DIY Sub Project suggestions?

[Florian]

Hey guys,

can you please point me to a subwoofer that is Open Baffle (no box!!!!!) about 6 feet tall. It might be used in a active configuration from 22Hz and down only. The DIVA does 18Hz but falls off at 22 which is incredibly low already but some of the Bach Organ works go lower. Any pointers?

Please no small box woofers, nothing with a box and open baffle about 6feet tall.

Thanks

-Flo

[kexodusc]

You looking for a manifold IB subwoofer already made or planning to do one yourself? I'd recommend adire audio - their Tumult drivers will work, and go as low as 14 Hz.

I really can't hear anything close to music below 24 hz or so...it's just all sounds the same to me at that point. If you're not interested in running it for at least 2 octaves, to 35-40Hz or so I really wouldn't bother. There's probably better things you can upgrade that will be more useful and make bigger differences.

[Florian]

There is a whole world below 25Hz and the DIVA already covers the entire spectrum with lightning speed but drops off at 22Hz. The subwoofer will ONLY play below 22Hz, absolutly nothing above. I dont want any none-ribbon drivers in the music. There is plenty of music down there.

Sorry to hear you say that it all sounds the same to you, thats one reason i dont like cone drivers. Do you have a link to a design page?

Thanks

Flo

[kexodusc]

Geez, there you go again...
It has nothing to do with cone drivers...I had my hearing tested when I was at the ASO in Atlanta with actual instruments playing specific notes below 23-24 Hz or so if memory serves. I could tell a contrabassoon from an organ from a harp, but not the notes - hence I say no musciality...E's, F's, G's all sounded the same. I could hear it, but the ability to identify the notes consistently was lost to us. Most people in my class couldn't accurately make it out either. Below 18 Hz and I was just feeling it, couldn't hear it at all.
Real musical instruments, live...not fake stereo reproduction...God's Apogees on their greatest day couldn't do better.

[Florian]

Now listen here Kex,

i never questioned your hearing. I never cared about live instruments with this. I dislike cone drivers, Period. I find them horribly lacking in pretty much every single area. I only want the Subs from 22Hz and down for large Organ works and Electronic music.

Nothing else!

The cone driver will never play above 22Hz because i do not like them, i will never like them and will buy a pair of electrostatic headphones before i place a box in my room should i ever get a room which is too small for my panels.

I am looking for advice on a DIY project for a open baffle, boxless 6ft tall linesource subbass system. Either you have a tip for me or you dont. But dont try to start a fight about cones. Only for 22Hz and down, thats all they will be used for. A box will enter this music room over my dead body.

Respectfully

-Flo

PS: If i can find electrostatic subwoofers or custom build ribbon subwoofers i would buy them.

[kexodusc]

Not starting any fights, just responding to your earlier comment:
"Sorry to hear you say that it all sounds the same to you, thats one reason i dont like cone drivers. Do you have a link to a design page?"

I didn't bring up cones, you went straight to it...almost like you were looking for a fight. I then felt it right to correct your wrong earlier assumption that cones had anything to do with it based on my experiences at the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra (ASO) as reference.

Don't want to talk about cones...then don't bring them up in the first place.

[Florian]

Ok, then it was a missunderstaning. You said that you cant hear a difference that low and that it sounds the same to me. For me it doesnt, and i blame cone drivers. For me these systems cannot differenciate good enough between frequencys for me. Since you are a cone driver users i simply feel sorry that you cannot hear it. I am sure if you hear a large Organ works Live you could easily tell the differences at those low frequencys.

-Flo

[kexodusc]

You aren't likely to find blueprints for a project like this. Too many variables to make a "kit" or universally adaptable project that can be copied. I suppose it can be done, but it wouldn't be optimal, and I assume you'll want this to be the best it can be.

You can make one easily enough though. How big is the room? That could but a dampener on things right away...you generally want the room to be 10 times the Vas of the woofer - you can get away with 4 times the Vas for these huge woofers...but that's still pushing 2000L of room volume. 10 times is better. Finding woofers that play that low in open air without a box's assistance isn't going to be easy. I'm not aware of any other suitable candidates that are worth their salt.

[kexodusc]

Ok, then it was a missunderstaning. You said that you cant hear a difference that low and that it sounds the same to me. For me it doesnt, and i blame cone drivers. For me these systems cannot differenciate good enough between frequencys for me. Since you are a cone driver users i simply feel sorry that you cannot hear it.
-Flo

Didn't say it all sounds the same, just that it loses it's musicality. Whatever...

