Pioneer BDP 120 first impression

[recoveryone]

Under the urging of my fellow AF members (Worf), I am submitting a review of my intro into the Blu Ray medium.

First of all let me list my previous players (DVD) that I have had the pleasure of using over the years:

Pioneer DVD 525
Pioneer Elite DV 45A

Upon opening the box I saw the normal plastic bag of cables (no HDMI Cable) and remote batteries, along with a 1 gig Sandisk USB thumb drive. On the other side of the box was the remote (very long) that could have been down sized for the limited amount of buttons used to operate. The unit is very lightweight (which I don't hold against it) as many units are these days. The shiny black face (plastic) looks good and matches with the rest of my gear. The front panel lights are not overly bright and go without notice during viewing in dark rooms.

Setup was straight forward (connection I used) HDMI, USB in rear and RJ45 via my squeezebox. Powering up is quick (less than 30 sec), and the menu comes up on first time startup. The menu setup is a breeze and and easy to navigate. Really no need to read the manual, unless you are totally new to HT or you are looking to brush up on your French, not much to discover in reading it.

I watched Eagle Eye first and was not all that impressed with the PQ, It was a bit clearer,(Rosario Dawson skin is not as smooth as we may think) but not eye catching, but it did give the look of film. The 2nd flick I put in was Hancock (Hi Def Master) and it was much better PQ very crisp and detailed It reminded me when I went to the Irvine Spectrum (Digital Theater) and saw SW-AOTC.

To compare to my DV 45A I would say they are about even in PQ on DVD's with the edge going to the Blu Ray. The DV 45A is connected via component cables and sound via toslink. Both units are routed through my Pioneer VSX 81TXs and outputted via HDMI to the new Vizio VF550M. The HDMI connection does handle the sound a little better in the area of separation of the channels and my subs did sound a bit tighter in their response to the sound track.

I will have to reserve my full opinion until I purchase a blu ray movie and really see how this new format shines. From the samples clips on the Hancock DVD it should be worlds apart.

[Mr Peabody]

What you notice via HDMI in audio is the HD audio advantage. Dolby Tru-HD and DTS-MA (master audio) are supposed to be equivalent to the master audio wise. And a few have multichannel uncompressed PCM. These should be noticeably better than the compressed sound from standard DVD. You might want to check the Blu-ray disc set up to see what audio track you are playing. Mine seems to automatically go to the highest rez but I'm not sure if that's a Marantz thing or if all player do that. Come to think of it my prior Samsung did not.

You could probably save some room and just take the 45 out of your rack.

[Worf101]

Hey, R-One, good first impressions. You MUST update your review when you get some Blu-Rays. AND most importantly, you're perfectly placed with your set up to give us "side by side" comparisons, same movie on DVD and BluRay for a real world impression of the difference. This is something I couldn't do with my set up but would love to see. Congrats on your new gear, LCD and Blu-Ray player. Please keep us informed of your opinions when you go Blu.

Da Worfster

[nightflier]

Recovery, you've obviously had good experiences with Pioneer, but were there any other reasons you went with a Pioneer BR player over some of the other well-reviewed options (Panasonic, Oppo, Marantz, etc.)?

[recoveryone]

Recovery, you've obviously had good experiences with Pioneer, but were there any other reasons you went with a Pioneer BR player over some of the other well-reviewed options (Panasonic, Oppo, Marantz, etc.)?

I have read a lot of reviews on other brands and the Oppo would be something I would like to try, but it was just not in my budget. The BDP 120 was really an after thought, since I felt the 45A was still giving me top notch PQ. The HDMI connection was the real curiosity factor that lead me to make the purchase. I wanted to see and hear for myself the differences if any. The gear I have, I feel is mid to highend range and I always want to get the most out of it whenever possible.

The Pioneer name/brand has always been on the forefront of laser technology and I am a true believer in matching my gear, not just for looks but in performance too. I have read many of post that some have been disappointed in an item that may not have been the units problem, but the supporting units that its connected to. A manufacturer builds things to certain specs that are consistant throughout all of its products. With that in mind, having matching gear lends itself to yeild a more consistant result. If I had a few more $$ I would have went with either the Oppo or a Pioneer Elite model BD player. And just as I did when DVD came out I brought a entry level unit to see if it was worth the investment. In a few years, I'm sure I will buy another BD player and move this entry one upstairs and get a more advance unit in its place.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I have read a lot of reviews on other brands and the Oppo would be something I would like to try, but it was just not in my budget. The BDP 120 was really an after thought, since I felt the 45A was still giving me top notch PQ. The HDMI connection was the real curiosity factor that lead me to make the purchase. I wanted to see and hear for myself the differences if any. The gear I have, I feel is mid to highend range and I always want to get the most out of it whenever possible.

