist
    4 Night of the Living Dead (1968)
    5 The Thing (1982)
    6 Scarecrows (1988)
    7 Arachnophobia
    8 A Nightmare on Elm Street
    9 The Shining
    10 Nosferatu: The Vampyre (1979)
    11 An American Werewolf in London
    12 Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1978) heck of a couple of years for sci-fi/horror
    13 Poltergeist

    Hon mention - Felicia's Journey, Silence of the Lambs, Jaws, The Cell, Scream, The Omen, Psycho, The Changeling, Return of the Living Dead, Fright Night, The Howling, The Terminator, Alien, Aliens. --- Jacob's Ladder.
    Each and every year I have a huge get together at my place and do a Halloween horror movie marathon, and the original Halloween MUST start off the night, no matter what. I am in agreement with most of the films on your list; I am right there with you on Poltergeist, Nightmare, Shining (one of Kubrick's best works), John Carpenter's The Thing (AWESOME horror flick and STILL one of the goriest --- have Universal's Collector's Edition DVD), The Exorcist (just almost my favorite film and sounds awesome in Dolby Digital EX)....and perhaps Night of the Living Dead. I enjoyed the remake of Dawn of the Dead better than the original, however.

    Some other titles I show during All Hallows Eve include Halloween II, Exorcist III, Phantasm, the Amityville Horror, perhaps Halloween III, and Im right there with ya on Jaws...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Chalk
    I was going to mention The Cell. Completely under-rated serial killer movie.

    Also, Hitcher and Manhunter, two of my favourites. Rutger Hauer was beyond in Hitcher.

    I don't get why everyone liked Arachnaphobia so much. I liked it, but there were funnier horror films (more horrific comedies?). Check out Eight-Legged Freaks, for example.

    TOTALLY agree.......I LOVED the Hitcher from the moment HBO showed it years ago.....had the VHS copy taped from HBO, and had an ex-girlfriend of mine I was seeing in Vegas (what a piece of ass; her sisters were strippers there) find a copy for me in some video store in Vegas on DVD.....and she found it! It was hard to find at the time. The film is VERY underrated, and is great. Hauer is CREEPY and perfect in that role as the mysterious and deranged John Ryder; I didnt see part II.

  10. #10
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    There was a Part II?
    Eschew fascism.
    Truth Will Out.
    Quote Originally Posted by stevef22
    you guys are crackheads.
    I remain,
    Peter aka Dusty Chalk

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Chalk
    There was a Part II?
    Yeah, Dusty, you believe that? There WAS a part II and it AGAIN starred C THOMAS HOWEL in the role of Jim Halsey....he plays the same character, but Rutger Hauer isnt in it. It was a direct to video release.

  12. #12
    RGA
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    If you have not seen Scarecrows (1988) it's a slasher flick worth checking out. It has elements of Halloween type jumps - the acting and plot are rather weak - but it worked for me.

    The Original Dawn of the Dead was not really a horror film - but social commentary. I actually think its the best film on m list as a film. The print of it is rather poor and it seemingly looks like a cheap porno film stock. Though I liked the re-make quite a bit, it lost a lot of the vision and commentary that was rich in the original. I liked the cameos of the original Dawn in the re-make. In the new one the girls is putting on make-up and checking herself out and the sign above the mirror says Gaylen Ross who was the woman in the original, Ken Foreee was on the tube saying the famous "When there's no more room in hell the dead will walk the earth" etc.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    If you have not seen Scarecrows (1988) it's a slasher flick worth checking out. It has elements of Halloween type jumps - the acting and plot are rather weak - but it worked for me.

