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  1. #1
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    DTS? Dolby this that and another thing?

    Can someone explain the differences to a lay person? DTS? Dolby HD and the other options? DTS NEO? Very confusing.

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    DTS and Dolby are both companies who do encoding for movies and at least with Dolby a few other areas of broadcasting. DTS-MA (MA for Master Audio) & Dolby Tru-HD are found on the Blu-ray format and after decoding are supposed to be the same as the original master soundtrack or sometimes referred to as "lossless" because nothing is lost, it's the same as the original. DTS and Dolby both had 5.1 formats on DVD, sometimes even 6 or 7.1. Each have other sound options like your mention NEO6 but I'd have to look them up to see what all they do. DTS & Dolby both have informative websites.

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    I believe NEO6 is a DTS version of PLXII. It derives 5.1 channels of sound from original two channel input.

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    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    DTS and Dolby are both companies who do encoding for movies and at least with Dolby a few other areas of broadcasting. DTS-MA (MA for Master Audio) & Dolby Tru-HD are found on the Blu-ray format and after decoding are supposed to be the same as the original master soundtrack or sometimes referred to as "lossless" because nothing is lost, it's the same as the original. DTS and Dolby both had 5.1 formats on DVD, sometimes even 6 or 7.1. Each have other sound options like your mention NEO6 but I'd have to look them up to see what all they do. DTS & Dolby both have informative websites.
    Mr. P, Neither Dolby nor DTS encodes anything any more. They sell professional encoders/decoders and that is it.
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    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfalls View Post
    I believe NEO6 is a DTS version of PLXII. It derives 5.1 channels of sound from original two channel input.
    Neo6 actually creates 6 channels from 2.
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    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    Neo6 actually creates 6 channels from 2.
    That would be akin to alchemy, creating gold from lead.

    I'd say "simulates" more channels in order to keep all available channels busy would be a more appropiate description.

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    Don't they still create the encoding/decoding programs or formats, whatever the correct term might be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    Mr. P, Neither Dolby nor DTS encodes anything any more. They sell professional encoders/decoders and that is it.

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    Ok fellas,

    I need some help making my final decision on a receiver. I can get an Onkyo 717 for about $550. Or I can get a Marantz SR5007 for $850. I'll be using the system mainly for watching movies. Which route do you think I should go?

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    The Onkyo is a good buy. I have a 515 and after firmware I still occasionally have to unplug it to reset to get the video to pass again. Even at that I don't think the difference would be worth $300.00. The Marantz is a good receiver just trying to put myself in your shoes to see if I'd spend the extra.

  10. #10
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw View Post
    That would be akin to alchemy, creating gold from lead.

    I'd say "simulates" more channels in order to keep all available channels busy would be a more appropiate description.
    I don't think your analogy is quite correct here. Gold and lead are too different types metals. Your analogy changes one to another, and that is not what Neo6 does. Neo6 takes the phase and frequency of signals already in the left channel, cancels them out of that channel, and steers them to the left side channel. It is not transforming anything from one thing to the next, it is just moving what is already there - thereby creating another channel.

    Creation

    The action or process of bringing something into existence: "job creation".

    Simulate

    Imitate the appearance or character of

    I would say that Neo6 is more like creation than it is an imitation.
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  11. #11
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    The Onkyo is a good buy. I have a 515 and after firmware I still occasionally have to unplug it to reset to get the video to pass again. Even at that I don't think the difference would be worth $300.00. The Marantz is a good receiver just trying to put myself in your shoes to see if I'd spend the extra.
    I agree with this. I don't have the same problem with my Onkyo TX-NR3010 as you do, but the 515 and the 3010 are quite different animals. But I agree, there is nothing in the Marantz compared to the 515 that would warrant a $300 dollar increase.
    Sir Terrence

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  12. #12
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    Don't they still create the encoding/decoding programs or formats, whatever the correct term might be?
    Yes, but that is basically all they do.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    I don't think your analogy is quite correct here. Gold and lead are too different types metals. Your analogy changes one to another, and that is not what Neo6 does. Neo6 takes the phase and frequency of signals already in the left channel, cancels them out of that channel, and steers them to the left side channel. It is not transforming anything from one thing to the next, it is just moving what is already there - thereby creating another channel.

    Creation

    The action or process of bringing something into existence: "job creation".

    Simulate

    Imitate the appearance or character of

    I would say that Neo6 is more like creation than it is an imitation.
    I'll stand by what I said.

    You can't get more than two "real" channels out of two. If you really think you can "create" real multiple channels, you're falling for your industrys own marketing BS.

    Period.

    End of discussion.

