Too Loud...Fighting back

[bubslewis]

Great article in Baltimore Sun Papers on Sunday, 11/25/07 titled "Audio gain in volume signals loss for listeners". The article, by Chris Emery, starts on the front page ( not buried in section E or F on page 17!!!!!) and continues for almost a full page on page11.

It's a very nice article detailing the history, motives, consequences, and reactions to the gradual increase in recording levels over the past twenty to thirty years. Emery does a nice job of non-technically explaining sound compression and loss of dynamics in recording.

I'm very encouraged by the fact that this article started out on the front page of the paper. Many more folks will read it than if it were buried deep within.

To check out article, go to http://baltimoresun.com/loud . At the site, they also allow you to compare uncompressed and highly compressed versions of the same recording.

Also,if you are a sound engineer, check out the nonprofit organization "TURN ME UP" which is encouraging the use of full dynamic range in the recording industry.

Nice to see that someone is fighting back!

Bill

[Bernd]

Thanks for sharing that with us Bill.Very interesting and full marks to the guys for fighting back. I always knew that some recordings just don't sound right. So loud across the whole spectrum with hardly any peaks or troughs. Not for me I am afraid.
Maybe we should make a list of bad bad bad recordings to stay clear of.

Peace

[Feanor]

In my case it's a fact that the average output that I listen to at home is <70dB. Of course peaks can be 12-15dB higher with the classical music I listen to most often. Maybe this isn't live concert level, but I've never felt the need to listen at those levels at home.

It astonishes me that people claim to listen at average levels >80dB; some even claiming to listen at 90bB quite often. If that is actually true then there is an obvious reproduction problem given equipment has to deliver peaks at 12-15dB above average. Only super efficient horns and/or kilowatt amps can approch 105dB without distortion.

I think the prevalence of portable device has made the music compression issue worse. I like classical music mainly which happily is recorded with less compression, but downside is that I cannot listen while commuting to work on public transportation vehicles. The ambient sound levels there are so loud that I cannot hear all the music unless I turn up the volume much louder than I care to listen.

[bubslewis]

In my case it's a fact that the average output that I listen to at home is <70dB. Of course peaks can be 12-15dB higher with the classical music I listen to most often. Maybe this isn't live concert level, but I've never felt the need to listen at those levels at home.

It astonishes me that people claim to listen at average levels >80dB; some even claiming to listen at 90bB quite often. If that is actually true then there is an obvious reproduction problem given equipment has to deliver peaks at 12-15dB above average. Only super efficient horns and/or kilowatt amps can approch 105dB without distortion.

I think the prevalence of portable device has made the music compression issue worse. I like classical music mainly which happily is recorded with less compression, but downside is that I cannot listen while commuting to work on public transportation vehicles. The ambient sound levels there are so loud that I cannot hear all the music unless I turn up the volume much louder than I care to listen.

Feanor,
Even if you listen to music at < 70 dB, wouldn't you be able to still tell the difference between an overcompressed recording that sacrificed dynamic range vs. a recording that was not? (agreed it would be difficult to have the same recording twice, one of them overcompressed, the other not).

Bill

[emaidel]

Many manufacturers deliberately obscured the difference between "volume," and "dynamic range, " or even, "fidelity." In the heyday of the industry (late 70's) Cerwin Vega's tag line was, "Loud is Beautiful, if it's Clean." Whenever consumer audio shows occurred, in which manufacturers each had a separate hotel room to show off their stuff, no one wanted to be anywhere near Cerwin Vega because they played their speakers so loudly.

Jump start to the CD era, and now, as previous posts have illustrated, loudness has become a potentially damaging issue once again. It's apparent from reading these posts that this happens primarily to popular, or rock, music, and not classical. I'm definitely the "odd man out" based on what I've read here, and on other audio-only websites, but my music of choice, despite the hundreds of 70's rock LP's I own, is classical. My label of choice is Telarc.