    The Original Dawn of the Dead was not really a horror film - but social commentary. I actually think its the best film on m list as a film. The print of it is rather poor and it seemingly looks like a cheap porno film stock. Though I liked the re-make quite a bit, it lost a lot of the vision and commentary that was rich in the original. I liked the cameos of the original Dawn in the re-make. In the new one the girls is putting on make-up and checking herself out and the sign above the mirror says Gaylen Ross who was the woman in the original, Ken Foreee was on the tube saying the famous "When there's no more room in hell the dead will walk the earth" etc.
    I know the original Dawn was a social statement of the time rather than full on horror cinema; actually, with regard to your comment about the condition of the original's print quality, I have to disagree in terms of Anchor Bay's recently released DTS version of this film.....have you seen it? I own it, and it looks absolutely STUNNING for the age of the film. Anchor Bay presented the film in its 1:81 widescreen version, and the print is absolutely pristine....no scratches, dust, hair marks and bright colors.

  14. #14
    RGA
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    I had the anchor bay Suped up edition Laser-disc. I have not bought it on DVD because a boxed set was supposed to come out this summer - so I figured I would wait as I recorded the Laser disc to Tap just before the LD player died. So I have around 40 Laserdisc and no player - and it's not worth buying a new player just for 40 movies.

    But if I wait long enough maybe there will be an LD revolution like turntables and people will seek them out - after all Laserdisc was analog but just a digital pick-up - so maybe the turntable freakls will discover this and seek out LD Doubtful but ya never know.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I had the anchor bay Suped up edition Laser-disc. I have not bought it on DVD because a boxed set was supposed to come out this summer - so I figured I would wait as I recorded the Laser disc to Tap just before the LD player died. So I have around 40 Laserdisc and no player - and it's not worth buying a new player just for 40 movies.

    But if I wait long enough maybe there will be an LD revolution like turntables and people will seek them out - after all Laserdisc was analog but just a digital pick-up - so maybe the turntable freakls will discover this and seek out LD Doubtful but ya never know.
    Ahhh-ha.....well, yeah, I read about that four disc set that is coming out for Halloween from Anchor Bay; I do not like the first Dawn of the Dead at all, really, and only own this DTS Anchor Bay DiviMax DVD because me and my better half saw the remake in theaters and loved it, so we figured we would chip in together and buy the original, and now its in my collection.....so I am not going to buy that four disc set when it comes out. But the condition of this remastered DiviMax Dawn of the Dead is really, really stunning, RGA....Im not kidding. It rivals some modern DVD releases. The audio, on the other hand, is a travesty....this DTS track sucks giant hairy monkey turds. Awful sound on the Anchor Bay DTS release of Dawn.

  16. #16
    RGA
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    Well Dawn of the dead was filmed in Mono - so I'm not sure how they could possibly make a good DTS version out of that.

    It's too bad you didn't like it. I saw it reasonably close to releasein the early to mid 1980's - by today's standards the visuals are simply totally outclassed. At the Time Dawn was considered the most gory film of all time. It had actual themes more than your average zombies eat people. The zombies reflected consumers when shopping malls were really becoming American institution.

    The problem is that while the film has a lot of rich themes - it didn't have the hollywood slickness even then - that would let hold up in that regard. Plus the first 20 minues were poorly acted. Romero really only had the 4 main characters of any acting talent - and only Ken Foree(Black guy) has made any kind of successful career. Basically the film is dated.

    Looking at a film like A Clockwork Orange that film still looks curiously futuristic despite being made several years before Dawn of the Dead. But that's the way the budget bounces.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Well Dawn of the dead was filmed in Mono - so I'm not sure how they could possibly make a good DTS version out of that.

    It's too bad you didn't like it. I saw it reasonably close to releasein the early to mid 1980's - by today's standards the visuals are simply totally outclassed. At the Time Dawn was considered the most gory film of all time. It had actual themes more than your average zombies eat people. The zombies reflected consumers when shopping malls were really becoming American institution.

    The problem is that while the film has a lot of rich themes - it didn't have the hollywood slickness even then - that would let hold up in that regard. Plus the first 20 minues were poorly acted. Romero really only had the 4 main characters of any acting talent - and only Ken Foree(Black guy) has made any kind of successful career. Basically the film is dated.