The Pioneer name/brand has always been on the forefront of laser technology and I am a true believer in matching my gear, not just for looks but in performance too. I have read many of post that some have been disappointed in an item that may not have been the units problem, but the supporting units that its connected to. A manufacturer builds things to certain specs that are consistant throughout all of its products. With that in mind, having matching gear lends itself to yeild a more consistant result. If I had a few more $$ I would have went with either the Oppo or a Pioneer Elite model BD player. And just as I did when DVD came out I brought a entry level unit to see if it was worth the investment. In a few years, I'm sure I will buy another BD player and move this entry one upstairs and get a more advance unit in its place.

I really dig your way of thinking. Your perspective and future upgrade ideas are clear, clean and well thought out. Loaded ma gun, and shot you a greenie for this logical clear way of thinking.

[recoveryone]

Thanks TT for the props,

Tonight was another viewing of some of my better DVD's (IMHO)

First up was Black Hawk Down (Hi Def Master), This movie one of my favorites is one you have to watch closely. The style and texture of the film can cause some to feel the color is off or the transfer was bad. The BDP 120 handle the changing styles of this movie with great ease. In the first 5-10 min this movie is grainy and news reel type look, but as the Gen. steps outside after talking with the arms dealer the PQ is sharp and detailed from there on. Again the sound was the kicker, giving you the feel of knowing "when they are shooting at you" or just close. The scene where the black hawk is flying over the water has always been breath taking, but in this upcoverting to 1080P is breathless. The night time fire fight is worthy of demoing to show off the abilities of this player for night scenes

After watching BHD I just had to pop in U571 and watch the first 5-7 min. PQ still spot on and the DTS (now this is normal DTS) is awesome. The whispers of the Captain and XO are as if they were walking around you in the sub. The Torpedo launch is so crisp and clear as if I push the lever myself. This next part are my wife words, she was upstairs and came down. "I forgot how sounds can move you or make you think the room is moving." The depth charges had a added sharpness along with the boom (more realistic). What I notice that I had to turn down the volume compared to the level I was watching with BHD -15 to -22. I have to assume since these are only DVD's and the BD player is set to output PCM that it is pushing the very limits of the sound track.

I'm having a good time watching some of my old DVD's in this upcoverted1080P, I may wait until Star Trek or Transformers 2 comes out next month to buy a Blu Ray movie. Unless I see something (deep discounted) thats worth a peek at. lol

[recoveryone]

Tonight I watched an old TV series on DVD "Space Above and Beyond" (rare find, it took me years to find the whole series on a decent transfer). IMHO my 45-A did a better job than the BDP120. The 45-A played the DVD in full 16X9 format while the BDP played back in 4:3. The PQ was even and I prefer the audio playback on the 45-A (DD Stereo Surround) played back in DDPLII, the BDP played back in just PCM Stereo. Now I made sure the settings on the BDP was for WS playback, so any ideals why the 4:3 mode on one and not both or vice versa.

[Mr Peabody]

My guess, and only a guess, is that the 120 plays the discs original screen size, you may be able to set what size it outputs but it may not include the conversion modes. Of course, though, if that was the case then why have a selector any way. I would have thought the original 4:3 would have been an overall better picture since to convert to 16:9 would have altered the picture. All of this is assuming on my part that your DVD is 4:3, if not, this is even stranger than I thought.

[recoveryone]

My guess, and only a guess, is that the 120 plays the discs original screen size, you may be able to set what size it outputs but it may not include the conversion modes. Of course, though, if that was the case then why have a selector any way. I would have thought the original 4:3 would have been an overall better picture since to convert to 16:9 would have altered the picture. All of this is assuming on my part that your DVD is 4:3, if not, this is even stranger than I thought.

Both players have the option to output either 16:9 or 4:3. I have them set in 16:9 mode I have always had the the 45-A setup that way and I have BDP 120 setup this way also. Now, I'm just using logic here on this hypothesis, since the BDP 120 is connected via HDMI would that force it to play in the original format, which is 1:35:1 (Full Screen) according to the info on the box set. But then again wouldn't that ratio fill 16:9 if not cropped to fit 4:3?

