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  1. #1
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    Interesting Topic - READ! Adele 19 - Hi end audio

    Hi everyone. Many of you no doubt own the Adele 19 cd. It is great music and I highly recommend it. HOWEVER, there is some overly bright high frequency content on this CD and I want everyone else's opinion on this.

    One track that demonstrates this particularly well is track 3 called "Chasing Pavements". This is unfortanate as it is one of the best tracks on this CD.

    So you know where I'm coming from, I have what I would call a budget high end system consisting of the latest NAD and B&W products with decent wire. I have tried swapping in and out speakers, as well as all the electronics with no success in eliminating the unwelcome high frequency brashness on this CD. I've therefore concluded that the content is in fact on the CD and not introduced by my equipment.

    Interestingly, I have noticed that when I swap in a lower quality CD player the harshness is reduced and less unpleasant. Since this CD is semi-marketed as an audiophile recording, it makes me wonder if this CD was intentionally produced to over emphasize the high frequency content so that the music sounds more up front and clean on the typical muddy low fidelity equipment used by most consumers.

    I would like to know from all of you if you concur with my findings regarding this CD and in particular track 3. Also, what are your thoughts on my theory regarding intentional poor production empasizing high frequency content for mass market appeal?

    Thanks. I hope at least a few of you will agree that this is an interesting discussion topic.

    -Jax

  2. #2
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    I had never heard there was intended to be anything special about the sound quality of 19 but I think it is one of my best-sounding CDs. What I listen to is often influenced by sound quality, so 19 gets a little more air time at my house than perhaps its music deserves due to how nice the CD sounds. I like the way Adele's voice is reproduced by my system.

    When it comes to brightness, I control that by hanging cloth in front of the tweeters. I haven't had to do that with 19, though. As for the intent behind the recording and its brightness, if any -- I suspect many people would actually like what audiophiles consider bright. They could cut the treble if necessary, assuming they have a treble control. My system doesn't.

  3. #3
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    You need to keep in mind that when any recording is made in a studio and subsequently mixed down, the recording engineer, producer and artist are listening to it on a system that is probably unique to that studio. There is not one single brand of speakers, amp or any other equipment that is universally used by recording studios.

    There is also the issue of the personal tastes of those people. Some people like a brighter, edgier sound, saying it is more "detailed." Other professionals and artists might prefer a different sound. All of those things are beyond your control.

    In short, within the professional world you're going to have a range of opinions as to what makes the "best" sound and they are going to reach those conclusions using different equipment and speakers.

    Therefore, what sounds "perfect" to the people in the recording studio may be slightly less than perfect for you. It could be because you have a different system than they used, or because you have different preferences, or both.

    Personally, I approach "audiophile" CDs with caution. Sometimes they are good, but at times it is like looking at a painting under a magnifying glass. Interesting, but misses the point of the whole.

    As I've settled into my current system (which I dearly love) I've had a great time rediscovering some of the gems hidden in my collection of ordinary music - a background vocal popping into focus on an old Sam Cooke recording, the New Orleans gospel jazz played by the St. Louis Rivermen, Ella Fitzgerald with only a piano backup, some of the great late 1960s rock recordings by Spirit and Seatrain. With about 40,000 songs in my collection, I've got a lot to explore. While some recordings are better than others, none of it is perfect. But I'll take Louie Jordon's 1950 rather poor mono of "Blue Light Boogie" over Lincoln Mayorga's piano noodling on Sheffield any day of the week. ;-)

  4. #4
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    My conclusion

    Quote Originally Posted by jaxwired
    Hi everyone. Many of you no doubt own the Adele 19 cd. It is great music and I highly recommend it. HOWEVER, there is some overly bright high frequency content on this CD and I want everyone else's opinion on this.
    ...
    -Jax
    On another audio forum there is an "inmate" there tried this experiment:
    1. Rip a CD to WAV format.
    2. Copy the WAV files to MP3 320 kbps
    3. Convert the MP3 to WAV
    4. Listen to the WAVs from step 1 and step 3.
    Guess what? The majority of listeners preferred the step 3 WAV.

    And then there is the pundit at The Absolute Sound who has LP disc cutting equipment and prefers CDs transfered to LP to the originals.

    The two processes share this in common that the CD sound is filtered by them in a way that can only reduce fidelity (more or less). My tentative conclusion is that people often like a bit less, rather than more, high fidelity.