    Looking at a film like A Clockwork Orange that film still looks curiously futuristic despite being made several years before Dawn of the Dead. But that's the way the budget bounces.
    True. And agreed, Clockwork Orange still DOES have a curious "modern" and/or futuristic feel to it even though it is one of Kubrick's most dated works. Man, did that film stand the test of time.

    As for Dawn, the black guy role you mention from the original (Ken Foree) had been replaced by Ving Rhames, who plays a cop in the remake; and he is awesome in it.

  18. #18
    RGA
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    I don't always agree with bert but his review of the Dawn of the Dead 2004 versus the original is to me anyway bang on. http://www.suntimes.com/ebert/ebert_...03/031902.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I don't always agree with bert but his review of the Dawn of the Dead 2004 versus the original is to me anyway bang on. http://www.suntimes.com/ebert/ebert_...03/031902.html
    Interesting. You know something else I remembered with regard to comparing the original with the remake, and my girlfriend brought it up to me? In the original, it was hinted that the zombies returned to the mall out of familiarity from when they were human....in the remake, it seemed as though the mall was simply a place to go for the zombies out of sheer convenience....and Bert said something along those lines too.

  20. #20
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    It's too bad his review only goes back to 85 because the original review he wrote for the original was hilarious - one of the best reviews of a film I've read. Yes the message in the original is that consumerism is so powerful in the psyche of North America that even in DEATH shopping is on the mind - until it gets blown out.

    The red neck mentaility is portrayed and Ebert noted that at the beginning the Zombies are the enemy but towards the end they are actually rather pitiable - and oit is the gang that comes to the mall that are the real villains - Ebert noted that the survivors were the ones fighting over the bones(the mall). There are a great many things in Dawn that made me laugh - that is why I really don't think the film is a horror movie - it is on the surface. But consider that the four survivors when they secure the mall. They are basiclaly living a pseudo American Dream - They have everything "everything you need right at your fingertips" and yet that didn't make them happy - human relationships ---- ahh that is what was taken away from them - they have all the material possessions of the mall.

    Basically the original was more about ideas, the original Night of the Living dead was an anti-Vietnam film. The new Dawn was a highly entertining horror flick and to be fair I think there is more to that one than even Ebert is giving credit for. They're attempting to bring together different groups of people to re-build society - unfortunately it seems like a stretch because I felt the new one was a bit rushed(current attention spans??) - another 40 minuites and more character development may have helped.

    In fact that rushing Carpenter discussed on the Laser disc running commentary of Halloween. He said that one scene where Jamie Lee Curtis is walking up the street to the house Michaee is in ran for 6 minutes. In the 1970s people were shouting for Curtis not to go into the house. Today he said he would have to cut the scene at least in half because no one has the patience(or somehting along this line).

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    It's too bad his review only goes back to 85 because the original review he wrote for the original was hilarious - one of the best reviews of a film I've read. Yes the message in the original is that consumerism is so powerful in the psyche of North America that even in DEATH shopping is on the mind - until it gets blown out.

    The red neck mentaility is portrayed and Ebert noted that at the beginning the Zombies are the enemy but towards the end they are actually rather pitiable - and oit is the gang that comes to the mall that are the real villains - Ebert noted that the survivors were the ones fighting over the bones(the mall). There are a great many things in Dawn that made me laugh - that is why I really don't think the film is a horror movie - it is on the surface. But consider that the four survivors when they secure the mall. They are basiclaly living a pseudo American Dream - They have everything "everything you need right at your fingertips" and yet that didn't make them happy - human relationships ---- ahh that is what was taken away from them - they have all the material possessions of the mall.

