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  1. #1
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    How should I set the crossover on my receiver for just 2 main speakers

    Im currently in the process of building a starter home theater system.I have ordered Energy bookshelf speakers along with a Energy subwoofer but for now im using a nice sounding pair of Yamaha NS-6460 with an 8 inch woofer ( frequency response says they go down to 45) and the crossover on my Onkyo receiver adjust from 60 to 150.What I would like to know is what should I set the crossover to or whether it matters at all?

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    Sorry guys but I also wanted to mention that I currently have the crossover setting at 60 and it to sound good

  3. #3
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    I'd say leave them at 60, those speakers wont go much lower anyway and the midrange should stay a little cleaner rather than running them full range.
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  4. #4
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    You don't say what sub you are currently using. However, by normal standards you have the crossover too low. 80Hz is the THX recommended crossover frequency for all but the very largest floor standing speakers.

    The general idea is to give the frequencies to the speaker that reproduces them with the lowest distortion and the least strain on the amp.

    Most quality subs have no problem reproducing up to 80Hz and higher with their drivers and dedicated amps. You say your Yamaha bookshelf speakers are rated to down to 45 Hz. However, that spec is meanlingless without a reference level such as "-3dB's." I could not find any info on that model number. Is it from a HTIB system by any chance?

    Mainy people think that you should crossover the sub at the lowest frequency response level of the main speakers. That is simple not true. The crossover should be made based on many factors including if the main speaker or the sub reproduce that particular frequency the best. For example, lets say your sub plays up to 125Hz at -3dB's and you speaker play down to 40Hz at -3dB's. 40 Hz is not the correct crossover frequency (neither is 125Hz). 80Hz is a good compromise and also frequently commonly chosen for good reasons. Most quality subs reproduce this frequency better than the speakers they are mated with. At this frequency and below, most people cannot audibly determine the location of the sub (thus the sub can be located other than at the front of the room). Another benefit is that it relieves the amp in your receiver from powering the lower frequencies which place a much harder task on the amp.

    The crossover frequency for your new Energy speakers would depend on the particular models you ordered. Most likely it would be 80 or higher. For any crossover higher than 80Hz you might be able to determine the location of the sub and would want it at the front of the room along with your main speakers.

    RR6

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    Currently im not using a sub but I have one on order and the Yamaha speakers arent from any HTIB system that im aware of. Thanx for everything guys!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.G.
    Sorry guys but I also wanted to mention that I currently have the crossover setting at 60 and it to sound good
    Sorry, this statement implies that you currently have a sub. With no sub there would be no reason to set the crossover.

    If you don't tell us specifically which Energy speakers you have on order then we can't give you advice on what crossover frequency to use. That is the purpose of your thread.

    RR6

  7. #7
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    The Energy bookshelf speakers I ordered are the C100s with a 5 and a half inch woofer along with a Energy ESW 8 subwoofer.

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    Without asking any more questions, I'll try to make the possible setup alternatives clear. That said, it really helps if when you ask a question you list all of your equipment. Not knowing which specific Onkyo receiver you have doesn't help. I'm also not clear if you have ordered only two Energy C-100 or 5 of them?

    First of all the Energy ESW-8 sub is mainly designed for surround 5.1 systems. However, it can work OK with a 2.1 stereo setup if that is your intention. You need to read the owner's manual and determine the answer to one very important question. Will the Onkyo receiver play in stereo with the sub active? Mnay of the newer receivers do but some of them play only the two main left and right speakers without the sub in the stereo mode.

    If you in fact will have a 5.1 system and play both movies and music in 5.1 surround sound then the setup is rather simple. Hook up the sub (one of the inputs, either left or right) to the sub pro-out jack on the reciever with a single audio RCA cable. Set the volume on the sub to about 10-12 o'clock as needed and then leave it there. Turn the crossover dial on the sub to the highest setting, all the way clockwise to the right (150Hz). Set the phase toggle switch to the one that gives the most bass at your listening position after all is set up. On the receiver set the crossover to 80Hz, 90Hz or 100Hz, your choice, however, I would try 90Hz as a start. Absolutley no lower than 80Hz. Designate all other speakers, either the two or all five, as "small" in the speaker setup section. You might have to set this manually. Do not under any circumstances set them to "large" even if the auto setup mode might mistakenly choose large. Set the sub as "yes." Be sure to carfully set the 2 or 5 speakers and the sub's volume level in the setup procedure using the sound test tones that cycle thru eaqch speaker. It is a great help if you use a Radio Shack sound level meter, about $40-$50. This meter is far more accurate that the human ear and will get the sound level of all speakers within 0.5 decibles of each other. This is very important for the best and smotthest surround sound. Be sure to get the analog model only, Do not get the digital model! You will now adjust the sub volume if needed in the receiver and not the sub. Also if you later get the center and surround speakers it is best to get all three from the exact same series, Energy C model speakers.

