getting "better" SQ

[audio amateur]

I'm curious to know what you guys think of these...:
http://www.dakiom.com/index.htm

never heard of them.

[hermanv]

According to their own web site , these devices are designed to fix unstable feedback loops from improperly designed amplifiers.

Me, I'd get a properly designed amplifier

[audio amateur]

hehe thanks. Me too...

[Mtbrider]

I tried them for awhile in two different systems. Although they initially seemed to improve the bass response, I ultimately felt that they had a negative effect on transparency, so I sold them.

[Resident Loser]

I'm curious to know what you guys think of these...:
http://www.dakiom.com/index.htm

never heard of them.

...of tweaky stuff that unscrews my cork...

Negative feedback, the process of feeding a part of the flip-flop of the output into the input, in an effort to lower distortion, is designed into an amplifier and it happens within the amplifier's circuit path...Inside...not outside.

How can any external device have any effect on something that is a part of the closed-loop of the signal path within the amplifier itself?...

Can it effect the sound? Yes, but so can aftermarket wires with terminating networks. Is it better? More accurate? Entirely subjective?

jimHJJ(...straight wire with gain?...)

[markw]

According to their own web site , these devices are designed to fix unstable feedback loops from improperly designed amplifiers.

Me, I'd get a properly designed amplifier

Sounds suspiciously like a Zoebel network to me.

[hermanv]

Negative feedback, the process of feeding a part of the flip-flop of the output into the input, in an effort to lower distortion, is designed into an amplifier and it happens within the amplifier's circuit path...Inside...not outside.

How can any external device have any effect on something that is a part of the closed-loop of the signal path within the amplifier itself?...
jimHJJ(...straight wire with gain?...)

Without supporting these devices in any way, its worth pointing out that the summing node for the internal feedback loop of many amplifiers is the input base or grid of the first stage. So you bet an external reactance applied to this same circuit node could effect the loop behavior.

This helps explain parts of "system synergy" the fact that certain components or cables may work better or have a larger effect with some equipment than with other equipment

[Resident Loser]

Without supporting these devices in any way, its worth pointing out that the summing node for the internal feedback loop of many amplifiers is the input base or grid of the first stage. So you bet an external reactance applied to this same circuit node could effect the loop behavior.

This helps explain parts of "system synergy" the fact that certain components or cables may work better or have a larger effect with some equipment than with other equipment

...not buyin' it...these thingies are connected to the power amp's speaker outputs and while their effect may be audible, I can't see how they would have any effect on the internal feedback loops which are located far upstream (and fairly isolated) from these devices and their connection point.

Add to that, that each amp's design tend to have differing amounts of feedback and these things seem to be a one-size-fits-all affair, not really optimized to reflect such differences.

jimHJJ(...as markw suggested Zobel network anyone?...)

[hermanv]

...not buyin' it...these thingies are connected to the power amp's speaker outputs and while their effect may be audible, I can't see how they would have any effect on the internal feedback loops which are located far upstream (and fairly isolated) from these devices and their connection point.

Add to that, that each amp's design tend to have differing amounts of feedback and these things seem to be a one-size-fits-all affair, not really optimized to reflect such differences.

jimHJJ(...as markw suggested Zobel network anyone?...)

In most designs, the output stage of an amplifier is the most in need of feedback correction so the signal from the last stage is usually included in the feedback mix. Feedback is a broad term, global feedback normally means from the last point on the output to the first point in the input, it is both the best way to apply feedback and worst way because it is easy to introduce unplanned results an thereby get it wrong (read up on slewing induced distrortion and transient induced distortion).

So global feedback is traditionally taken from the output signal as far downstream as possible and then applied to the input stage as far upstream as possible. This means the actual speaker leads in the case of a power amplifier. In the case of a tube amp, picking feedback from the actual speaker leads will include the output transformer inside the feedback loop, in the case of a transistor amp the signal from this point is often used for both feedback and amplifier output stage protection. Putting a complex reactance (capacitor and inductor network?) to ground at this point can change the amplifier feedback or protection signal.

Again, I think the concept is probably a bad idea. Designers may have made any number of decisions about how to shape the feedback signal (that signal is usually shaped by some kind of network) and second guessing the designer seems unwise.

If the design is poorly executed so that these things help, I stand by my original comment - buy an amplifier that is not poorly executed.

As to Zobel networks, all of them have a corner frequency, traditionally that corner is the frequency at which the voice coil inductance starts to significantly increase a given driver's impedance. Zobel networks allow previous crossover stages to work into a fixed load (4 or 8 ohms for example). Putting a Zobel ahead of the crossover accomplishes little,. Plus, is that Zobel designed for the tweeter, the mid range or the woofer? A single compromise network is very unlikely to actually work.

[markw]

Putting a Zobel ahead of the crossover accomplishes little,. Plus, is that Zobel designed for the tweeter, the mid range or the woofer? A single compromise network is very unlikely to actually work.

Neither. It's designed in order to increase the inductance that the amp's output stage sees in order to minimize any oscillations that can arise from a poorly designed amplifier, or speaker cables with dangerously low inductance, which seem to be all the rage lately.

