Bi-Amping an Arcam 8R and Arcam 9P

[nad_obed]

Need some advice.

I intend to combo my 8r Integrated Amp (50wpc @ 8ohms) to a 9P Power Amp (70wpc @ 8ohms). And I have a power hungry M3Si Mirage, bi-wireable w/ four inputs for each speaker.

I have a couple of concerns.

1. I currently have one pair of internally biwired cables per speaker. Which means which means there is one pair of banana plugs at the amp end and two pairs at the speaker end.
If I follow the feedbacks above, my internally bi-wired cables would only be good either for the tweeter or for the woofer. One pair out of the two at the speaker end will be useless. Is this
correct? If so, then this means, I need to buy another pair of cables for either the low or high input side of the speaker. In such case, I may just shelf and keep my internally bi-wired cables and just buy four new set of cable pairs. Two pairs for the 8R going towards the tweeters and another two pairs for the 9P to the woofers.

2. If I don't follow the above, and still use my internally bi-wired speaker cables, can I simply connect the 8R to the Mirage using the bi-wire cables while the 8R is connected to the 9P via an
interconnect? What is the effect?

Appreciate your kind advice.

Thanks!
Nad

[Mr Peabody]

If I understand you correctly each speaker has 4 terminals for connection, this would give two for the highs and two for the lows per speaker. I would first try regular speaker cables running one set from the 8r to the highs and another set from the 9 amp to the lows. Be sure to remove whatever goes between the two sets of terminals on your speakers, typically a flat metal strip.

The bi-wire cables you have would be for bi-wiring using one amp to drive both sets of terminals. Since you actually have two amps these cables wouldn't help you.

[nad_obed]

If I understand you correctly each speaker has 4 terminals for connection, this would give two for the highs and two for the lows per speaker. I would first try regular speaker cables running one set from the 8r to the highs and another set from the 9 amp to the lows. Be sure to remove whatever goes between the two sets of terminals on your speakers, typically a flat metal strip.

The bi-wire cables you have would be for bi-wiring using one amp to drive both sets of terminals. Since you actually have two amps these cables wouldn't help you.

Thanks Mr. Peabody. I see. So my bi-wire cables would indeed be rendered useless in the case of splitting the pairs of cables between the speakers highs and lows terminals.

But for my 2nd question...what if I just followed through and connected the pre-out of my 8R to the line-in of the 9P as still. And I still use my internally bi-wired cables from the 9P power amp solely and towards into the speakers...would this be less efficient? Rather, would it still work?

[Raj J]

Just a thought,

Since you're using a power amp as well - and trying to bi-amp the mirage speaker along with an integrated amp; how do you intend controling the output level (volume) on the power amp?
Most power amps don't have turning parts/attentuators, thus would require a preamp to control their output levels.

With this config, I really don't see how you are going to control the amps - I would play it safer by acquiring two monoblocks and a separate preamp altogether. Unless the intergrated amp had a pre-out connection, hence it could be used as a preamp in that case.

The other option is to go for a stereo power amp and use a separate preamp. I believe Arcam does have a pre-power combination somewhere in the region of 80 watts or so. I would use this rather than trying to mate an integrated with a power amp - not advisable mate!

To be 100% sure before you blow up anything, I would ask Arcam directly for their advice.
Cheers, RJ

[Poultrygeist]

Bi-amping is a way to avoid the internal passive crossovers of speakers so as to allow them to run full range. Once you bi-pass the internal crossovers something else must still take over the role of crossing them over at the correct frequency. In my case I use an active crossover which is built into my mono-blocks ( Dayton APA150 aka Emotiva BPA-1 ) set at 80hz. I split the signal from my CDP using Y cables and feed each amp the same signal but separately. I usually go through a tube preamp for the bass drivers as it sounds a little more polished but the main drivers I power directly.

[nad_obed]

Just a thought,

Since you're using a power amp as well - and trying to bi-amp the mirage speaker along with an integrated amp; how do you intend controling the output level (volume) on the power amp?
Most power amps don't have turning parts/attentuators, thus would require a preamp to control their output levels.

With this config, I really don't see how you are going to control the amps - I would play it safer by acquiring two monoblocks and a separate preamp altogether. Unless the intergrated amp had a pre-out connection, hence it could be used as a preamp in that case.

The other option is to go for a stereo power amp and use a separate preamp. I believe Arcam does have a pre-power combination somewhere in the region of 80 watts or so. I would use this rather than trying to mate an integrated with a power amp - not advisable mate!