    If you are going 2.1 stereo for now then their are two alternatives. If the receiver will play the sub in the stereo mode then simply setup as above.

    If it does not play the sub in the stereo mode then do this. Hook up the left and right speaker as normal from the receiver speaker A outs. Then hook up the receiver to the sub using speaker wires on the speaker outs from the receiver B speaker outs. Turn on both speaker A and B, the receiver should be running both A and B in parallel and not series, check the manual. Now set the crossover (90Hz) and volume (as needed) on the sub. Set the speakers as small in the receiver and the receiver crossover as 90Hz, and sub at yes. This last method is not the best but the only choice you have in this situation because the Energy sub does not have speaker outs (this is now very common on subs).

    In either case make sure you position the sub at the front of the room, between the left and right speakers or on either side. Preferably not snug in the corner for the cleanest and tightest bass and several inches away from the front wall.

    I know this is very detailed but hope it will help you to achieve the maximum performance from these fine little Energy speakers.

    RR6
    Last edited by RoadRunner6; 03-28-2009 at 09:29 PM.

  9. #9
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    This is perfect. The Onkyo receiver im using is a TX-SR503 7.1. I'll be starting with 2 speakers and a sub and within the next couple of months I will add a center channel and surrounds. I think a 5.1 setup in my bedroom is all I need. Thanx a bunch!

  10. #10
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    You've got a good plan and excellent choices in both speakers and the receiver in your price range. Forget 7.1, 5.1 is just fine.

    For the center channel go with a Energy C-C100 or a C-C50.

    For the surrounds go with two energy C-R100's, C-100's or C-50's.

    Check at Amazon, Audio Advisor or others.

    Good Luck.

    RR6

  11. #11
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    Just what I had in mind ! Thank you for everything!
    Last edited by D.G.; 03-30-2009 at 02:59 PM.

  12. #12
    Forum Regular Kevio's Avatar
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    A couple comments and a question:

    If you can manage it, use a third C100 as a center channel speaker. The C-C100 looks like it will do the job but these center speakers with multiple drivers arranged horizontally are a sub-optimal design from an acoustics perspective.

    The ESW-8 does have terminals for speaker-level connections. Really much better to use the line-level sub-out if that will work for you. If you do need to use the speaker connections, I think you'll experience problems if you try to follow RoadRunner's recipe for that. His recipe for the line-out connection looks delicious so let's hope that works for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    First of all the Energy ESW-8 sub is mainly designed for surround 5.1 systems. However, it can work OK with a 2.1 stereo setup if that is your intention.
    I'm curious to know what's the difference between a music and theater subwoofer. This is the first time I've heard of a distinction.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevio
    A couple comments and a question:

    If you can manage it, use a third C100 as a center channel speaker. The C-C100 looks like it will do the job but these center speakers with multiple drivers arranged horizontally are a sub-optimal design from an acoustics perspective.

    The ESW-8 does have terminals for speaker-level connections. Really much better to use the line-level sub-out if that will work for you. If you do need to use the speaker connections, I think you'll experience problems if you try to follow RoadRunner's recipe for that. His recipe for the line-out connection looks delicious so let's hope that works for you.

    I'm curious to know what's the difference between a music and theater subwoofer. This is the first time I've heard of a distinction.
    Yes, I would have mentioned that to him but the C-100's are sold only in pairs. I in fact in my system I have three identical speakers across the front, LCR (the preferred orientation which very few are aware of ... no center channel speaker over on its side for me when practical but let's not confuse him now with that).

    The Energy ESW-8 has speaker level in connections only and no speaker level out connections Look carefully at the back panel. That is why I made the comments I did. He doesn't need the speaker level connections like I mentioned because he in fact confirmed that he has an AVR receiver with sub output and bass management.

    The fact is that the Energy ESW-8 sub and many other newer subs now do not have both speaker in and out connections, or neither. That is because the large majority of buyers of subs of this class intend to use them in 5.1 or 7.1 HT systems and only need the RCA input. The manufacturer saves a few bucks. If a sub is used in a 2.1 system with no sub managment then the sub should have both in and out speaker level connections for the easiest setup.

    RR6
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  14. #14
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    Got the front Energy C100s and matching sub. I did everything you recommended and couldnt be happier.Thanx! I will be ordering the surrounds and center channel shortly.I never thought of what Kevio said ,sounds interesting but these particular Energys are sold in pairs.Would it be ok to get an extra pair of C100s and use one for a center channel? I would consider that depending on the price of the center channel.The C100s can be found for $99 a pair now .
    Last edited by D.G.; 03-31-2009 at 10:20 AM.