  5. #5
    abNORMal IBSTORMIN's Avatar
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    I was just questioning this myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    The two processes share this in common that the CD sound is filtered by them in a way that can only reduce fidelity (more or less). My tentative conclusion is that people often like a bit less, rather than more, high fidelity.
    And most of us work so hard to try and bring out MORE of the detail through better cables, better cd's, SACD, upgrade this, upgrade that. This week I realized I was really enjoying the sound of a pair of bookshelves and a sub I have in my office. I took the CD I was listening to and put it in my better system. I heard more detail but for some reason did not enjoy it as much! Do we get too critical when there is more detail and more relaxed when there is not? Maybe it's just that I'm gettin older and like the relaxation more. What are others thoughts?

  6. #6
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    IBSTORMIN,

    I love your comments. First of all, there's no doubt that you can get real enjoyment out of mid fi and low fi equipment. In fact, so so recordings are often more enjoyable on mass market equipment since that equipment hides the flaws. Most of America could not care less about accruate reproduction of music. However, and this is a huge however, when you find the right source material on a hi fidelity system there is ectasy that is not even close to achieved with the pleasantly fun low fi music equipment. So while low fi can be pleasantly fun, once you have experienced the spine tingling sensation of great recordings on a truely hi fedilty stereo, you just want more.

    The second thought that your comments provoked in me is something I've been thinking about for some time. I recently read a letter to the editor in the absolute sound from a guy that had been trading up for 30 years and was never satisfied, always chasing the next small improvement. I can relate to this person and I do not want to become this person. It's so easy to get swept up in this persuit of audio nirvana that you can easily forget to enjoy music. I decided awhile back to not be one of those people. I want to buy and listen to music. I've even considered ending my subscription to What Hi Fi since it encourages me in this never ending pursuit of audio equipment. While I love Hi Fi, there's so much myth and snake oil in this hobby, it's ridiculous.

  7. #7
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Many an audiophile has spent serious money to achieve a balance between clarity, detail and harshness. In my opinion the single biggest contributor to a system with lots of detail without harshness is the CD decoder.

    I am a big fan of outboard D to A converters. CD transports wear out, decoders generally do not. Above certain D to A price point, my experience is that the quality of the transport isn't terribly important. This is controversial and not all people agree with me.

    In order to realize the quality sound available from a good decoder, the rest of the system also needs to be of some minimum quality. Once a good decoder is in place, I found cable differences became much more noticeable.

    Of course really good decoders aren't cheap, but many used ones far better than run of the mill CD players are available in the $250 to $1,000 price range. Go see Audiogon, read reviews and pick one. If it turns out you aren't satisfied resale is possible. Assuming you pick a recognized model and pay a reasonable price, you can probably resell it for the same price, so you're out only the shipping costs.
    Herman;

    My stuff:
    Olive Musica/transport and server
    Mark Levinson No.360S D to A
    Passive pre (homemade; Shallco, Vishay, Cardas wire/connectors)
    Cardas Golden Presence IC
    Pass Labs X250
    Martin Logan ReQuests.

  8. #8
    abNORMal IBSTORMIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaxwired
    IBSTORMIN,

    I love your comments.
    Thanks!


    Quote Originally Posted by jaxwired
    The second thought that your comments provoked in me is something I've been thinking about for some time. I recently read a letter to the editor in the absolute sound from a guy that had been trading up for 30 years and was never satisfied, always chasing the next small improvement. I can relate to this person and I do not want to become this person. It's so easy to get swept up in this persuit of audio nirvana that you can easily forget to enjoy music. I decided awhile back to not be one of those people. I want to buy and listen to music. I've even considered ending my subscription to What Hi Fi since it encourages me in this never ending pursuit of audio equipment. While I love Hi Fi, there's so much myth and snake oil in this hobby, it's ridiculous.
    That's why, although tempted, I always throw away the Stereophile subscription offfers. At 53 I'm growing tired of trying to improve the sound and NOT LISTENING to the music. Might be why I was enjoying the music in my office. I was working and the music was just there for me.

  9. #9
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBSTORMIN
    That's why, although tempted, I always throw away the Stereophile subscription offfers. At 53 I'm growing tired of trying to improve the sound and NOT LISTENING to the music. Might be why I was enjoying the music in my office. I was working and the music was just there for me.
    Although my system is far from cheap I have achieved a sound quality where my wife and I can just listen to (digital) music for hours without the distraction of unwelcome artifacts.

