Skeptical

[charlescomplete]

I'd like to upgrade these speakers I have.. but being a first time hi-fi buyer I'm a little skeptical, especially because there are no decent audio dealers around here for me to hear for myself before buying.. I'm leaning toward some Quad 21Ls.. would they really produce an incredibly different/better sound than Cerwin Vega VS150s? would I need to upgrade my amp before noticing? it's a yamaha cr600, I'd appreciate some different thoughts. thanks

[RGA]

Better is highly subjective. My favorite Cerwin Vega was the D-9 a 15 inch wofer with two midrange units anda tweeter. No it is not high-fi the way audiophools run around using the term -- so the D9 will image like crap and they are not accurate (though none remotely are).

Still most of the stamounts they rave on about have totally inept bass and dynamics micro and macro. For Rock, dance, pop, metal the D9 will CRUSH any 1k standmount panzy ass low sensitive speaker.

Now for Jazz and small scale classical at non loud levels the D-9 was rather unlistenable because the bass simply smudged everything.

How your CV compares I do not know but by no means should you buy the Quad without listening to it - no matter who tells you how great they are. Out of every 100 speakers that people on forums and magazine reviewers have told me are great 95 have sounded atrocious -- and the interesting thing is that the 3-4 things the D9 did so well for $900.00 Canadian 15 years ago, brand new speakers costing ~3k do so abysmally bad. I don;t know about you but when I pay more I should get eveything good about my last speaker and a lot more. This hobby is a very dangerous one where you can spend more and more money and eventually realize after it is too late that simple was probably better all along.

[Dusty Chalk]

I agree. Better is highly subjective. Back around 2000 I went from a ~20 year old Pioneer Project 100 A boxy monitors to contemporary Polk speakers -- entry level, but a world of improvement nonetheless. All improvements I've made since then have been incremental at best -- more of an indication of the inferiority of 20 year old speakers than the superiority of Polk entry level product.

If you feel like you're going to take a chance on something, take a step back and ask around on these forums, specify what it is exactly you're trying to accomplish. Are you just bored and want to spend some money (nothing wrong with that, someone has to feed the economy)? You want more smoothness?

Also, what are your listening habits? Do you listen to music in the background or foreground? Do you listen in the classic isosceles triangle listening, or nearfield? Loud, soft? What kind of music? What do you listen for? Do you just want to get your toe tapping, or do you want to hear the fidelity of your equipment?

That said, I love my Quads (I have the 12L powered).

[markw]

After a while with them, you may find yourself being bored and any change is, well, different and satisfying at first. But, after a while you may find that the change, while intriguing at first, was really not for the better. The old one may not be right, but this one might not be the one either.

The difference is that getting rid of the speakers is easier and generally cheaper. They generally come with a home trial period.

If you're gonna buy speakers without hearing them, make dang sure they have a liberal return policy anbd don't be afraid to use it.

[charlescomplete]

Thanks for the replies, first off. and yes, isosceles triangle, usually in the foreground, anything from mozart to the velvet underground, the beatles to the jesus & mary chain.. bob dylan, spiritualized, and robert johnson.. a lot of mellow stuff, a ot of faster louder rock n roll..

Basically, like anyone else, I'd like to reproduce accurate sound, like it's real.. with $1000 speakers and an amp and in my room, that may not be possible, but that's what I'm going for.. I was in a used clothing store a few weeks ago and was walking around really really struggling to tell whether there was a real band playing or if it was a recording.. ended up being a recording and I was amazed. I'd like to struggle to tell when I'm sitting at home. I don't know the term for it.. I see terms around here and there like soundstage and imaging but I'm not exactly sure what any of that means.

The cerwin vegas and this amp certainly don't produce that kind of sound. Any more suggestions?

[JoeE SP9]

How about a pair of MMG's and a decent powered sub woofer?
How about a used larger pair of Maggies and a powered sub woofer?
Panel lovers are always looking for converts.

[emorphien]

Even with your source equipment, you could probably benefit from a pair of speakers if you find something you liked the sound of better. Although that stuff might be worth upgrading too.

Is there a better speaker for you though? That really depends on the sound you like. There is no right or wrong answer, and as long as you've auditioned things than you're taking the right steps. It may still take time after getting something to really find out if it's right for you, but initial listening tests are important.