  15. #15
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    Yes that is perfect. All three identical speakers along the front is the very best solution but many times is not practical. If you want you can just set the extra speaker aside. Or you can even setup a 6.1 system using the extra C-100 as the sixth speaker in the middle rear. Normally the rear surrounds go on the side wall just behind the main listening area a foot or two and also up high, like 5-6 feet if possible. Sometimes placing the surrounds on the rear wall is the only practical option.

    Be sure the center C-100 is in the vertical orientation and you do not place it over on its side (that is a no-no).

    For best results keep the C-100's away from the wall at least a foot or two or three (again if practical).

    Enjoy!

  16. #16
    Forum Regular Kevio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    The fact is that the Energy ESW-8 sub and many other newer subs now do not have both speaker in and out connections, or neither. That is because the large majority of buyers of subs of this class intend to use them in 5.1 or 7.1 HT systems and only need the RCA input. The manufacturer saves a few bucks. If a sub is used in a 2.1 system with no sub managment then the sub should have both in and out speaker level connections for the easiest setup.RR6
    I suspect the speaker out terminals, when present, are connected directly to the speaker in terminals. Do you have any evidence that subs with two sets of terminals actually have a speaker-level high-pass between the two? It would be a tricky thing to do that sort of filter correctly.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevio
    I suspect the speaker out terminals, when present, are connected directly to the speaker in terminals. Do you have any evidence that subs with two sets of terminals actually have a speaker-level high-pass between the two? It would be a tricky thing to do that sort of filter correctly.
    Yes, that is exactly what the two sets of speaker connections is for on the back of a sub. It is for 2.1 sytems with the sub active. The crossover dial on the back of the sub and the internal crossover filter on the sub (all subs have this) splits up the incoming full range signal (at the speaker in) from the pre or receiver and then sends the frequencies above the crossover setting on to the left and right speakers via the speaker out connections. The frequencies below the crossover point are sent internally to the sub amp and driver.

    When used in a 5.1 system the crossover setting on the pre/receiver is used instead and the crossover on the sub is bypassed either by the bypass switch on the sub, a specified bypass RCA jack or by setting the crossover dial on the sub to its max point. Thus, most setups never use and simply bypass the sub crossover circuitry. Sorry no evidence needed, this is simply very common basic subwoofer operation 101 stuff. In fact, current sub models used by people like D.G. with a current Pre/AVR with bass managment, need nothing on the back of the sub except a power switch, a single RCA input, a phase switch or dial and maybe a volume dial (for convenience only ... extra controls such as paramertic EQ's are another matter). The lack of a reasonable explanation, in the owner's manuals, of all these dials, jacks and connections on the back of subs by the manufacturer is gross negligence. I remember the poorly written nonsense in the manual of my old Energy Take 5 system sub was a nightmare.

    Some people send the bass below a determined frequency to the sub while still running their main speakers at full range. I feel in all situations with a quality sub this is a mistake.

    RR6
    Last edited by RoadRunner6; 04-01-2009 at 02:35 AM.

  18. #18
    Forum Regular Kevio's Avatar
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    Talk is cheap. I want evidence. I will give greenies (or greenbacks, if necessary) to anyone who posts schematics for a sub with HPF between the input and output speaker terminals.

    RR: Your general points on how to best set up a sub with line-level connections are quite valid and helpful BTW.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevio
    A couple comments and a question:

    If you can manage it, use a third C100 as a center channel speaker. The C-C100 looks like it will do the job but these center speakers with multiple drivers arranged horizontally are a sub-optimal design from an acoustics perspective.

    The ESW-8 does have terminals for speaker-level connections. Really much better to use the line-level sub-out if that will work for you. If you do need to use the speaker connections, I think you'll experience problems if you try to follow RoadRunner's recipe for that. His recipe for the line-out connection looks delicious so let's hope that works for you.

    I'm curious to know what's the difference between a music and theater subwoofer. This is the first time I've heard of a distinction.
    I'm curious about your horizontal center speaker statement. What's the reasoning? Why is vertical better than horizontal? My center is identical in configuration to the mid/high portion of my mains. It has rounded edges and I have it sitting forward of the of the plane of my LCD display, so I don't have to worry edge deflection. It's below the LCD with a carpeted floor, so floor and ceiling reflection isn't a problem. How would my center be better vertical than horizontal?

