Does THX Certified DVDs mean good quality video?

[Smokey]

After seeing couple of certified THX DVDs, the answer to the question would be maybe yes or no.

THX certified DVDs Terminator 2 (2 disc special edition) and What Dreams May Come are the two that I own, and video quality on these DVDs is not the greatest. I seen better video on non THX DVDs. I don’t know how to describe it correctly, but the problem I see with THX DVDs are slight graininess, and lack of “warmth”. The picture have sanitized look that is flat and non dimensional.

May be I should look at few more THX DVDs to be more conclusive

[Woochifer]

All it means is that the transfer was done to a certain standard of accuracy relative to the original source (e.g., color balances, audio levels, etc.). THX certification does not fix problems with the master source. The most glaring example is the flipped music in the surround channels in the Star Wars DVD. That audio track obviously had a glaring error plus numerous drop outs and other issues, but none of that prevented the DVD from receiving the THX certification.

[Smokey]

So you are saying that THX is just a process, and it doesn’t care if source material (audio&video) is flawed?

That would mute the whole point for THX existence, wouldn’t you say?

[Woochifer]

So you are saying that THX is just a process, and it doesn’t care if source material (audio&video) is flawed?

That would mute the whole point for THX existence, wouldn’t you say?

All that THX guarantees is a set of quality assurances during the mastering and duplicating process. As with all things THX, it is neither an indicator of ultimate quality, nor is absence of a THX logo an indicator of inferior quality. Plenty of THX DVDs out there that don't look or sound as good as other non-THX DVDs, but that might say more about the source material than anything.

[PeruvianSkies]

NO, no, and absolutely NO! Think of THX as a simple certification of 'stamp' of approval based on certain mastering standards, however, this does not ensure optimal video or audio quality. Back in the Laserdisc era the THX approved 12" titles were usually superior to the non-THX certified ones, but DVD is a different story. The bottom line again is that not all DVD's are created equal and the older titles look terrible by some of the more recent standards, yet this is not always the case as even some of the more recent titles look poor in picture and sound. Why is that? Laziness. If the studio does not do a high quality transfer with the optimum materials than the picture quality suffers, add to that some compression and you have a real disaster.

[icarus]

THX is a set of standards and technologies designed to to make a home theater sound more like a movie theater. as such it deals with audio signals only after they've already been decoded. While generally accepted as legitmate for movie soundtrack reproduction, THX has inspired some controversy in audiophile circles where it is said to compromise music reoprduction.

[Dusty Chalk]

So you are saying that THX is just a process, and it doesn’t care if source material (audio&video) is flawed?

That would mute the whole point for THX existence, wouldn’t you say?

Well it's supposed to, but it doesn't (I.E. it fails).

And yes. Albeit, I think you meant "render moot", not "mute".

[markw]

What the heck does that mean except that it can be bought and applied to virtually anything. Wether it actually means something is something else entirely.

At this time, I rate it as significant to actual performance as those giant bird decals that appeared on the hoods of late 70/early 80's Trans Ams. Looks cool, impresses some, but doesn't really mean a thing.

[kexodusc]

In my experience, THX discs are often better than non-but not always so, nor are they perfect. There's good and bad. Guess this is consistent with other views. For the most part, big successful blockbuster type movies are good regardless of THX. And there are some crappy THX discs. I think it's a nice benchmark but really not much else other than fancy letters that might impress the average consumer.

As for THX and home theater - I think there's fundamental flaw in principle when engineers attempt to recreate the "theater experience" at home. Why limit ourselves to that? They should focus on "optimal audio experience", whether that's theater or otherwise, IMO. Home audio often far exceeds theater quality on many levels. They should include a few whiny kids, some smart-ass punk teenagers, cell phones, coughing, and a whole lotta popcorn bag rustlin' in the THX decoder/DSP's output to reproduce the theater experience.

[PeruvianSkies]

Well, yes and no...

Home Theater and a Real Theater are much different. I agree that often it seems that our experience at home can be better, at least in the audio department because most of us to not have a 35mm projector and 70foot screen at home. However, even the sound is ofter very different because we are getting DVD sound instead of a true read from the soundtrack print on the actual film, which is then decoded (the DTS soundtrack goes to a DTS-CD to sync up with the film). There is also the Sony Dynamic Digital Sound setup that offers 8 channels of sound and I have YET to hear at home the same experience on titles like STARSHIP TROOPERS, which was and is still one of the greatest sound mixes when I saw it in theaters...it was 8Track SDDS sound and the DTS on the Superbit pales in comparison as does the HDCD of the Basil Poledoris soundtrack.

My point? Not sure I have one other than to say that sometimes your home can be a more optimal place for sound, but I don't think anyone can compete with the real 35mm projector systems as far as realism, color, etc etc. Audio is another case altogether as sometimes the experience at home can be a bit better, but it certainly depends on the quality of the theater and the theaters equipment.

