Pioneer, Denon, or Marantz help !!!

[orgasmdonor]

My current receiver in my opinion bites (Sony STR-DE595) . I've had it for almost 3 years now and just recently upgraded my speakers. I can now clearly hear the Sony's deficiencies musically. I have been looking at the Pioneer Elite vsx-72txv, Denon avr3805, and the Marantz avr7500. I have heard the Denon and the Marantz..but not the Pioneer. It was hard for me to compare the Denon And Marantz's sound (I was in the same room but different speakers) ...Supposedly both the Marantz and Denon have the high current amplification. I'm not exactly sure what it means...but I know my Sony doesn't have it. I read about the Pioneer and it is supposedly "high current". My current Sony is 100 watts per channel (so it says) the Marantz is 105, Denon 120, and the Pioneer 130w. The Pioneer seems to have everything and the price isn't so bad. I'm just not sure about Pioneer's amp section compared to the Marantz or Denon's. I like to listen to my headbanging music loud, but i need more punch and clarity. Before my new speakers I used to blame the old speakers....now I blame the receiver. Please,,,, Any opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.....click on orgasmdonor for my speaker conglomeration.

[orgasmdonor]

Anyone that has or has listened to one of these please give me your opinion. If you know about the amp sections and what is the better build quality it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

[EdwardGein]

I have a Denon 3801 & the sound is great. I listen to mainly 60/70's rock & blues on remastered CD's in the all natural channel (5 speakers & sub) mode which gives the music more depth for my ears. I know this isn't going to help you but you need the right DVD/CD/Universal player to go with your receiver as well as the right speakers & sub and to a certain extent the right optical cable or analogue cables plus the right speaker gauge wires.
If just one of those isn't up to sniff, your audio sound will not be wonderful.

[orgasmdonor]

thanks Ed...I run all 12 gauge wire and I have a pioneer DV-270 dvd/cd player. It's a lower end model but does a decent job. I use all monster cable for my connections. I do not have any opitcal connections installed. People have told me they are not necessary. I guess I do not know any better since I haven't tried them before. Ed what do you know about the Pioneer Elite?

[Geoffcin]

thanks Ed...I run all 12 gauge wire and I have a pioneer DV-270 dvd/cd player. It's a lower end model but does a decent job. I use all monster cable for my connections. I do not have any opitcal connections installed. People have told me they are not necessary. I guess I do not know any better since I haven't tried them before. Ed what do you know about the Pioneer Elite?

Along with a host of other home electronics. Your probably not going to get anyone with experiance with the new Elite vsx-72txv, as it's a brand new unit.

[EdwardGein]

First off, while I haven't heard your DVD player but just based on what you're saying, I'd get rid of it if your getting a Denon or other high grade receiver. To form an analogy, if you have a $1,000 Tailor Made suit are you going to wear a $20 pair of Payless shoes with that? In the case of a DVD player, apparently the DAC's make the most difference in sound. I've noticed a termendous difference in sound when I connect my DVD player digitally via optic cable to my Denon receiver from other DVD players. Other people on this board comment there won't be a difference. Well I notice a difference as do other people I know (as well as other people posting reviews). In my case, the Denon 31 DVD Player doesn't sound as good hooked up analogue (RCA cables) as opposed to a digital optical connection. Again, your settings on the DVD player & your receiver will affect the sound. In my case, the bass management is controlled by the DVD player the way I have this set up. You can get a Denon 22 DVD player for around $150 online & the 31 for around $250 online. The 31 plays DVD-A & the 22 doesn't, and my gut feeling is, it probably will give you better sound as well, but I can't prove that. I'm sure there are plenty of other DVD/Universal Players that will give you great sound, it depends what you're willing to pay. I am saying for the record, a CD played on a $150 plus DVD player will sound better then a $50 player, connected by analogue or digital.

I'd recommend if you get anything new, just buy from a store with a decent return policy & get 2-3 of each & keep what works best for you. I use Monster Cables as well (the lowest THX of each series) & am happy with that. For my Fiber Optics cable, I use a glass one for TV & another one for my DVD player, that I got from a regular vendor on Ebay. I bought my receiver used with manual & remote for $425 on Ebay & it works great. The drawback on buying something used is there is obviously no return policy.