[charlescomplete]

wow, I read about the MMGs, they sound great on paper, and it turns out the dealer a town over from here stocks them.. I'll go check them out on wednesday. I'm excited, they sound awesome.. especially cool that I can return within 60 days if it doesn't work out.. they have to be drivin by 4 ohm amps I hear? Any suggestions on a subwoofer to match them?

[markw]

They are extremely placement sensitive, needing several feet between them and any outher room boundaries. Also, their "Sweet spot" tends to be fairly narrow.

They really don't have the bass you want. You'll need a subwoofer.

They also require clean, high current power. I got by quite well with a NAD 214 which put out about 120 wpc @ 4 ohms. But, I was using a subwoofer to do the heavy lifting.

Even so, they tended to sound a little congested at moderately high levels on complex music. I solved this buy replacing them with a pair of 1.6's and a Rotel RB-991B, with 300 wpc @ 4 ohms. ...till have the placement/sweet spot issues, though.

but, if you can live with their demands, they provide a great ride.

[charlescomplete]

I was thinking of going with the MMGs and one of the outlaw subs. Would the LFM-2 be enough? I don't need massive amounts of bass.. any thoughts?

also.. my room is shaped like an L and the speakers are at the bottom, with the listening position between middle and top.. to the left of the speakers the ceiling raises quite a bit.. its a two level apartment.. and it has an open staircase looking over the foot of the L.. so the ceiling goes quite high in that small area.. how will this effect sound? it seems to be ok with the speakers I have now

______
|..........| stairs
|.....x...| V
|..........|
|..........|_____
|...................|
|_x__x______| <- high ceiling area


x's are speakers and couch if that hasn't been figured out heh. But yeah, the set up is kind of like this.. it's approx 23'x12' I'd say. the speakers are out from the wall about 20 inches right now.. they're also pretty deep.. so with the MMG's they would be out about 3'+

[markw]

your proposed setup looks a lot like mine amd it works. I wound up with the maggies about 3' from the right and rear walls walls. Depending on the length of the "L", you may want to move your couch a bit closer to the speakers but YMMV. Dunno about that sub. Never worked woth it or heard much about it but subs are independent of the main soeakers.

One thing you might consider and I used it with the MMG's. Make sure you can separate the preamp from the main amp. Feed the preamp out to the line level inputs of the sub and let it filter out the lows. Have the sub then return the signal (sans lows) to the mains. That will both drop your amp's power requirements and keep the lose from the MMG's, which they don't do well anyway. You win two ways.I ws able to happily drive the MMG's wit ha NAD 214 that way.

[JoeE SP9]

Beware charlescomplete! If you like the Magneplanar sound boxes will never satisfy you again. Let us know what you think after you've heard them. As far as subs go, IMHO a sealed box sub will integrate better as they tend to have tighter bass. You want everything as tight and clean as possible with Maggys. They are very revealing speakers.

[charlescomplete]

So I stopped by that shop.. the magnepans are awesome. he didn't have the MMGs but he had the MGMC1s which sounded great.. how do the MMGs compare to them? the mc1s are more expensive but smaller, are they only more because they're wall mount or what? the MMGs seem to have better specs, but specs only say so much.. he also had the MG12 but he just recieved them today so they weren't hooked up yet.. he didn't want me to hear the more expensive ones because I wouldn't appreciate the sounds of whatever I bought at my price range as much, I thought that was cool of him. he wasn't trying to upsell much, respected my budget. he recommended letting him build a subwoofer.. the one he showed me fit really well with the mags so I might do that. he also suggested that as far as cd players go they don't get very good until you're spending about $1k.. he said it would be better to buy a $100-200 panasonic dvd player and he would alter it for me, changing the power outlet and dampening some things, I forget what he said exactly. he seemed pretty honest though and wasn't trying to sell me everything he had.. he did recommend a jolida tube amp over a new outlaw

any thoughts?

aside from all that, yes, the magnepans sound great.. tons of detail and a huge soundstage.. hearing them finally made me believe those words heh

[JoeE SP9]

The MMG's can benefit from a sub woofer. The MGMC1's require a sub woofer. The MMG's are a "full range" speaker that are designed to be used alone. The MC1's have no bass and a sub woofer is necessary for any bass.