muddy vs boomy

[Rich-n-Texas]

What does one mean when he talks about a subwoofer sounding muddy vs one sounding boomy? I want to get my terminology right before I continue to discuss my sub placement problem. (Plus, this website has been extremely dull and boring lately, as well as dog slow!)

[GMichael]

IMHO:

Boomy = A large peek around 60htz. May not have much lower exstention.
Muddy = Clomplete crap. Sounds terrible at all frequencies.

[topspeed]

Mike's got it.

Boomy correlates a lot of bass as actual good bass. This is naturally not true. The old adage "Bass, bass, all over the place" comes to mind. Muddy simply means everything is blending together. There is no definition, no clean delineation between notes or start and stop.

[recoveryone]

let me add my 2 cents:

Boomy= alot of echo bass bouncing throughout the room along all feq
Muddy=dull un-define lacking tightness, They way most tuner cars sound, all boom.

Your sub should hit like a heart beat, not linger on or echo. Boominess can be results of room surfaces (hard floors/walls) and placement. Muddy is more of a poor sub driver/crossover setting itself, not able to give a tight response.

You should only really hear the sub when the action calls for it not during the normal dialog. Your sub is always working in a support role until its called upon to bring that chest pounding, window shaking, seat rumble effect. Then just soon as it hits it should jump back in its support role as if you never knew it was there.

[Woochifer]

Good responses so far.

My personal rule of thumb is simply that boominess occurs when you got that "one note" bass that just belts out at your head when the music hits certain notes. Boomy bass by its very nature is uneven, and is often created by the room acoustics or surrounding furniture more so than the subwoofer or speaker itself (however, poorly constructed speakers or ones with poorly braced cabinets can create a resonating effect that makes lower frequencies sound boomy).

Muddy bass is what recoveryone and topspeed said -- ill-defined. Ideally, you'd want bass that's clean and tight. Muddy bass can be more of an artifact of poor speaker/subwoofer design than the acoustics.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Thanks Wooch. I was told by a tech at B & W when I was talking to him about something unrelated a while back that the combination I have is well matched, and the fact that this set was originally purchased by an audio/video development team of engineers at work I think would bear that out. Regardless, my room accoustics do need work, which I've talked about before. I guess I just need to get my priorities straight huh? I've continued this conversation over in the thread about "long throw" subs.

(Geez, I hope I don't start sounding like Hershon. Somebody please kick me if I do!)

[PeruvianSkies]

Rich,

When I got my Platinum T6's I entered a whole new world of first-rate bass response. The best way that I can describe this is that good bass reproduction has pitch to the notes, rather than just one low-end note that can become either boomy or muddy. Muddy though is just sloppy bass with no articulation. Boomy on the other hand is just as bad as it often is muddy, but tends to be over-the-top in terms of the loudness and harshness of a single low end frequency.

When you have the correct crossover setting and calibration of your speakers and your sub the low end will be seamless as the low end notes can roll, articulate, and have definition all at the same time.

[kexodusc]

Too add to the discussion - I've known fewer "boomy" subs that didnt' come in home-theater packages than I have muddy sounding subs - often 8" or smaller drivers...
Boomy to me isn't necessarily centered around 1 frequency, but it does suggest a relative spike in some frequency range relative to the rest. Personally, I think a lot of "Boominess" is the result of room acoustics and sub integration/placement rather than the sub itself. Some ported subs cheat a bit with the tuning to get a louder response towards the bottom limit of their capabilities - this can contribute to boomy sound in a lot of rooms.
Muddy has been described enough here already, but yeah, a lack of clarity and distinction between notes. In today's subwoofer horespower race I hear a lot more of this than ever. There's some weak transient response, but great low end extension and volume ability. More of the suck, less of the awesome. You can get by with this for home theater purposes though, where bass doesn't really take on as much of a musical role.

That said, there's a lot more decent subs available today than there was just a few years ago...

[emorphien]

To add to what everyone has said, I usually find boomy to be related largely to the subs interaction with the room acoustics, although cabinet design has impact here as well. Boominess in my experience is usually around 60-100Hz, depending on the room/sub interaction. Muddy is usually a property of the sub, no matter where you put it or what room you put it in, all the bass sounds like one note and it's poorly defined and sloppy.

Like kexodusc said, muddy seems to be common lately in subs designed to go loud and low. They have no impact though and everything sounds like one big bloated note covering a whole bunch of frequencies. Muddy subs usually make a few different sounds, but they can't reproduce individual bass notes, instead you get a semblance of high, medium and low bass but that's it. I would however disagree with this being acceptable for home theater, or even something you can get by with. A muddy sub sucks the life out of explosions, helicoptor rotors and other low frequency effects. You may get something that's loud and low, but there's no "shape" to it, it's just noise.