There is a theater near me that claims to have all digital sound, yet about half of their houses are still using analog, stereo surround, a few with THX Dolby Digital and and even fewer with DTS. I think it should be mandatory that all theaters explain what sound formats they will be showing the films in and quite frankly the price of the ticket should go down once the film goes down in screen size and sound wise....you know when you go to see a movie that's been out forever and you are in a room that looks like it's where they watch XXX movies with crappy speakers and a screen that's about 10 feet long.

[Dusty Chalk]

As far as I am concerned, THX is just the first three letters in the name of a famous movie, THX 1138.

[Smokey]

The bottom line again is that not all DVD's are created equal and the older titles look terrible by some of the more recent standards, yet this is not always the case as even some of the more recent titles look poor in picture and sound. Why is that? Laziness.

I really think that where the problem is: The studio that transfer film to DVD. They did not do a good job. And as you said, the date of production (age of film) is not an indication of quality as some of new tittles (Talladega Nights, Superman Returns) do suffer from bad DVD transfer quality.

But I thought THX be more selective as it put its stamp on DVDs. May be THX is more concern about audio portion of DVD than video.

Heck, you can buy THX certified speaker cables and interconnects.

Please, lets not go there

[Woochifer]

THX is a set of standards and technologies designed to to make a home theater sound more like a movie theater. as such it deals with audio signals only after they've already been decoded. While generally accepted as legitmate for movie soundtrack reproduction, THX has inspired some controversy in audiophile circles where it is said to compromise music reoprduction.

Uh, THX is a lot more than just that, since they're now getting into areas like computer audio and car audio systems. And the THX Theater Alignment Program that started it all was basically setup more or less to improve dialog intelligibility and establish minimum standards for acoustics, amplification, and speaker performance. This thread was about THX DVDs, and as I indicated, in that context it's nothing more than a set of standards used during the transfer and duplicating process.

Based on this definition, the last thing I would want is for my home theater to sound like a movie theater! With a movie theater, the imaging has to be compromised in order to disperse the sound across a large auditorium as uniformly as possible, and you lose the pin-point directionality with the surrounds going through arrays of multiple surround speakers instead of two, three, or four precisely aligned speakers. Plus, screen speakers are generally designed more for efficiency rather than accuracy. While there are some great movie theater sound systems out there, the majority of theater sound systems out there, including most that are THX approved, can't approach the performance of a properly aligned midlevel home setup. This is primarily because at home you can optimize the sound jus for your listening position, something that's not possible in a movie theater.

[PeruvianSkies]

I'd still sit in the worst dollar movie theater in the world than sit in Wooch's home theater room.

[kelsci]

Hi Smokey; The THX thing can be a yes and no issue. The only "truer" comparison that I was ever able to make was with the non-THX and THX edition of Terminator 2 on laserdisc. The video was improved on the THX disc on the color quality, in particular green grass which looked like green grass on the THX version but had a bluish cast on the non-THX version. The digital audio on the THX version had a fuller sound but it also sounded too midrangy. The THX disc I had also had some kind of vertical line running through it, like a kind of groundswell you would see on a calm ocean. I was able to rent two THX versions of THE ABYSS on laserdisc. One was the widescreen and one the pan and scan. The digital audio was better on the pan and scan disc. The THX mastered JURASSIC PARK on laserdisc had excellent picture and digital sound quality on the long play or CLV laserdisc but was even better on the CAV 30 minute per side disc version. Listening to the sound between the two reminded me of the compression one hears on Dolby Digital vs DTS surround tracks on dvd.

[PeruvianSkies]

I agree...someone else on here knows what I was referring to about the 12" Laserdiscs.

[Woochifer]

I'd still sit in the worst dollar movie theater in the world than sit in Wooch's home theater room.

Well, if you'd rather hang out in some XXX theater with "crappy speakers and a screen that's about 10 feet long," who am I to deny you that enjoyment?

[Smokey]

The only "truer" comparison that I was ever able to make was with the non-THX and THX edition of Terminator 2 on laserdisc. The video was improved on the THX disc on the color quality, in particular green grass which looked like green grass on the THX version but had a bluish cast on the non-THX version.

From your post it seem that THX might have done a better job back in the 90’s with laser discs than with current DVD technology where it seem to be just a rubber stamp.

As I recall from 90’s, T2 was indeed the reference disc to showcase a system visually and sonically. But the THX T2 DVD is far (at least visually) from being called a reference disc.

[PeruvianSkies]

Smokey...

I still own a few Laserdiscs that could easily go a few rounds with some of the current DVD's. For example the DTS edition of RONIN blows away the Dolby Digital on the DVD edition. Likewise the DTS of BLADE on 12" Laserdisc is far superior to the Dolby Digital on the DVD. Even the 2.0 stereo is fuller on the Criterion Edition of SILENCE OF THE LAMBS in comparison to the 5.1 Dolby Digital on DVD. I also prefer the Dolby Surround on AIR FORCE ONE on Laser compared to both the DTS and Dolby Digital Superbit of AIR FORCE ONE, however, the DVD wins in the picture department, except with a few minor instances like the Criterion BRAM STOKERS DRACULA, which has better, more accurate color than any edition of that film on DVD, even the Superbit.