I am sure if you hear a large Organ works Live you could easily tell the differences at those low frequencys.

Did you even read what I....nevermind...

[Florian]

Didn't say it all sounds the same, just that it loses it's musicality. Whatever...


Did you even read what I....nevermind...

Nevermind, this must be a language and translation error on my part.

[Florian]

You aren't likely to find blueprints for a project like this. Too many variables to make a "kit" or universally adaptable project that can be copied. I suppose it can be done, but it wouldn't be optimal, and I assume you'll want this to be the best it can be.

You can make one easily enough though. How big is the room? That could but a dampener on things right away...you generally want the room to be 10 times the Vas of the woofer - you can get away with 4 times the Vas for these huge woofers...but that's still pushing 2000L of room volume. 10 times is better. Finding woofers that play that low in open air without a box's assistance isn't going to be easy. I'm not aware of any other suitable candidates that are worth their salt.

The current room volume is aprox. 131 cubic feet (low ceeiling) but i am planning to go double that at least in the next room. It has to be open baffle and no box. If the price is too high i will save, either i do this right or not at all.

-Flo

[kexodusc]

Nevermind, this must be a language and translation error on my part.

LOL...do you speak any other languages besides German and English? I can do Spanish or French?

[kexodusc]

The current room volume is aprox. 131 cubic feet (low ceeiling) but i am planning to go double that at least in the next room. It has to be open baffle and no box. If the price is too high i will save, either i do this right or not at all.

-Flo

Uhh...Flo...you fit them apogees in a closet, or are you just pulling my leg with all of this?
That'd be like 6 ft X 5 ft X 5 ft...I though one Apogee was almost that big????

[Florian]

Uhh...Flo...you fit them apogees in a closet, or are you just pulling my leg with all of this?
That'd be like 6 ft X 5 ft X 5 ft...I though one Apogee was almost that big????

LOL... i hate feet....

Its 4.9m by 3.83m by 2.1m

:-)

PS: Sorry, only german and english

[kexodusc]

LOL... i hate feet....

Its 4.9m by 3.83m by 2.1m

:-)

PS: Sorry, only german and english

Cool, I prefer metric too. Your room is more than more than big enough.

Ideally what you want to do is isolate the front wave from the rear wave. To do this, you'd need a fairly large baffle. Furthermore, you're probably going to want more than 1 woofer. 2, maybe 4 to get the results and performance you're looking for.

Most people I know who do this end up mounting them in a wall, the ceiling, or the floor with the back side of the woofer pointing into another room of sufficient size (attic, basement?). With smaller drivers you can get away with a 6 ft baffle. For subs hitting 22Hz and below, you'll want complete isolation. If you can, cut a hole in a wall, put the woofers there. That's the best way to do it.

But open baffle subs are done with a lot of active filtering. Below 65 Hz or so on an open baffle of 6ft, you'll lose 6 db/octave sound from cancellation in an open baffle. That's a lot by the time you get to 22 Hz. I'm guessing because of the excursion demands, you'd need more woofers to get loud without worrying about frying the woofers. Could be looking at 2 or 4 subs. The cancellation issues of an open baffle sub would scare me off.

Not impossible, but I honestly think an infinite baffle sub is not only far easier, but would also produce much better sound. Bass waves are so big that the dipole effect doesn't come into play like it does at frequencies above 200 Hz. I've heard infinite baffle subs, and when I can finally convince my wife to let me cut two or four 15 inch holes in my wall, I'll have an IB system.

[Woochifer]

Might want to contact Adire Audio about their Parthenon motor. It's a custom build design and they can mount whatever diaphragm and suspension you want to the motor itself. They showed a demo unit at CES a couple of years that could anecholically output over 120 db at 20 Hz using nothing more than a driver fitted with a 24"x24" square diaphragm and openly mounted on a wooden stand. No idea about how linear the bass response is in that configuration. Here's the information that Adire posted a couple of years ago.

At the 2004 CES we'll be showing a 24" square baffle unit, with a Qts of 0.72 and an Fs of 7 Hz. Flat anechoic response to 6 Hz. And capable of over 66 liters of linear air displacement! That will generate reference level (121 dB SPL) output at 20 Hz, when sitting naked in a room - no room gain, no baffle, no box required. The first true dipole driver (not sub - no baffle, remember!) that can do reference outputs. With flat output to the single digits. How's that for a driver?