[PeruvianSkies]

To add to what everyone has said, I usually find boomy to be related largely to the subs interaction with the room acoustics, although cabinet design has impact here as well. Boominess in my experience is usually around 60-100Hz, depending on the room/sub interaction. Muddy is usually a property of the sub, no matter where you put it or what room you put it in, all the bass sounds like one note and it's poorly defined and sloppy.

Like kexodusc said, muddy seems to be common lately in subs designed to go loud and low. They have no impact though and everything sounds like one big bloated note covering a whole bunch of frequencies. Muddy subs usually make a few different sounds, but they can't reproduce individual bass notes, instead you get a semblance of high, medium and low bass but that's it. I would however disagree with this being acceptable for home theater, or even something you can get by with. A muddy sub sucks the life out of explosions, helicoptor rotors and other low frequency effects. You may get something that's loud and low, but there's no "shape" to it, it's just noise.

I wonder what designs in subs are more closely related (if there is any relation at all) to muddy or boomy. Some people like front/rear firing, down firing, more ports, less ports, and various different constuctions. I'd be curious to hear some thoughts that people have with the type of sub, size of sub, and power of that sub in relationship to the room placement and also the overall character of that sub. This could make for a really interesting thread.

[kexodusc]

I wonder what designs in subs are more closely related (if there is any relation at all) to muddy or boomy. Some people like front/rear firing, down firing, more ports, less ports, and various different constuctions. I'd be curious to hear some thoughts that people have with the type of sub, size of sub, and power of that sub in relationship to the room placement and also the overall character of that sub. This could make for a really interesting thread.

Designs? Boominess isn't inherent in the design, only the execution. Usually, boomy subs are boomy because that was the intention, often to create the impression of lots of bass.

I prefer the front firing subs because there's less counter force on the woofer - sometimes this can reduce distortion and other counterproductive things. Front firing doesn't really add anything though.

In terms of sound quality, sealed subs, all things equal, will offer superior transient response over most ported designs (except a special kind of ported design). Often 4 times the response, especially as excursion and frequency demands increase. They sound tighter, more musical - all things equal. The downside is the bass extension, which is why you won't find many 10" sealed subs out there. Number of ports doesn't matter to me. The right size port does, two small ports is worse than 1 big one, IMO.

Size matters. But it's a bit dependent on room size and desired listening volume...even the desired low end response. Bigger drivers can generally play louder, lower, and handle more power. Smaller drivers are cheaper, and can get the job done. I used to believe smaller drivers sounded better. I've since learned from building my own subs and testing that driver size wasn't the determining factor. My observations were right, the smaller subs did sound better often, but that was because they had less excursion. With a good motor design and good sensitivity, a larger sub will play lower, louder, and sound better (less distortion). Too big a sub for the room will lead to that boominess we've been talking about. But if I could accomodate a 15" and had to choose between 15" and 12", all else equal, I'd get the 15".
Regarding power - Get enough, that's it. What's enough? I have one sub that needs 500 watts to do the job - a good 12" unit. I have a 15" sub that plays louder on less than half that. I'm indifferent to power, provided it's adequate for your needs. I will say that high wattage subs are usually high watts because they're compensating for something else (poor sensitivity), or just trying to win the horsepower race.

Room placement - depends I guess. I like in between the speakers somewhere if possible, near the speakers is a must. Not necessarily in the corners, but within 2 feet of a wall as a minimum.

Re: ported subs - transmission line and dual-chamber reflex designs are the exception to the rule here - they can sound as good or better than sealed subs and keep a lot of the high efficiency, low extension properties of ported subs.

[emorphien]

I wonder what designs in subs are more closely related (if there is any relation at all) to muddy or boomy. Some people like front/rear firing, down firing, more ports, less ports, and various different constuctions. I'd be curious to hear some thoughts that people have with the type of sub, size of sub, and power of that sub in relationship to the room placement and also the overall character of that sub. This could make for a really interesting thread.

Like kex said, it's all in the execution. I've heard good and bad of each general sub layout, although the exterior appearance tells little about internal layout.

I haven't really got a preference for lateral (front, back, side etc) or vertical firing, it all depends on the quality of the components and the detail in the design.