To be 100% sure before you blow up anything, I would ask Arcam directly for their advice.
Cheers, RJ

Hi Raj,

Thanks for the feedback. The Arcam 8R (50wpc) is actually an Integrtaed Amp with a pre-out, which, as we know, can be connected to the Arcam 9P (70wpc) via an interconnect. This connection makes the Arcam 8R as a slave to the 9P where the volume control would rest on the Arcam 8R when connected together.

Going back to my dilemma.

1) The straightforward principle in bi-amping is to connect the Arcam 8R speaker outputs (L/R) to the Mirage Speakers (Highs - L/R terminals) while connecting the Arcam 9P's speaker outputs
to the Mirage Speakers (Lows - L/R terminals). To do this, my existing internally bi-wired cable would be rendered useless and I have to buy additional pairs of speaker cables.

2) I would like to use my existing internally bi-wired cable if possible. Which brings me to the question....what if I just connect my existing pair of internally bi-wired cables (4 terminals input - 8 terminals output) from the Arcam 9P Power Amp directly towards the Mirage Speakers. Theoretically, I should easily be able to control the volume via the Arcam 8R (acting as pre-amp) still. In this configuration, I presumably will skip the option to split the highs (using the Arcam 8R) with the lows (using the Arcam 9P) by relying on the connection between the speakers and the Arcam 9P solely.

Is this ok?

[Poultrygeist]

To benefit from bi-amping the "crossover" has to be addressed and I could be wrong but I kinda doubt the Arcam has an internal crossover control. Using one amp to drive the treble and one for the bass is not true bi-amping. You'll need an external electronic crossover like the Behringer CX2310 or Marchand XM-44.

[nad_obed]

To benefit from bi-amping the "crossover" has to be addressed and I could be wrong but I kinda doubt the Arcam has an internal crossover control. Using one amp to drive the treble and one for the bass is not true bi-amping. You'll need an external electronic crossover like the Behringer CX2310 or Marchand XM-44.

Thanks for the feedbacks so far...testing the waters....only tells me that I need to buy a new set of speaker cables.

[Poultrygeist]

Here's a diagram of bi-amping.


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[nad_obed]

Here's a diagram of bi-amping.


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Thanks for the diagram Poultrygeist. )

[Mr Peabody]

To truly bi-amp you would have to bypass the Mirage internal crossover, most people are not willing to change their speakers unless they plan to keep them, the resell value would be decreased.

If you use your bi-wire cables from the 9R you would be bi-wiring and only benefit from the 9P power. If you used both the 8R and 9P the highs and lows would be driven by separate amps. With just connecting to the 9P your 8R would just be used as a preamp. You'd just have to play with the set up to see if either was a benefit to your sound. With using both 8R & 9P as power you would need some way to balance the two amps if the highs or lows over powered the other. Does the 9P have gain controls?

[nad_obed]

Your illustration just saved me money in buying new pair of cables. This means that :

1) My internally bi-wired speaker cable is already set-up with my
Mirage and Arcam 8R (integrated amp) as bi-wired.(lows and
highs as separated)...with speaker jumpers removed &
disconnected.

2) That I can simply combo the 9P (Power Amp) with the 8R
using the pre-out of the integrated amp. This would increase
the power output of both to 70wpc from 50wpc. And all I need
to do is transfer the bi-wire amp source from the 8R to the 9P
after they are combo'ed.

Thanks.
Nad

[Poultrygeist]

To be honest it's really pretty "iffy" that there's any advantage to bi-wiring. I've tried it in the past when I owned conventional speakers and wasn't sure I could hear any difference.

Bi-amping however offers a huge advantage as the speaker's internal power and sound sucking passive crossover is bi-passed by disconnecting the drivers and wiring them straight to the terminals. It's not difficult if your speaker allows good access and most do. It will not harm the resale value if you're careful to wire them back into the crossover network when it's time to sell them. Even though active ( electronic ) crossovers are an additional expense for bi-amping the benefits are great. You will also need a preamp upstream of the electronic crossover and bi-amps.

I'm currently tri-amping my OB system using a 2a3 tube amp for the two 8 inch treble drivers and two solid state amps each powering it's own 15 inch bass driver. It's easier to do when your speakers are all single driver full rangers without passive crossovers and the solid state amps have their own internal active crossovers. The treble drivers run full range while the bass drivers cross over at 80hz.

[SKMP123]

cordial saludo, para todos ...alguien me puede ayudar en decirme , el amplificador y a su vez controlador velodyne uld 18s4 serie II , cuantos ohmios tiene ... Regards to all ... anyone can help me to tell me, the driver amplifier and turn 18s4 Velodyne ULD Series II, how many ohms is.