[hermanv]

Neither. It's designed in order to increase the inductance that the amp's output stage sees in order to minimize any oscillations that can arise from a poorly designed amplifier, or speaker cables with dangerously low inductance, which seem to be all the rage lately.

1. A Zobel series R - C network will decrease not increase the impedance (inductance).
2. In any event, this is incorrect, that is not the main purpose of a Zobel. A Zobel network is part of a speaker crossover design, not part of an amplifier design.
3. Short speaker cables also have low inductance. Nothing dangerous about using short cables to your speakers, low inductance is not dangerous.

If your amp becomes unstable with zero length speaker cables it is a badly designed amp, think hard about getting a better one. Good speaker cables attempt to mimic no cable, that is an ideal speaker cable would look like a cable of zero length so it would have zero Ohms, zero picoFarads and zero microHenries.

What does a Zobel accomplish? Say you have a midrange and you decided to roll it off at 3KHz. Using a first order network an 8 Ohm driver would need 425uH of series inductance to acheive that result. If the driver voice coil inductance is not taken into account, the roll off above 3 KHz will not be 6 dB per octave, it will be less because the voice coil inductance causes the nominal 8 speaker impedance to rise at frequencies somewhere above mid band.

However markw is partially correct that it will also somewhat decrease the amplifer load impedance, the problem is that most multi-way speaker crossovers have lots of inductors, mostly much larger in value than the voice coil inductance. Look at any typical speaker impedance vs frequency plot, mostly those positive peaks in impedance are inductive by nature.

[royphil345]

"speaker cables with dangerously low inductance"

Oh please!!!!

Smack yourself around a little and wake up!!!

[markw]

"speaker cables with dangerously low inductance"

Oh please!!!!

Smack yourself around a little and wake up!!!

This can be deadly for some high strung (i.e. poorly designed) amplifier designs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naim_Audio

"The company's pre- and power- amplifiers, especially, are carefully matched electrically and are designed to be used together. Dire warnings attach to experimentation with other manufacturers components, particularly in the case for some "high-end" loudspeaker cables, whose inductance/capacitance characteristics present unstable loads to the high-current devices used inside Naim power amplifiers — these have been documented to cause damage to same (not covered by warranty)."

We ran into this problem with a client in the early 80's. Plain zip cord worked fine but his expensive botique cables brought this Niam amp to it's smoking knees. ...all because of low inductance, high capacitance cables.

[royphil345]

Any different load presented by a different freaking piece of wire is absolutely insignificant compared to the different loads presented by different drivers and crossovers.

If Naim really weaseled out of their warranty claiming that speaker wire destroyed their amp... that's absolutely disgusting, your client was a fool for buying it, and you obviously bought it too.

If it's not true... Naim should sue you for slander.


"We ran into this problem with a client in the early 80's. Plain zip cord worked fine but his expensive botique cables brought this Niam amp to it's smoking knees"

Would someone who sold "Naim" know how to spell it?... LOL

[markw]

Any different load presented by a different freaking piece of wire is absolutely insignificant compared to the different loads presented by different drivers and crossovers.

If Niam really weaseled out of their warranty claiming that speaker wire destroyed their amp... that's absolutely disgusting, your client was a fool for buying it, and you obviously bought it too.

If it's not true... Niam should sue you for slander.

I didn't lose any money on he deal. In fact, we got paid quite well for solving it.

Gee, it almost sounds like you're a bit angry that I was able to back up my claim. Why should I be sued. Where did I mention any names? But, anyhow, to some of us that were around at that time this story is common knowledge.

[royphil345]

You didn't back up anything. The garbage on the web is just that.

You really didn't mention any names... You said you witnessed "Niam" practicing shady business. Although, you implied "Naim" by your link.

[markw]

You didn't back up anything. The garbage on the web is just that.

You really didn't mention any names... You said "Niam" practiced shady business. Although, you implied "Naim" by your link.

Well, obviously my first hand experience isn't enough to convince you but that''s fine. I'm used to being doubted but that doesn't alter the truth.

I could suggest you visit a certain cable forum at another unnamed audio site where meds are perscribed for the inmates on a regular basis, but I doubt it would do any good. You wouldn't believe then, either. Even crazy people speak some truth.

Now, I've dropped more than enough hints that you should be able to discern the site I'm refering to if you are interested enough to investigate further on your own.

TTFN

[royphil345]

Your "first hand experience" is obviously BS because you couldn't even spell "Naim".

I don't care if 1 or 100 people tell me something that's so obviously false to anyone with some real knowledge... I'm still not buying it!!!... LOL

[markw]

Your "first hand experience" is obviously BS because you couldn't even spell "Naim".

I don't care if 1 or 100 people tell me something that's so obviously false to anyone with some real knowledge... I'm still not buying it!!!... LOL

...and I'm not selling anything!

Well now, I guess since I transposed a few letters I'm out of the running , eh?