[kelsci]

Hi Smokey; Your recollection of T-2 as being a reference LD on its release in the 90s is correct.

The two versions of the T-2 laserdisc that I possess are the pan and scan versions. My brother possesses the 3rd edition of T-2 on dvd which is of course is both OAR and unlike the first two dvd editions is created from a new high definition master. So I cannot give a fair video quality comparison between the LD and the third edition DVD. I do think that the video quality of this dvd is quite good. I remember reading an article that evaluated the 2nd vs 3rd edition dvds. There seemed to be subtle improvements in the video quality of the 3rd edition.

When it comes to the audio quality of the third edition dvd, one must remember that all the dvds came from a sound format that this film was originally mastered in called Digital Cinema Sound. I do not think that DCS was descrete thru 5 channels so therefore the 5.1 ex soundtrack found on the dvds are remastered. I might add that the 2nd edition DVD of this movie had an added DTS-ES surround track that is not found on the third edition. IMHO the 5.1 THX mastered Dolby Digital sound quality is quite good on the 3rd edition DVD; I believe better than all sound quality on the soundtracks of the LDS.. If I have any qualms it is on the remastering itself. There are times that the 5.1 remastered surround track shines over the 2.0 Dolby Surround tracks in particular with the elevator scene in the mental institution. Other times, I favored the 2.0 LD tracks. The A-Bomb dream sequence sounds good from all discs involved. If anything, I found the additional ex sound to not really fit the action at times.

Whether THX is to be considered a "rubber stamp" is hard to say. I do not know of any dvds out there that were re-released THX's after first being released in non-THX's form, to make a comparison. What is funny is that on the last three STAR WARS films, that the THX opening logo audio sounds more dymamic and hyper than the films mains soundtracks. As far as the video goes, the last two films came out of a computer filmed on a digital movie camera so there is no way to tell what influence THX post processing had. I have TOY STORY 2, which is THX mastered and of course sounds wonderful, but its video came out of a computer too.

[PeruvianSkies]

A few things about T-2....

First, as many may remember I posted a thread awhile back declaring it the greatest sequel, which caused some debate, despite my defense stating that THE GODFATHER II is not really a sequel since it's part of a series.

Anyway, back to the technical stuff...

T2 was indeed released with CDS (Cinema Digital Sound) and is one of three of the last 70mm blow up films to have a true 5.1 mix. The mix on this film is groundbreaking and clever in just about every way imaginable. The various editions on Laserdisc were quite phenominal and the Artisan DTS edition is still the best around, unless you have the Bluray, which has both Dolby Digital EX and DTS-ES (matrixed). T2 was also part of a short-lived experimental 12" High Definition Laserdisc format that was tried in Japan.

[kelsci]

Hi Peruvian; I read an article some time ago as to what the mix was for the CDS sound but I cannot remember what was said about it. I thought it was not a true 5.1 thingy as such you are more knowledgeable than me on this fact.

It is the 2nd edition that had that DTS soundtrack as I mentioned but that soundtract was not carried over to the third edition.

The original 2.0 sound on the non-THX laserdisc indeed sounds quite good, the THX LD sort of less so for the reason that I stated; midrangy.

Interesting that T-2 was tried as a high def. LD experiement in Japan. It should also be noted that on the 3rd edition DVD that there is a high definition video track on that too in what I believe is some form of windows media. This did play on my brothers computer or at least played successfully after he had increased his processing power. I cannot say I was necessarily wowed from what I saw however.

[PeruvianSkies]

Kelsci,

It's too bad that we are not able to obtain all 12" Laserdisc editions of T2, including the experimental HD one, plus the D-VHS, and all DVD editions, including the HD on the third "Extreme" edition and sit through and write up a complete review comparing all editions of that film and the various mixes and picture qualtities. Now that would make for a superb sitting. It's a shame that film was shot in Super 35 instead of real Panavision though. I was fortunate enough to see this film in 70mm blowup prints and dang did it look amazing!

[Dusty Chalk]

Would you really want to watch T2 that many times?

[PeruvianSkies]

I've already seen the movie quite a few times over the past few years and still believe it to be one of the finest motion pictures made, especially in the Sci-fi/action genre. I don't mind revisiting it and if I were doing comparisons between various formats I would not need to watch each and every scene, just the few that are worth catching and ones that I am most familiar with. It's the same when comparing music, you don't need the entire album to compare, just a few sections from certain songs. For T2 the ones I would demo would be ...

The portal when Arnold shows up at the truck stop
The truck chasing the John Connor on the bike through the streets. etc.
Various parts when the T-1000 morphs
When Arnold pumps shots into the T-1000 in the mall corridor, which actually is recordings of civil war cannons dubbed together to get the 'impact' sounds of the sawed off shotgun.