    Your statement is pretty general. I understand the value of controlled horizontal dispersion with the front speakers, but your statement doesn't take into account spacing. I have my mains set 9' apart. What about horn-loaded speakers? Horn configuration vary in dispersion patterns. Putting a horn with 60/40 vertical orientation on its side would sound totally different.

    With the center channel responsible for a large percentage of what comes from the front, how is a speaker with a single mid/low driver better sonically than the two woofer center's extended frequency response?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfalls
    I'm curious about your horizontal center speaker statement. What's the reasoning? Why is vertical better than horizontal? My center is identical in configuration to the mid/high portion of my mains. It has rounded edges and I have it sitting forward of the of the plane of my LCD display, so I don't have to worry edge deflection. It's below the LCD with a carpeted floor, so floor and ceiling reflection isn't a problem. How would my center be better vertical than horizontal?

    Your statement is pretty general. I understand the value of controlled horizontal dispersion with the front speakers, but your statement doesn't take into account spacing. I have my mains set 9' apart. What about horn-loaded speakers? Horn configuration vary in dispersion patterns. Putting a horn with 60/40 vertical orientation on its side would sound totally different.

    With the center channel responsible for a large percentage of what comes from the front, how is a speaker with a single mid/low driver better sonically than the two woofer center's extended frequency response?
    The perfect setup for HT or multi-channel sound is to have all three speakers across the front be the same identical speaker in the same orientation giving the smoothest sound spread. In your case (9' spread) as in most it is important to always have speakers with an excellent horizontal dispersion pattern.

    Unfortunately this is many times not practical due to the necessity to place the center channel speaker on top of or just below the display on a shelf and usually on its side in order to fit or look good. The usual tweeter plus mid/bass driver arrangement doesn’t work well for a center speaker as the sound axis will be skewed due to the speaker being placed on its side rather than in the normal upright position.

    Thus the d’Appolito configuration was used for center channel speakers. It consists of two mid/bass drivers with a tweeter in between. The problem expereinced with this array is an effect called lobing. It somewhat affects all speakers with separate drivers, however, it is most significant in the dispersion patterns of d’Appolito configured speakers which have the two mid/bass drivers operating in the same frequency range. These speakers off axis tend to sum and cancel each other not the same at different angles. A listener in the center sweet spot seat might hear a flat frequency response, while listeners in the sides seats don't.

    That is why I suggested to him to not place the C-100 speaker on its side. Some might comment that you lose a little power handling ability versus the dual mid/bass driver mentioned above. This is a minor price to pay for the improved sound across the front soundstage for all listeners.

    You asked: " How would my center be better vertical than horizontal?" Of course it would not since it is a center channel designed speaker intended to be palced on its side. In R.G.'s case he is considering using a normally desgined bookshelf configuration and only in this case would you place it vertically. Using the same speaker across the front usually only works for rather small speakers. In my case I have a fairly small condo living room with 3 small Axiom M2 booshelf speakers for LCR which look great and fit in perfectly. They have very high power handling ability matched with a powerful sub and play as loud as my neighbors can stand.

    You also mention: "With the center channel responsible for a large percentage of what comes from the front, how is a speaker with a single mid/low driver better sonically than the two woofer center's extended frequency response?" I somewhat disagree about the center handling the large percentage of the sound. I use my 5.1 system for music as well as movies and all three speakers are very active. The old comment that the center channel handles mostly dialog only is old school in modern movies. I think you might have been confused when you mentioned "extended frquency response" above. They have higher power handling but if they cover the same frequency range the they would have the same response.

    I actually perfer music over a 5.1 configuration versus plain 2 channel stereo. This comment will raise lots of eyebrows here. My comment presumes the 5.1 system is setup very precisely within close tolerances +/- 0.5 decibles output for all speakers using a sound level meter. It must also have perfectly matched timbre/voice speakers all around. I have tested this out many times for myself and others and they all agree on my findings in my setup. The 5.1 sound adds a natural ambience that lends itself to the perceived naturalness of the perfomance environment in most recordings. Those that disagree almost invaribly have mismatched or poorly calibrated systems.

    Hope this clarifies my comments. I in no way pretend to be a speaker design expert but only have learned this from extensive reading from professional sources and my own trial and error.

    RR6

  21. #21
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    Hello! I have a question. I want to consider hooking up a sub to a 2:1 stereo. For equipment I have the Pioneer Spec 1 Preamp and the Spec 2 Power Amp. The power amp has only one set of speaker terminals. The preamp has A and B. The speaker system I have is a Polk Audio and I have 2 subs,a psw 125 and the other is a psw10. Since this equipment was out before subs were in can a sub be hooked up to this equipment?
    Last edited by mimbach; 04-01-2009 at 12:54 PM.