Tsk... tsk.. .you know what they say about posters who stoop to playing spell check, don't you?

My reputation as an objectivist here speaks for itself and, if I have the noive to come out and say that a wire can make a difference, you can be dang sure I've experienced it.

[royphil345]

"My reputation as an objectivist here speaks for itself and, if I have the noive to come out and say that a wire can make a difference, you can be dang sure I've experienced it"

I absolutely agree that wires networks can sound different. I absolutely, strongly, and violently disagree that using the wrong freaking speaker wire will damage an amplifier. It bothers me when such crap is spread around on the internet. It could be used to steal someone's money.


"Well now, I guess since I transposed a few letters I'm out of the running , eh?"

When the letters are transposed in a brand name you're supposedly very familiar with... Yes, it is VERY likely that you are lying.



"Tsk... tsk.. .you know what they say about posters who stoop to playing spell check, don't you?"

Uh... No I don't... If you had any balls, I suppose you'd tell me...


"Tsk... tsk.. ."

Tsk... tsk.. . Are you freaking serious... Tsk... tsk??? Are you like the world's biggest geek or something???!!!

[markw]

OK, I will. It means you're out of steam and that's your last resort.

It comes right before name calling, which I see you resort to in the next post.

And, all this stuff happened before Al Gore invented the internet* and, most likely, you were still a wet spot on your daddy's inseam. Did you read the dates?

*WEll, compuserve was just starting up but that's a different animal.

[royphil345]

You're full of hot air and POOP!!!

Oh... And there's no difference between speaker wires that will actually cause damage to an amplifier. That stuff has been around since the laws of physics came to be.

Tsk... tsk... BBBBWWWWAAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAHHHAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

[markw]

I see that rather than learn you would prefer to call names. I can see your momma raised you well. Too bad daddy didn't stick around to help. Then again, with a kid like you, who could blame him?

[royphil345]

Well... I see that rather than learn, you prefer to live in your fantasy world where using high-end speaker wire can destroy your amplifier.

You need to wake up, join reality...

Pedro is never going to be the president of anything in real life. Star Trek isn't real. An amplifier isn't going to be damaged by using high-end speaker wires!!!!

WAKE UP YOU FREAKY, CREEPY, NAME CALLING, LYING, MENTALLY CHALLENGED PIECE OF GARBAGE!!!

At least I know you're not my kid 'cause I did your momma' in the butt!!! That ugly freakin' horse face woulda' been too much!!!

Nobody, no matter how well they were raised, is going to put up with a freaky loser like you. Of course, you probably already know that. Do you think people on the internet will treat you any differently???

We'll see what Naim has to say about not honoring their warranty when high-end speaker wires are used. We'll see what they think about you posting your "stories" in public.

[markw]

Well... I see that rather than learn, you prefer to live in your fantasy world where using high-end speaker wire can destroy your amplifier.

You need to wake up, join reality...

Pedro is never going to be the president of anything in real life. Star Trek isn't real. An amplifier isn't going to be damaged by using high-end speaker wires!!!!

WAKE UP YOU FREAKY, CREEPY, NAME CALLING, LYING, MENTALLY CHALLENGED PIECE OF GARBAGE!!!

At least I know you're not my kid 'cause I did your momma' in the butt!!! That ugly freakin' horse face woulda' been too much!!!

Nobody, no matter how well they were raised, is going to put up with a freaky loser like you. Of course, you probably already know that. Do you think people on the internet will treat you any differently???

We'll see what Naim has to say about not honoring their warranty when high-end speaker wires are used. We'll see what they think about you posting your "stories" in public.

Gee, wotta crybaby. What, time to change your diapies? You get trounced in public and go threatening legal action because you are wrong, eh? Yep, you sure can dish it out but you still can't take it.

What, you gonna have 'em gonna sue wikipedia and A/R? Get real. You've been reading too many comic books, kid.

Wassamatta' kid? Like to dish it out but can't take it, eh?

Your opening statement, and each subsequent one, was progressively more confrontational and insulting than the previous, even after I initially maintained a civil nature. You don't want to exchange ideas, you want to insult people who have different ideas and more experience than you. If not, you would explore and learn rather than fling insults like a grade school child with no upbringing.

Yep, you're an Internet baby, all right. Brought up taking anonymity for granted. You've got keyboard balls when mommy isn't watching you . You'll say things behind that which you would never say in person.

What, don't like that web site, do ya? Why? Because it shows that there's more to this world than your widdle mind can conceive? Get used to it, kid. You're in for some biiiiiiig disappointments when you grow up. Life is like that kid.

I once THOUGHT you had some sense but your actions here sure proved me wrong. You're just a widdle poser who doesn't even do his own laundry yet.

I'm so glad you've come out and shown your true colors to everyone. Happy now? Real proud of yourself?

OIh, and as far as nobody wanting to put up with a freaky loser like me, well, my wife, three grown boys and five grandchildren seem to have no problems with me. And there you are, still living in a polygamous state with Rosy Palm and her five sisters.

Now , run along child. you annoy me.

TTFN. kid. Markw out