Price? Well, if you gotta ask... Basic charge for the motor will be in the $2500-$3000 range, and that includes a base suspension (there's a LOT of machining in this piece, not to mention the price of the steel or the neo). Final cost depends upon the application - diaphragm size, voice coil config, any changes required (note that it's trivially easy to add more stroke - lengthen the voice coils, use taller columns, and we're there), finishes (powder coat, anodizations, paint, etc) will all affect the total price; figure in the $4500-$5000 range for most "normal" application. But considering what you have here - more output than 12 Tumults in the base 2004 CES trim! - it's a relative bargain.

So how far can you go? A 48" x 48" panel would be about the limit. Pretty easy to stretch the motor to 12" of peak-to-peak stroke, so that would be around 16 cubic FEET of displacement (over 450 liters of linear displacement). Now THAT would be a monster! Anyone game? I know a few famous car audio names who are already planning to use this beast, want to join that exclusive club?

Hmmm... An IB with one of these units might just be the trick for a new 100 seat theater, too... Anyone out there building a big home theater? "

Anybody with $5k laying around?
At least a box or baffle is not needed...

[kexodusc]

LOL!!!!
Look at that ridiculous thing...at some point a speaker quits being a speaker and becomes a power tool...or a WMD. Adire isn't afraid to cross that line, that's for sure. I'm guessing that transient response isn't the biggest selling feature of this thing.

I love that Adire has partnered up with Hemp...they make some groovy drivers too.

IB'ing that would be deadly...I'm pretty sure the response linearity would be terrible in a small open baffle, so active filtering would be required. ...it has nothing to do with the driver and everything to do with the baffle step rise phenomenon. But the active filtering should be very easy...6 dB/octave boost below the frequency where the wavelength size equals the baffle size, and then a solid cut where Flo wants to cut it at.

I'm sure I saw that thing on Star Trek: The Next Generation.

[audio_dude]

hey flo, i know you want an open air sub, but difinitive technologies makes a HUGE sub with 2 14" woofers, and 4 14" passive radiators, designed for the organ at trinity church in newyork, it's supposed to go down to 10htz!

(sorry bout the imperial, i like metric too, it's what we use up here eh!)

[Bernd]

Flo my fellow music lover don't do it. Don't put a sub into a music system.

a sub......sub is short for substitute, another word for make do.

Peace

Bernd

[audio_dude]

the man wants is infrasonic bass, so give the man his infrasonic bass!!!

[E-Stat]

I had my hearing tested when I was at the ASO in Atlanta with actual instruments playing specific notes below 23-24 Hz or so if memory serves. I could tell a contrabassoon from an organ from a harp, but not the notes - hence I say no musciality...E's, F's, G's all sounded the same. I could hear it, but the ability to identify the notes consistently was lost to us. Most people in my class couldn't accurately make it out either. Below 18 Hz and I was just feeling it, couldn't hear it at all.

I think this perfectly illustrates the fact that each of us approach the musical experience differently. As a non-musician, my enjoyment is based entirely upon sensory input and the emotion it evokes. While there may not be any discernable notes to be found in the organ pedal at the end of the Saturn selection of Holst's The Planets, hearing it reproduced in all its glory can bring tears to my eyes. For me, that is part of the musical experience.

While there are arguably not terribly many pieces of music with first (or sub first) octave content, they sure can be fun!

As for my ultimate sub, naturally I would go for the Sound Lab UB-1 electrostats. They have very nice response below 22 hz or so. Here's a guy who has them flanked by U-1s.



rw

[audio_dude]

very nice!

[Feanor]

...
As for my ultimate sub, naturally I would go for the Sound Lab UB-1 electrostats. They have very nice response below 22 hz or so. Here's a guy who has them flanked by U-1s.

rw

E-Stat, don't you get a lot of cancellation with dipole bass? Wouldn't the speakers need to be more than, say 1/4 wave length from the wall to prevent major cancellation. At 22 Hz that would be 12.5 feet.

[GMichael]

I think this perfectly illustrates the fact that each of us approach the musical experience differently. As a non-musician, my enjoyment is based entirely upon sensory input and the emotion it evokes. While there may not be any discernable notes to be found in the organ pedal at the end of the Saturn selection of Holst's The Planets, hearing it reproduced in all its glory can bring tears to my eyes. For me, that is part of the musical experience.

While there are arguably not terribly many pieces of music with first (or sub first) octave content, they sure can be fun!

As for my ultimate sub, naturally I would go for the Sound Lab UB-1 electrostats. They have very nice response below 22 hz or so. Here's a guy who has them flanked by U-1s.



rw

Now THAT'S hot!

[GMichael]

Hey Flo,

Have you ever heard one of these?
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=300-864

TACTILE SOUND TST429 PLATINUM TRANSDUCER