  22. #22
    Forum Regular Kevio's Avatar
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    Than RR, you probably did a better job explaining the center channel problem than I did. In fact I learned that this speker design has a name (d’Appolito). I'd previously heard it called MTM (Midrange, Tweeter, Midrange).

  23. #23
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    Kevio, I might be a little confused and owe an apology if I gave some incorrect info above.

    If you don't mind I'll explain that I'm currently fighting a rather nasty virus bug in my lungs. I also underwent very serious open heart aortic surgey awhile back. I'm not fishing for sympathy just explaning that I'm still experiencing some memory issues (common effect from being connected to the heart/lung bypass pump) mostly from the past.

    My point here is, that now in thinking about my comments on the crossover/high pass part of the circuitry on the powered subs speakers in and out connections I might be fuzzy on this. I believe there are some that only have the low pass filter. I think at one time there was both a low pass and high pass component on many powered subs (before AVR pre/receivers became common) but now I'm not exactly sure my memory isn't playing tricks on me. Maybe someone else can chime in here. When I have more time I'll try to check this out.

    Anyway my comments for D.G. on his new receiver and sub/speakers is definitely correct. Now can anyone tell me what planet this is?

    RR6


    PS Kevio, in looking for somehelp for another poster I found this spec info on a passive sub with a fixed 200Hz crossover and both high and low pass filters.

    SPECIFICATIONS
    Frequency Range .................................................. ............................29 Hz–200 Hz
    Power Handling.......................................... .......................................100 Watts RMS
    Maximum Power .................................................. ......................................200 Watts
    Sensitivity .................................................. ...................................... 88 dB @ 2.83 V
    Impedance .................................................. ...................................Nominal 8 Ohms
    Speaker .................................................. ............................ 12-Inch, Dual Voice Coil
    Crossover Frequency ............................................... 200 Hz with Built-In Crossover
    (Low-Pass Crossover for Internal Speaker)
    (High-Pass Crossover for External Primary Speaker Systems)
    Connections .................................................. ...............................Push-In Terminals
    Enclosure Type .................................................. ................................... Bass Reflex
    Enclosure Finish .................................................. ...............Black Wood Grain Vinyl
    Dimensions (HWD) ......................151/4 ¥ 17 ¥ 16 inches (38.3 ¥ 42.8 ¥ 40.2 cm)
    Weight .................................................. ..............................................26 lb (11.7 kg)

  24. #24
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    Mimbach, welcome to AR Forums. Wow, you have some extremely fine gear in your Pioneer Spec Amp and Pre. I had a friend in Spokane in the 70's who owned them. If my fuzzy memory is correct, don't you connect the amp back thru the pre via RCA jacks and then onto the speakers or am I really hallucinating?

    To answer the question, yes you can definitely hook up the sub. I think I would recommend only using the PSW-125 since it seems to be clearly superior in performance to the PS10 which might tend to create somewhat muddy and unrefined bass.

    The question is exactly how. I would start by calling Polk and seeing if in fact the crossover filter on the sub affects only the sub (low pass filter) or if it also contains a crossover filter that affects the frequencies passed on to the main left and right speakers thru the speakler out connections on the back of the sub (high pass filter.....see my comments just above). You would have to talk to a real technical expert to even get a chance to get a correct answer.

    It would really be helpful if you would list the exact model number of your Polk main speakers. Without this info I would set the sub crossover dial to 80Hz. This allows you to place the sub just about anywhere near the front of the room without being able to detemine its location (desirable).

    If in fact you do have an extra set of RCA outs either on the amp or pre you could hook the left and right into the sub using the RCA input on the sub labeled left and right. I downloaded the Polk manual which I find typically confusing and possibly mistaken. In this configuration you would be running the left and right Polks at full range (not the best option IMO) and the sub below 80Hz.

    If Polk confirms that the sub crossover circuitry affects both the sub and the mains then this is ideal and would send frequncies below 80Hz to the sub and those above 80Hz to the mains using the speaker in and out connectors on the sub.

    Hope this helps and is not too confusing.

    RR6

  25. #25
    Forum Regular Kevio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    I believe there are some that only have the low pass filter. I think at one time there was both a low pass and high pass component on many powered subs (before AVR pre/receivers became common) but now I'm not exactly sure my memory isn't playing tricks on me.
    I think my point has been made. The presence of two sets of speaker terminals does not necessarily mean that there's a HPF built in to the sub for the mains. On powered subs, it is common that there's only a LPF and the speaker ins are connected directly to the speaker outs. Unless you've really done your homework on the sub's capabilities, the best configuration is to run the sub from the line-level sub out from the receive as RR describes in detail above.

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