I don't want anyone to think that I am disappointed in this unit, but I feel these things need to be covered as more of us and our family and friends that use us as their media guru be able to explain why this happens. If there are any other fans of this series, I have another full set that I'm willing to part with. The transfer is not as good as this one I'm viewing, but all the episodes are included.


PS. side note: while I was switching the disc back and forth, I was on the Pioneer web site and checked to see if there were any updates to my unit. Bingo! yes, so I followed the instruction and d/l the file (Zip format) and open it on my computer and copy & paste the name file to the USB drive and stuck it back into the BDP 120. The update was easy and not much interaction was needed from me. I read the notes on the update, not much real info was given:


Ver BP9080400CHANGE HISTORY:- Enhances BD-ROM playability - Improvement to enhance Performance, Playability and FunctionVer BP9052600CHANGE HISTORY:- Enhances BD-ROM playability - Performance improvement

I went from ver. BP9052600 to BP9080400

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Both players have the option to output either 16:9 or 4:3. I have them set in 16:9 mode I have always had the the 45-A setup that way and I have BDP 120 setup this way also. Now, I'm just using logic here on this hypothesis, since the BDP 120 is connected via HDMI would that force it to play in the original format, which is 1:35:1 (Full Screen) according to the info on the box set. But then again wouldn't that ratio fill 16:9 if not cropped to fit 4:3?

I am going to offer a theory. The bluray player is doing 1080p upconversion internally, so when the signal leaves the player, no additional processing is done on it. If you were to switch the player to 480p, and let your television do the upscaling, you can probably get it to fit the screen. I noticed this with my PS3, and my A-35 HD-DVD player on my drum corps videos. The bummer is you have to remember to switch the player back to 1080p when finishing the video. Your pioneer is outputting a 480p signal, and it is being scaled to 1080p via the television, this is why it can fill the screen as it allows for additional processing on the video signal.

[recoveryone]

Good info Sir TT, and it makes sense (too many cooks in the kitchen don't always mean a good meal) The BDP 120 Upscaling, and the Vizio Upscaling = 4:3 view.

[recoveryone]

Well, I broke down and purchased a Blu Ray movie "Serenity", I'm familiar with the movie and have watched it on TV before (Universal HD). First off the PQ was very good and film like. I was most impressed with the dark/shadow scenes and how sharp the PQ remained. The sound was off the chart!!!! this movie played back in DTS-HD according to the jacket cover and what I selected on the menu. My system (VSX 81TX) only shows PCM, but all 5 of the speaker symbols were lit up. The subs were tight with little to no roll off and separation was awesome.

Now for my in home assessment of all this new stuff is that Blu Ray will make it due to the sound tracks alone. But that will only be herald by those that have a decent HT setup. I don't see the everyday person being able to appreciate it using the TV speakers or sound bar. For the WOW factor, I have to say that the PQ from my HD cable box (1080i) signal pops more from the screen than the Blu Ray and that opinion may change when and if I view a animation movie, which have always looked awesome on each new format that has come out. I will try out the BD live later on today, but I'm glued to the TV watching Football.

[Mr Peabody]

If your receiver will decode the Tru HD & DTS-MA you might try setting the 120 player to bitstream internally. This will allow the receiver to decode the signal. If your receiver showed PCM on it's display your BD player was set internally to PCM so the decoding was done in the player and the PCM sent to the receiver. Nothing wrong with that, you might want to compare to see which sounds better. Sometimes the advantage is bitstream if your receiver doesn't do any after decoded processing, which means the levels and settings are not balanced because your receiver's set up won't apply. So obviously you will get better sound with proper levels, delays etc.

[recoveryone]

If your receiver will decode the Tru HD & DTS-MA you might try setting the 120 player to bitstream internally. This will allow the receiver to decode the signal. If your receiver showed PCM on it's display your BD player was set internally to PCM so the decoding was done in the player and the PCM sent to the receiver. Nothing wrong with that, you might want to compare to see which sounds better. Sometimes the advantage is bitstream if your receiver doesn't do any after decoded processing, which means the levels and settings are not balanced because your receiver's set up won't apply. So obviously you will get better sound with proper levels, delays etc.