    While I am by no means opposed to further improvements, they are not a requirement for musical enjoyment. An acceptable level of quality reproduction is in fact achievable today.
    Herman;

    My stuff:
    Olive Musica/transport and server
    Mark Levinson No.360S D to A
    Passive pre (homemade; Shallco, Vishay, Cardas wire/connectors)
    Cardas Golden Presence IC
    Pass Labs X250
    Martin Logan ReQuests.

  10. #10
    abNORMal IBSTORMIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    Although my system is far from cheap I have achieved a sound quality where my wife and I can just listen to (digital) music for hours without the distraction of unwelcome artifacts.

    While I am by no means opposed to further improvements, they are not a requirement for musical enjoyment. An acceptable level of quality reproduction is in fact achievable today.
    My system is nowhere near the quality of yours. Guess I'll have to keep searching!

  11. #11
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    I bought one piece at a time over several years, most for less than 1/2 of retail. Still as I said, not cheap.

    From what I personally hear, about $3,000 is the point where you stop minimizing negatives and start maximizing positives.

    It seems to me that for anything less than megabuck equipment, you need to decide if vacuum tubes or solid state floats your boat. Each has it's strengths. For enough money the differences between the two technologies tend to disappear.
    Herman;

    My stuff:
    Olive Musica/transport and server
    Mark Levinson No.360S D to A
    Passive pre (homemade; Shallco, Vishay, Cardas wire/connectors)
    Cardas Golden Presence IC
    Pass Labs X250
    Martin Logan ReQuests.

  12. #12
    abNORMal IBSTORMIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    I bought one piece at a time over several years, most for less than 1/2 of retail. Still as I said, not cheap.

    From what I personally hear, about $3,000 is the point where you stop minimizing negatives and start maximizing positives.
    I assume you are saying $3000 per piece of equipment used at 1/2 of new?

  13. #13
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBSTORMIN
    I assume you are saying $3000 per piece of equipment used at 1/2 of new?
    No, I meant that $3,000 used will buy a complete system that while hardly state of the art will be quite listenable.
    Herman;

    My stuff:
    Olive Musica/transport and server
    Mark Levinson No.360S D to A
    Passive pre (homemade; Shallco, Vishay, Cardas wire/connectors)
    Cardas Golden Presence IC
    Pass Labs X250
    Martin Logan ReQuests.

  14. #14
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    I agree

    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    No, I meant that $3,000 used will buy a complete system that while hardly state of the art will be quite listenable.
    That is, $3k (plus taxes, shipping) for a simple stereo system for a small to medium room, consisting of new speakers, integrated amp, digital source.

    Possible prices in these ranges:
    • Speakers, $900-1200
    • Integrated amp, $800-1200
    • CD or SACD player, $600-1000
    • Cables and interconnects, $100-200.

  15. #15
    nightflier
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    Well, I checked out the compressed MP3 files on Amazon and they also sound harsh, so I think that this is less about Jax' system than that the album was recorded that way. Considering Feanor's comments, I'm going to guess that the sound engineers mixed the audio with the intent that the majority of folks would download the compressed files and never hear the harsh treble. This is a bit short-sighted and I don't think the producers should be let off the hook on this. I consider it a disservice that music is carelessly produced these days because an assumed majority of folks (downloaders) won't hear the errors anyway.

    Jax, another thing you could do that won't break the bank is add an equalizer. Not elegant, but you can tame the high frequencies a bit with those. Alternately, there are a number of filters you can add, mostly from the pro audio side, that will trim the high frequencies.

  16. #16
    Forum Regular Kevio's Avatar
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    This CD might be a victim of loudness wars. CDs are often mastered above responsible levels and this causes some DACs to overload in nasty ways (other DACs are more well behaved). Or the CD might have been mastered by someone with HF hearing loss. An Audiophile label isn't a guarantee that it's going to sound good.

  17. #17
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    Well, I checked out the compressed MP3 files on Amazon and they also sound harsh, so I think that this is less about Jax' system than that the album was recorded that way. Considering Feanor's comments, I'm going to guess that the sound engineers mixed the audio with the intent that the majority of folks would download the compressed files and never hear the harsh treble. This is a bit short-sighted and I don't think the producers should be let off the hook on this. I consider it a disservice that music is carelessly produced these days because an assumed majority of folks (downloaders) won't hear the errors anyway....edit..
    I had a house fire a few years back. Before the fire I had about $6,000 worth of surround sound equipment and speakers. Now I have a nice TV, upconverting DVD and an almost rudimentary HT sound system. Why? I found that movie people paid little to no attention to sound other than to invest heavily in effects like car doors slamming off screen and whizzing bullets. My HT system couldn't hope to compete with my two channel set up for sound quality, so I never played music on it.