    You can fake (or "simulate") more "channels", but you can't create real, discrete, ones. But, yes, it does let people think they are getting "real" multi-channel sound out of a two channel source so they don't feel they wasted their money on all those amps and speakers.
    Last edited by markw; 02-27-2013 at 05:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    Neo6 actually creates 6 channels from 2.
    DUH! Second mistake I've made in my lifetime. A divorce remedied the first. Thanks for correcting the second:-)

    Sit T, after spending 44yrs in this hobby and 12yrs in the industry your assertions ring true to me. I don't always agree with your delivery, but the information makes sense. Some arguments against appear to be for the sake of arguing. With the same points going round and round, I'm getting dizzy. Please! Sombody! Stop the madness!

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    Sorry, the "Stop the Madness" rant is for the "New Setup Doesn't Sound the Way it Should". Got my thread confused. Dam#, third mistake! Better stop while I'm ahead. Does it count if you correct yourself??

  16. #16
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw View Post
    I'll stand by what I said.

    You can't get more than two "real" channels out of two. If you really think you can "create" real multiple channels, you're falling for your industrys own marketing BS.

    Period.

    End of discussion.

    You can fake (or "simulate") more "channels", but you can't create real, discrete, ones. But, yes, it does let people think they are getting "real" multi-channel sound out of a two channel source so they don't feel they wasted their money on all those amps and speakers.
    Not quite the end of discussion because of course you are glossing of necessary detail.

    Mark, you can stick to your point if it makes you feel better. However, if you do a signal analysis of what is happening with both PLII and Neo6, those additional channels are in fact discrete channels. It is not a mirror of what is in the front channels. It is information cancelled out of the front channels and steered to the side channels. Side information is cancelled out of the side channels, and steered to the rear. This is done by bandwidth(high frequencies use one steering speed, mids another, and the bass a much slower speed. If it were nothing more than a simulation, then the same signals would be found in each channels with equal amplitude, a little reverb, and no equalization would be needed. There would also be no effective spread of the sound around you either, as it would sound like all channel stereo. It would sound like a giant ball of mush, and neither of these decoders have that effect.
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  17. #17
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    Well then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

    I've heard Neo* "try" to "create" separate channels from two channel sources and, while it's great for a party mode to get sounds out of all available channels to fill a room, it falls woefully short of "creating", from a two channel source, anything like discrete channels from native, multi-channel DD/DTS sources.

    If you really think it does, well, I guess our standards of what's acceptable "multi-channel" sound differ significantly. But, then again, I'm not a pro in that field. I only know what my ears tell me.

    ...later

    *and DPLIIx

  18. #18
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw View Post
    Well then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
    I am okay with that.

    I've heard Neo* "try" to "create" separate channels from two channel sources and, while it's great for a party mode to get sounds out of all available channels to fill a room, it falls woefully short of "creating", from a two channel source, anything like discrete channels from native, multi-channel DD/DTS sources.
    Neo at least was not designed to sound like DD or DTS. PLII on the other hand can compare very accurately with both, and this I heard for myself at PLII introduction demo at Dolby Labs.

    If you really think it does, well, I guess our standards of what's acceptable "multi-channel" sound differ significantly. But, then again, I'm not a pro in that field. I only know what my ears tell me.

    ...later

    *and DPLIIx
    It is not just your ears. But your room, your setup(are your speaker set up to Dolby, DTS or THX recommendations)), your rooms acoustics, and various other things that can impart differences on what folks hear.
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  19. #19
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    The phase cancellation/extraction thing goes 'way back. I had a DynaQuad adaptor back in the day; it was a passive device without additional amplification for the two rear channels. It did work more or less well depending on the recording. HERE's a Dynaquad explanation & instruction manual.

    Eventually DynaQuad was succeeded by Dolby Pro-Logic, Dolby Pro-Logic II, IIx , etc., which all worked on phase content to my knowledge. Music, films, etc., were stereo sometimes "encoded" especially to make the phase difference extraction more predictable and accurate to the recording engineer's intentions. The Dolby versions added separate amplification for each channel.

    I suppose Neo6 is an extension of the same principle.

  20. #20
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    I remember Dynaquad. ..and SQ and QS 4-channel recordings from the 70's.

    There were actually some recordings "encoded" so there were four intended channels and these did a fair job of creating the effect. Too bad speaker technology wouldn't really allow four decent sized speakers in a most living rooms so most had to live with smaller speakers. They sometimes produced "interesting" effects from unencoded sources in some cases but I would not say they "created" new channels from two.

    And, my VHS-tapes were encoded in "Dolby Surround" which actually "encoded" four channels in a stereo soundtrack and was evntually tweaked to become Dolby Pro Logic and did a pretty fair job of sending these four channels where the engineers wanted them to come from, at least until DVD's and digital soundtracks with 5.1 discrete channels became da schnitz.

    All these were designed to be enjoyed in the average living room without any special contortions. Granted, one could follow certain recommendations to get even more from it, but to require one to design their living space to accomodate a sound system, is what killed quad back in the 70's. Little speakers were unsatisfying, subwoofers were still beyond the horizon, and good sounding tiny, aesthetically pleasing, speakers were not yet plentiful and affordable.