    Basically the original was more about ideas, the original Night of the Living dead was an anti-Vietnam film. The new Dawn was a highly entertining horror flick and to be fair I think there is more to that one than even Ebert is giving credit for. They're attempting to bring together different groups of people to re-build society - unfortunately it seems like a stretch because I felt the new one was a bit rushed(current attention spans??) - another 40 minuites and more character development may have helped.

    In fact that rushing Carpenter discussed on the Laser disc running commentary of Halloween. He said that one scene where Jamie Lee Curtis is walking up the street to the house Michaee is in ran for 6 minutes. In the 1970s people were shouting for Curtis not to go into the house. Today he said he would have to cut the scene at least in half because no one has the patience(or somehting along this line).
    I agree regarding the whole attention span issue; today's world is completely MTV-paced everything-demanded-in-a-second; motion pictures today are all edited with frantic style, a la Daredevil and X-Men.....the young world today knows nothing about making real movies or what a good movie is or what should be based on actual historical fact....I have argued this till kingdom come with people for the most part who agree with me.....that god forbid Hollywood makes a film about an actual historical event and they do not include some kind of stupid love story backdrop along the lines of Titanic or Pearl Harbor....because the average person today just cant be bothered or sit still in their theater seat for two hours without being bored with actual history of this country....so the editing gets more MTV-like and ridiculous, the pacing is exhausting and we get stupid ****ing love triangles with the likes of Josh Harnett, Ben Affliction and Leo De Crapio.....how sad we are becoming.

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    Agreed - I'm not even against a love story with a historic backdrop - Cabaret is one of the best ever - though not a backdrop of war but the rising Third Reich(I hate capitalizing that - the nazis don't deserve capitals). Shakespeare in Love and the English Patient worked for me - but then they're love stories to start with not tacked on to something supposedly a history.

    I have managed to avoid Pearl Harbour - no doubt Hollywood would probably get it wring historically - few are as pitiful as The Patriot.

    I'm not exactly a fan of this choppy editing that was in Gladiator either - it looks like a poor man's Braveheart and a cheap way out of filming an action sequence properly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Agreed - I'm not even against a love story with a historic backdrop - Cabaret is one of the best ever - though not a backdrop of war but the rising Third Reich(I hate capitalizing that - the nazis don't deserve capitals). Shakespeare in Love and the English Patient worked for me - but then they're love stories to start with not tacked on to something supposedly a history.

    I have managed to avoid Pearl Harbour - no doubt Hollywood would probably get it wring historically - few are as pitiful as The Patriot.

    I'm not exactly a fan of this choppy editing that was in Gladiator either - it looks like a poor man's Braveheart and a cheap way out of filming an action sequence properly.
    Agreed totally. But I must say.....Im a sucker for the films you mention, The Patriot and Gladiator; two of my favorite discs in my library! But the points you make about them are right on the mark.....what was Roland Emerich smoking when he chose to portray what happened with General Cornwalis and the Revolutionary War? How god forsaken inaccurate was THAT film?

    And dont even get me started on Pearl Harbor....its such a pity that SO MUCH audio and video attention was put on the latest DVD version of this pile of crap (as a film itself)....the transfers, both audio and video wise, are gorgeous.....for a piece of motion picture that was terribly done by Michael Bay and his cronies; there was SO MUCH crucial historical information they could have included in this film BUT INSTEAD CHOSE to create a love triangle between Harnett, Affleck and whats her name....is it Beckensale or something? She was hot, thats all I remember....anyway, Bay and Bruckheimer and the rest of those dopes figured the general American public COULD NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM sit through an historic epic dealing with ONLY HISTORY and how so many American boys lost their lives during that raid, and so they created a film that deals with this stupid love story for more than half the running time....there could have been SO MUCH MORE regarding the Japanese attack incuded, just for one example.....or how about when we dropped the bomb on Nagasaki and how the Japanese surrendered on the deck of the USS Missouri, the battleship featured in the film "Under Siege" once the bomb was dropped in retribution for Pearl Harbor.....what happened to all this? Hollywood got its hands on it, is what happened.....to satisfy the popcorn-stuffing assclowns that pack theaters today.