    I guess I'm saying I agree with nightflier, that sound engineers have much to answer for. Other than the boutique labels, much commercial CD sound is quite awful with movies near the bottom of the lowest common denominator mind set.

    It's not that I have anything against window rattling explosions or cannon fire, it just seems so contrived to me, adding little to a story line and often distracting from it. If I had a cash windfall, almost all of it would be applied to improving my two chanel rig.
    Herman;

    My stuff:
    Olive Musica/transport and server
    Mark Levinson No.360S D to A
    Passive pre (homemade; Shallco, Vishay, Cardas wire/connectors)
    Cardas Golden Presence IC
    Pass Labs X250
    Martin Logan ReQuests.

  18. #18
    abNORMal IBSTORMIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    I had a house fire a few years back. Before the fire I had about $6,000 worth of surround sound equipment and speakers. Now I have a nice TV, upconverting DVD and an almost rudimentary HT sound system. Why? I found that movie people paid little to no attention to sound other than to invest heavily in effects like car doors slamming off screen and whizzing bullets. My HT system couldn't hope to compete with my two channel set up for sound quality, so I never played music on it.

    It's not that I have anything against window rattling explosions or cannon fire, it just seems so contrived to me, adding little to a story line and often distracting from it. If I had a cash windfall, almost all of it would be applied to improving my two chanel rig.
    Funny you should say this right now. I have a 5.1 system set up in my living room and have been working on a REALLY FANTASTIC H/T for the basement. Lately I have been wondering.......WHY??? Nobody including my wife and kids seem to care. They are fine with sitting in the living room to watch a movie. Just this past week I got to thinking it might be tough to get them to come downstairs after I build it. So who am I building it for when I like to listen to stereo mostly. If I'm only building it for myself, I think I'll sell all my H/T for the basement and go higher end on the stereo. Thanks Hermanv

  19. #19
    nightflier
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    IBS, if you want them downstairs, just add an Xbox. But right now, you've got the whole thing to yourself, right?

    I think people often expect a HT setup to cost the same as a 2-channel setup as that way the 2-channel setup is still a margin better. But it's becoming increasingly clear to me that while 5.1 or even 7.1 channel setup to rival a good stereo system is possible, this will come at a price-point that is at least 4-5 times as high. So yes, that Anthem $6K pre/pro isn't out of line, and neither is $2K for a good sub (or two), and $2K for a good universal disk player is probably still cheap. The problem is that in this economy that is becoming increasingly difficult.

    So if it's just for the kids, maybe that Panasonic all-in-one system at Costco for $399 connected to a $600 Visio isn't such a bad deal after all.

  20. #20
    abNORMal IBSTORMIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    IBS, if you want them downstairs, just add an Xbox. But right now, you've got the whole thing to yourself, right?
    ALL to myself.


    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    So if it's just for the kids, maybe that Panasonic all-in-one system at Costco for $399 connected to a $600 Visio isn't such a bad deal after all.
    No, I won't go. Not that bad. I still have standards you know. Five powered (8" woofer/150watt RMS)Infinity three way bookshelves in the living room with Onkyo Integra DVD-A/SACD & THX receiver, 200 Watt 15" Cerwin Vega sub. JVC 32" CRT tv, non-HD. You can tell what's important to me, can't you?

  21. #21
    nightflier
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    Thank god, I thought we might lose another one to the Bose-ing down syndrome. It's a terrible disease, you know, and it's spreading....

  22. #22
    Sure, sure... Auricauricle's Avatar
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    Speakers, $900-1200
    Integrated amp, $800-1200
    CD or SACD player, $600-1000
    Cables and interconnects, $100-200.

    Good music and a ready ear, priceless!

  23. #23
    abNORMal IBSTORMIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    Thank god, I thought we might lose another one to the Bose-ing down syndrome. It's a terrible disease, you know, and it's spreading....
    And, Bose IS a four letter word, ya know ! ! !

    I was out pawn shop browsing today and saw a LOT of Bose in several different stores. Maybe people are being CURED ! ! !

  24. #24
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    I used to think about upgrading my HT but I thought whats the point. My family is content on using my 3.1 set up with my MG1.6's for the front channel, my B&W center and old Velodyne sub. It gets the job done with good sound. I too chose to put my money into 2ch.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
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    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
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