All Telarc CD's have a statement on them that says that no equalization or compression of any type is ever used. As a result, the music can go from almost eerie silence to staggeringly loud, thereby more accurately duplicating a live performance. It is the difference between these two extremes that defines dynamic range, and which provides a realistic listening experience.

A lot of popular music is deliberately engineered for the primary venue in which the music is listened to, namely i-pods and car stereos, and rarely in-home audio systems. This isn't much different than the excess of midrange purposely put into many recordings of the late 60's and early 70's so that the material sounded good on AM radio.

Listening to a classical Telarc CD in my car is a frustrating experience, as road noise just about always overwhelms quiet passages, and if I turn the volume up so that I can hear them, then the system blasts far too loudly when the music itself gets loud.

So, what's the solution? I suspect there isn't one. Telling young people (or recording engineers) to turn down the volume has no more effect today than it did 30 years ago, and the hearing loss problems young people are facing today are no different than those from rock stars of the 70's. Just ask Roger Daltry!

[Bernd]

Many manufacturers deliberately obscured the difference between "volume," and "dynamic range, " or even, "fidelity." In the heyday of the industry (late 70's) Cerwin Vega's tag line was, "Loud is Beautiful, if it's Clean." Whenever consumer audio shows occurred, in which manufacturers each had a separate hotel room to show off their stuff, no one wanted to be anywhere near Cerwin Vega because they played their speakers so loudly.

Jump start to the CD era, and now, as previous posts have illustrated, loudness has become a potentially damaging issue once again. It's apparent from reading these posts that this happens primarily to popular, or rock, music, and not classical. I'm definitely the "odd man out" based on what I've read here, and on other audio-only websites, but my music of choice, despite the hundreds of 70's rock LP's I own, is classical. My label of choice is Telarc.

All Telarc CD's have a statement on them that says that no equalization or compression of any type is ever used. As a result, the music can go from almost eerie silence to staggeringly loud, thereby more accurately duplicating a live performance. It is the difference between these two extremes that defines dynamic range, and which provides a realistic listening experience.

A lot of popular music is deliberately engineered for the primary venue in which the music is listened to, namely i-pods and car stereos, and rarely in-home audio systems. This isn't much different than the excess of midrange purposely put into many recordings of the late 60's and early 70's so that the material sounded good on AM radio.

Listening to a classical Telarc CD in my car is a frustrating experience, as road noise just about always overwhelms quiet passages, and if I turn the volume up so that I can hear them, then the system blasts far too loudly when the music itself gets loud.

So, what's the solution? I suspect there isn't one. Telling young people (or recording engineers) to turn down the volume has no more effect today than it did 30 years ago, and the hearing loss problems young people are facing today are no different than those from rock stars of the 70's. Just ask Roger Daltry!

.....and spot on about Telarc. Even though I am not a classical listener I have however several Blues recordings on Telarc and they are all superb and indeed display vast dvnamic swings. Wonderful to listen to.
I hardly listen to music in the car anymore. Maybe it's just me, but I found that the outside noise has just increased too much. Or maybe I am just getting old and grumpy.

Good topic.

Peace

[Feanor]

... My label of choice is Telarc.

All Telarc CD's have a statement on them that says that no equalization or compression of any type is ever used. As a result, the music can go from almost eerie silence to staggeringly loud, thereby more accurately duplicating a live performance. It is the difference between these two extremes that defines dynamic range, and which provides a realistic listening experience.

...
Listening to a classical Telarc CD in my car is a frustrating experience, as road noise just about always overwhelms quiet passages, and if I turn the volume up so that I can hear them, then the system blasts far too loudly when the music itself gets loud.
...

Telarc recordings are typically above average for sound -- even their recordings made 20 years ago.

You automobile experience exactly parallels my bus-riding experience. There is no solution except to choose music that inherently has less dynamic range, e.g. Baroque or Classical instead of Romatic or Modern. Or else solo instead of ensemble, e.g. song or lieder instead of choral; piano sonatas instead of string quartets.