I've heard large drivers implemented well, but generally speaking I have found that most subs with smaller drivers tend to have a better transient response. If it's a high quality larger driver then it's not much of an issue but for built subs from most major vendors if I were going for music use I'd favor a smaller driver so it can attack the notes more directly/quickly.

[musicman1999]

My bub is a 13 inch sealed box model from Jm Labs,great for music,although it gets very little use for that purpose.I prefer my sub to be sonically invisible,that is in a dark room you should not be able to tell where the sub is.My system provides clean,strong bass down to the low 20hz range.The sub is positioned in the rear of the room,near the right corner,about a foot from each wall and about 4 feet from the prime listening spot.I spent a lot of time finding the right spot for the sub and a lot of time with the resonance filters on my processor,but it was worth it,the system sounds like i run 5 full range speakers with great bass response.

bill

[Woochifer]

Kex nailed it again. The design parameters will give you a set of general characteristics, but won't by itself guarantee a specific level of performance.

But, no matter what design parameters are chosen, poor execution in the box construction, driver design, matching the driver/port/box volume characteristics, room placement, processor setup, dealing with acoustical issues, etc. will seriously degrade the quality of the bass. I've heard decent bass reproduction from sealed, ported, TR, and infinite baffle designs. But, the best sounding bass I've heard has consistently been with subwoofers that are setup properly, and controlled for the room acoustics, whether through equalization or room treatments.

[kexodusc]

I've heard decent bass reproduction from sealed, ported, TR, and infinite baffle designs.

Okay, I left infinite baffle out of this, but truth be told - the best sounding bass for both music and home theater purposes I've heard has come from Infinite Baffle designs. They're the hardest to pull off though, and I'm not aware of Velodyne or anyone selling any solutions.
Those people who believe 80-100 Hz is still directional haven't heard an IB array.

If my wife would let me, I'd have two or four 15" holes in my wall or ceiling already. I'd even cover it with a fancy fabric. Lost that battle though
Sigh...the compromises we mak for marriage.

[kexodusc]

My bub is a 13 inch sealed box model from Jm Labs,great for music,although it gets very little use for that purpose.I prefer my sub to be sonically invisible,that is in a dark room you should not be able to tell where the sub is.My system provides clean,strong bass down to the low 20hz range.The sub is positioned in the rear of the room,near the right corner,about a foot from each wall and about 4 feet from the prime listening spot.I spent a lot of time finding the right spot for the sub and a lot of time with the resonance filters on my processor,but it was worth it,the system sounds like i run 5 full range speakers with great bass response.

bill

13" sub? Just gotta be different, don't ya?

[musicman1999]

It's from France,what can i say.Sure works well though.

bill

[R.S.]

Great answers here, and I would agree with placement being very important.

One way to determine boominess or muddy sounding bass is by listening to Classic Rock or Motown. A lot of people think because this should be played loud, you should be able to feel a lot of bass. Not true. (Anyone that enjoys great bass playing by the way, listen to some Motown).

The bass players from the 50's through the early/mid 70's were mostly playing through oversized or multiple guitar amp speakers. Lots of tone, but not pushing a lot of air. If you're feeling a lot of bass coming from these recordings, it's likely going to be very boomy or distorted.

In the 80's, bass amps became much more advanced. Listen to Sting, Stevie Ray Vaughan, etc. or any decent blues records. If you have a decent stereo, you'll notice a lot more air coming from your woofers without the boominess.

[PeruvianSkies]

13" sub? Just gotta be different, don't ya?

Well, that sub goes to 13..you see it's +1 louder than 12. lol

[bobsticks]

Well, that sub goes to 13..you see it's +1 louder than 12. lol

Smell the glove, P-Sky, smell the glove...

[PeruvianSkies]

Smell the glove, P-Sky, smell the glove...

No, I like the album SHARK SANDWICH better.

[hydroman]

Hngh! [snort!] 'more like sh1t sandwich'...

Tap Rules!

[musiclover60]

I like the terms boomy and muddy. Boomy bass, well, booms. You get "boom, boom ,boom" instead of "bop-bippity-bop". Muddy sound, like muddy water, is unclear (was that a bass guitar?, an organ?, my neighbors junker car?) and can leave you with a belly ache in the case of water, and an ear ache in the case of sound.
Very descriptive terms!

[shane2468]

I could be wrong.

I think boomy sound comes from subs that have poor body constuction and wood quality. And they might not have cotton putting them as well to prevent to much boom. I have seen inside subs before and some do have cotton wool to help the sub not puch to much boom. So thats were i get the idea. And also i would isolate my sub so it doesnt vibrate the floor, especiley if it was on wood flooring.