    At one time, automobiles required much more attention (crank the engine, adjust the spark, use a choke, light the headlights with matches, change tires every few miles, suffer no insulation from the weather, etc...) than todays vehicles. If they were to remain so hard to maintain and use, i doubt they would have reached the popularity they share today.

    If modern systems required that rigid devotion to enjoy the effect of multi-channel sound, you betcha Joe Sixpack would jump ship. As it how stands, "real" multi-channel sound can be easily enjoyed, to some extent, in almost every living space without having to have a specifically designed room.

    That's like saying one needs to sit in one chair, in one specific location, with ones head in one particular position, and not move in order to appreciate the effect of something. Aside from some geeks and those into auto-erotic asphyxiation, Joe sixpack ain't gonna buy into that.

    So, if what you're saying is that if I set up my room according to specs you recommend , and acoustically treat it in the way you recommend, I'll be able to hear DTS Neo create six distinct channels from two, i guess I'll just take your word for it 'cause it's never happened in any other environment I've been in and I ain't gonna redo my living environment for something this silly.

    But, it did fill the room with non-objectionable, amorphous sounds that were great for parties.
    Last edited by markw; 03-07-2013 at 05:25 AM.

  21. #21
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    So, if what you're saying is that if I set up my room according to specs you recommend , and acoustically treat it in the way you recommend, I'll be able to hear DTS Neo create six distinct channels from two, i guess I'll just take your word for it 'cause it's never happened in any other environment I've been in and I ain't gonna redo my living environment for something this silly.
    Nope, not what I said. Go back and read post #18 again.
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    I did. I gotta admit you lost me with all your verbose defense of Neo, but it didn't convince me, or anyone else methinks. DTS Neo still doesn't "create" six channels from six no matter how you try to spin it. And that, my friend, was my initial statement.

    I don't know, or care, where you went with it, but I'm still sticking to what I said initially. It DOES create "stuff" fo fill the otherwise unused channels for parties but, for anything near critical listening, nah!

    Simulates multiple channels? Perhaps.

    Creates? No fargin' way. I ain't deaf.
    Last edited by markw; 03-10-2013 at 05:27 PM.

  23. #23
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw View Post
    I did. I gotta admit you lost me with all your verbose defense of Neo, but it didn't convince me, or anyone else methinks. DTS Neo still doesn't "create" six channels from six no matter how you try to spin it. And that, my friend, was my initial statement.
    Oh stop trying to spin and deflect. Post #18 was very clear, and if you just read the $hit instead forcing your opinion down our throats, then you would have got the point. DTS Neo does not create six channels from six, it creates six channels from two.

    I don't know, or care, where you went with it, but I'm still sticking to what I said initially. It DOES create "stuff" fo fill the otherwise unused channels for parties but, for anything near critical listening, nah!
    I already acknowledged that you can stick with your overly simplistic non-technical perspective. That is your right.

    It does not create stuff to fill in otherwise unused channels, those channels didn't exist before decoding. Stuff is a non-precise not technical term with no relationship to this discussion.

    Who said it was for critical listening? Were are you getting this stuff? And thank you for admitting it "creates" whether you want to call it stuff or whatever.

    Simulates multiple channels? Perhaps.

    Creates? No fargin' way. I ain't deaf.
    Here is the problem with your simplistic narrow minded perspective. Each signal in each channel is discrete. The matrix is designed to work that way. That is how it is able to discretely steer signals to specific places around our heads.

    If it were doing nothing more than repeating or simulating, then the effect would break down quickly, sound smeared, and mushy. If it were a mere simulation, then it could not place objects in specific points in space like it can - it would all just be a giant mush of sound.

    Your game of semantics is boring as hell.

    There is no one size fits all with Neo6. There are different codes and DSP's at different price points and performance levels with Neo6 on them. There is Crystal Semiconductor, Motorola and Analog Devices, and each of them use a different code and DSP's for programming Neo6 that will get you different results. There are also custom solutions designed for specific processors(like mine) that can be programmed for greater accuracy, steering speed, more multiband processing(the silicon solutions only use three bands of multiband steering, mine custom software design uses six, no chips here). You could have heard Neo6 on mid priced chipset, that does not have the accuracy or processing abilities that my software based solution has.

    In other words, we could be hearing drastically different implementation of Neo6. That is a fact, not opinion.
    Last edited by Sir Terrence the Terrible; 03-10-2013 at 06:42 PM.
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    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Whatever. ...and a sieve does a great job when you need to bail out a boat.

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    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw View Post
    Whatever. ...and a sieve does a great job when you need to bail out a boat.
    I guess this vapid empty response is all you have, and that is okay. It is hard to draw money from a empty account.
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