[Feanor]

.... Or maybe I am just getting old and grumpy.

Good topic.

Peace

You're not nearly as old and grumpy as I am.

[emaidel]

You're not nearly as old and grumpy as I am.

I've got both of you beat on that account!

[Groundbeef]

Telling young people (or recording engineers) to turn down the volume has no more effect today than it did 30 years ago, and the hearing loss problems young people are facing today are no different than those from rock stars of the 70's. Just ask Roger Daltry!

I enjoyed your post. However, I do have to take issue with the above statement. Hearing loss IS on the rise, and at a much faster rate than in the 70's and before. In-Ear headphones, and the proliferation of the Ipod and other MP3 players are directly to blame. When I was younger (20 years ago) the "walkman" was just arriving, and it only came with those clunkly over the ear headphones. Although the volume could be turned up, the social implications were harder to avoid. No one wants to sit and listen to YOU listen to Quiet Riot. Now, you can destroy your own hearing, and most people cannot hear you due to the in-ear phones.

It has been reported that hearing loss is being detected in children under 10. I tell you what, if you don't own stock in Bel-Tone (hearing aid co) I'd put it on your buy list.

In 10 years we are going to have a generation of deaf due to Ipod!

[Bernd]

I've got both of you beat on that account!

What did you say?

[emaidel]

What did you say?

Hold on a sec, while I get rid of my walker and put on my high-powered reading glasses....

[emaidel]

Hearing loss IS on the rise, and at a much faster rate than in the 70's and before.

It has been reported that hearing loss is being detected in children under 10. I tell you what, if you don't own stock in Bel-Tone (hearing aid co) I'd put it on your buy list.

In 10 years we are going to have a generation of deaf due to Ipod!

I certainly can't argue with that. I was trying to make a point, but yours is a far more accurate one.

[bobsticks]

Many manufacturers deliberately obscured the difference between "volume," and "dynamic range, " or even, "fidelity." In the heyday of the industry (late 70's) Cerwin Vega's tag line was, "Loud is Beautiful, if it's Clean." Whenever consumer audio shows occurred, in which manufacturers each had a separate hotel room to show off their stuff, no one wanted to be anywhere near Cerwin Vega because they played their speakers so loudly.

Jump start to the CD era, and now, as previous posts have illustrated, loudness has become a potentially damaging issue once again. It's apparent from reading these posts that this happens primarily to popular, or rock, music, and not classical. I'm definitely the "odd man out" based on what I've read here, and on other audio-only websites, but my music of choice, despite the hundreds of 70's rock LP's I own, is classical. My label of choice is Telarc.

All Telarc CD's have a statement on them that says that no equalization or compression of any type is ever used. As a result, the music can go from almost eerie silence to staggeringly loud, thereby more accurately duplicating a live performance. It is the difference between these two extremes that defines dynamic range, and which provides a realistic listening experience.

A lot of popular music is deliberately engineered for the primary venue in which the music is listened to, namely i-pods and car stereos, and rarely in-home audio systems. This isn't much different than the excess of midrange purposely put into many recordings of the late 60's and early 70's so that the material sounded good on AM radio.

Listening to a classical Telarc CD in my car is a frustrating experience, as road noise just about always overwhelms quiet passages, and if I turn the volume up so that I can hear them, then the system blasts far too loudly when the music itself gets loud.

So, what's the solution? I suspect there isn't one. Telling young people (or recording engineers) to turn down the volume has no more effect today than it did 30 years ago, and the hearing loss problems young people are facing today are no different than those from rock stars of the 70's. Just ask Roger Daltry!

Sometimes a post comes along that is so good and true and complete that it should be tagged as a "Must Read" for newbs. This one falls in to that category.

I thought I would come up with an original thought and throw out the possibility of enjoying some offerings from Telarc's jazz label but I see others have already beat me to the punch.

Barring that I shall simply say that I agree and "well said".

[emaidel]

I shall simply say that I agree and "well said".

Why, Thank you!