Thanks P, I found that out this afternoon when I was setting up the BD Live. I just keep learning more each day

Got the BD live setup and running, If this is what its about (Trailers and storing clips) then its NO BIG DEAL. If I was into the Netflick deal, I may opt for a player that supports direct d/l from them. Now I see way it rubs some the wrong way by not having the firmware updates via BD live, it would make for a better reason to hook it up. I have one other question on the BD Live, can you use a larger capacity USB and will that help in d/l times? mine was good (approx 30-45 sec), but as with any disk/storage device the more you put on the slower it gets.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Thanks P, I found that out this afternoon when I was setting up the BD Live. I just keep learning more each day

Got the BD live setup and running, If this is what its about (Trailers and storing clips) then its NO BIG DEAL. If I was into the Netflick deal, I may opt for a player that supports direct d/l from them. Now I see way it rubs some the wrong way by not having the firmware updates via BD live, it would make for a better reason to hook it up. I have one other question on the BD Live, can you use a larger capacity USB and will that help in d/l times? mine was good (approx 30-45 sec), but as with any disk/storage device the more you put on the slower it gets.

Recovery,
There is a pitfall or two with bitstreaming from player to receiver. First, there is no audible benefit to the practice, as most players have the same decoding chips in them the receiver has. Secondly, if you are interested in the extra's on the disc, no audio will be transmitted during bitstreaming, as the player must multiplex the PCM audio of the extra's with the PCM audio in the soundtrack. Bitstreaming interupts this process as there is no PCM conversion in this instance.

[Mr Peabody]

But there could be a larger pit fall with PCM if the player didn't have adequate speaker set up adjustments. Of course, that could be a non-issue if the receiver is capable of applying it's adjustments to PCM.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

But there could be a larger pit fall with PCM if the player didn't have adequate speaker set up adjustments. Of course, that could be a non-issue if the receiver is capable of applying it's adjustments to PCM.

It is very rare these days (as opposed to the early days) that you will not find a player with a decent bass management setup. This is something I would not worry about with newer players.

[recoveryone]

Thanks for the input people, I'm sticking with the PCM setting for now. On another issue, I was watching Desperado (Superbit DVD) and the PQ was better than he BD disk of Serenity. What is the res level of the superbit format? I will be picking up Transformers next Tues when it releases and I'm sure the eye candy will be in full swing. But I was taken back on the PQ of this superbit disk and this is a non-computer (CGI) effects type flick. The scene where Banderos stumbles along the wall bleeding was as clear as if I was watching from across the street. The upcoverting really out did itself on this one. I would like to hear from others that have superbit flicks and had similar results with a BD player.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Thanks for the input people, I'm sticking with the PCM setting for now. On another issue, I was watching Desperado (Superbit DVD) and the PQ was better than he BD disk of Serenity. What is the res level of the superbit format?

Wow, Serenity was a good looking (and sounding) BR disc. Superbit's mastering resolution is 480i. I think what you are seeing is a result of pre-filtering before compression. DVD's are pre-filtered removing quite a bit of grain (detail) before encoding. MPEG encoders have a few problems with grain, often turning it into video noise when decoded. This makes images appear very clean and clear, but removing the grain also removes a lot of detail. [/quote]

I will be picking up Transformers next Tues when it releases and I'm sure the eye candy will be in full swing. But I was taken back on the PQ of this superbit disk and this is a non-computer (CGI) effects type flick. The scene where Banderos stumbles along the wall bleeding was as clear as if I was watching from across the street. The upcoverting really out did itself on this one. I would like to hear from others that have superbit flicks and had similar results with a BD player.

I personally loved superbit disc, and got as many titles as I was interested in. However I have done blu-ray reviews were I had the opportunity to directly compare the superbit disc against it BR counter-part, in real time, with split screen. One such disc was Zorro, and the fifth element. At first it looked like they were neck and neck. Upon close inspection I found the superbit version lacked the color depth and breadth, lacked the fine detail, and had a bit of image smearing as well. It wasn't that obvious at first, but very noticeable as you continued watching.

Be careful of comparing different titles PQ. Sometimes it is in how it was shot(Serenity is full of CGI, and darker image wise), and that makes direct comparisons (unless it is the same title in both formats) pretty difficult to do accurately.

[recoveryone]

I agree on the comparison issue, that is why I made sure that I posted that issue (CGI). I know CGI type films can almost look 3D on a good system, and look razor sharp, but the limited time that superbits came out and limited selection to choose from made Desperado so impressive, it was all natural settings (no Green/blue screen). Serenity is no slouch by any means, but it's my only BD I have to compare at this time. So I will keep that in mind in the future (apples vs apples).

The more films I slide into this player the more its shines along with the viewing of the Vizio. It feels as if it is going through a break-in period and keeps getting better each time I sit down and watch.