    A much better portrayal, in my opinion, of what happened in the pacific that awful day was Tora! Tora! Tora!

  24. #24
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    Well I avoided Pearl Harbour - If a film is made I would not mind it not being made from the usual American Perspective - so that we get a fuller understanding of what led to the Japanese decision in the first place - American may not like the facts - so we get the love triangle and a miliary target strike imbued with special effects and bloodyness.

    History is made or invented by the winners - and 1940-1960's news media in the US? Man people think CNN and Fox today are lying by omission?

    Tora Tora Tora was entertaining.

    The Patriot was brutal history from start to finish - good sound. But when Mel says to the girl on the beach "May I sit here?" and she answered somehting like "It's a free country - or it soon will be" That was enough to make me groan. And of course Mel only had slaves working becuase they wanted to - let's get the real person - but no we have to make Mel look like a hero. And when they capture English - who kills him in cold blood - of course An American wouldn't do that - so the French do it.

    GROAN. I am not anti-American - Saving Private Ryan is about an American unit but it was done very well. The Patriot outright paints all Brits as monsters - all French one sleazy kind of way and all Americans as heros(who never owned slaves) defending themselves against Brits burning their families alive(arguably this never happened either). And to top it off stupid dialog and using children to intensify the film's propaganda is just bad taste. The Patriot was the worstn film I saw that year - despite having Mel who I like in it. Very good sound though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Well I avoided Pearl Harbour - If a film is made I would not mind it not being made from the usual American Perspective - so that we get a fuller understanding of what led to the Japanese decision in the first place - American may not like the facts - so we get the love triangle and a miliary target strike imbued with special effects and bloodyness.

    History is made or invented by the winners - and 1940-1960's news media in the US? Man people think CNN and Fox today are lying by omission?

    Tora Tora Tora was entertaining.

    The Patriot was brutal history from start to finish - good sound. But when Mel says to the girl on the beach "May I sit here?" and she answered somehting like "It's a free country - or it soon will be" That was enough to make me groan. And of course Mel only had slaves working becuase they wanted to - let's get the real person - but no we have to make Mel look like a hero. And when they capture English - who kills him in cold blood - of course An American wouldn't do that - so the French do it.

    GROAN. I am not anti-American - Saving Private Ryan is about an American unit but it was done very well. The Patriot outright paints all Brits as monsters - all French one sleazy kind of way and all Americans as heros(who never owned slaves) defending themselves against Brits burning their families alive(arguably this never happened either). And to top it off stupid dialog and using children to intensify the film's propaganda is just bad taste. The Patriot was the worstn film I saw that year - despite having Mel who I like in it. Very good sound though.
    Very good points. The Dolby Digital 5.1 mix on the Patriot (if thats what you are referring to with "sound") DVD is excellent; so much so that I never upgraded to Columbia's Superbit version of this film with the DTS track. I heard the DTS definitely improves the Dolby mix, but in my opinion, the Dolby mix fills my room sufficiently with cannons blasting off in the rear channels and gunshots everywhere....they did a good job on this standard fare Dolby 5.1 track.

    You are SO right about the way the French were portrayed and stereotyped in the Patriot via ONE character....it is laughable and insulting, actually. And much of the dialogue in this film JUST WOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN PLACE if it was actually happening in those times....it was ridiculous. Some of the time the characters were talking as if it were modern day conversation; perhaps not as dramatic, but you know what I mean. Thats something that has always pissed me off about Gladiator....I love it, but man....the dialogue sometimes.....would the Romans REALLY have said some of the things they said to each other IN THE WAY THEY SAID THEM back then? I KNOW these films have to entertain audiences in our century, but come on.....there must be a better way of doing this. With regard to the Patriot, what more do ya want from the director of Independence Day, the Day After Tomorrow and Godzilla? You expected historical accuracies?

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