The other thing I'd do if I were you is check and double check the settings you put in for your receiver & DVD player as the slightest change/error can upset the whole thing. Also set your system up based on what your ears tell you not necessarily what a build in setting is telling you.

I know 2 Pioneer Receivers (the 840 watt Pioneer VSX-1015TX & the 700 watt Pioneer VSX-815-K) & the Pioneer DV-588AS Universal Player seem to be held in high regard.

[kexodusc]

I wouldn't put too much stock into the "high current" claims. Assuming these guys are honest, watts are watts. I don't know of many receivers that are "high voltage", so the current in these things are probably all fairly comparable, and nothing to get excited over. I'm going to speculate here that if the current handling abilities in any of these models was enough to prevent you from buying, you're going to need a bigger, badder unit anyway.

I like the Pioneer, but any of these will work fine for you. I'd probably be comparing features, inputs, outputs, etc, and prices quite closely. Try to demo them all. I'd be surprised if you found an easy clear winner, but some people seem to hear big differences between these brands.

[orgasmdonor]

Once again, I really appreciate your time and input gentlemen. I have about $1000 bucks to spend on a receiver and dvd/cd player. I have been reading so much over the last couple of months about receivers, which one's better.....etc....I just get friggin confused and frustrated. The Denons claim to have an amplifier for each channel. The denon may have sounded more powerful than the Marantz to me ...but not by much. The Marantz was more mellow. The Pioneer gets a very good rating by cnet. That guy may be getting paid for all I know. I seem to be leaning toward a Denon. I see so may refurb Denon products on the internet for sale. I wonder if they have problems more than others. Marantz has a refurb dealer also... accessories4less.com. I just like to discuss issues with people that are not trying to sell me something and are more experienced home theater "technicians". That Sony was, is, my 1st home theater receiver. At the time I did not think about what I was doing it was cheap and I like Sony so I bought it. I have 3 Sony receivers two of which are 15 -20 years old. I have a touch screen 25 watt Sony (bought in 1986) that is almost as powerful as my 75 watter ( 1992). My 5 year old daughter uses the older sony. I'm just rambling. Do you think that Denon would be the "safe" purchase to make?

[EdwardGein]

Go to Ebay & buy a used Denon 3801 for between $375- $450 including shipping, that's listed in very good or better condition, with a remote & a manual from a seller with alot of positive feedbacks. That's the model I have- I actually bought 2 of them used for 2 rooms & resold the remotes on Ebay for around $50 each as I have a Harmony Universal Remote anyway. The Denon 3801's are usually on Ebay about 4-5 items a week. Or check out another model & completed auction prices on Ebay. There is one listed right now , item 5867919943 If I were you & you have paypal, contact the seller right away & tell him you'd like to buy it from him direct by paypal & leave your email address. Once he contacts you, remind the guy that if he sells it to you direct, he won't be paying fees & therefore the price should drop to XXXXXXXX accordingly. If he says no, alot of these people on Ebay are total idiots, either bid at the last 10 seconds or just wait till someone puts this on as a Buy It Now Item. Whatever you do on Ebay, do not buy anything that doesn't come with a manual & remote & don't buy from anyone who hasn't sold at least 20 items with excellent feedback or your asking for trouble. Do not buy anything that is listed as "good condition" or worse & any listing that has the words "as is" just dismiss immediately.

I definately recommend against getting anything refurbished. Your asking for trouble.

After you've gotten your receiver get a good DVD player that retails for $150 or more. Check online from Amazon.com, Ebay, CNET, Circuit City & other places. Just remember if you have a $100,000 receiver & your crappy $50 DVD player, your sound will still be crap!

Get a fiber optics cable for all of $10 or so.

In regards to speakers with your budget, I'm pretty sure you can get 5 Orb Audio Speakers for a good price. Their sub is around $400 more but you can use an existing one in the meantime.

[orgasmdonor]

Thank you Ed. How about buying a new one from an unauthorized dealer ? Do you like the 3801 over the 3805 ? Is it price ? Or something else? I can get a new one (3805) from unauthorized company for 699. I currently have Athena f2.2 fronts ...ahtena c2 center ,, and athena asp 6000-- 200 watt-continuous 800 max sub. with a pair of nice old AR M1 bookshelves that rock. Is the 3801 105 watts?

[EdwardGein]

The 3805 is ranked really high & if you can get that from an authorized dealer new for $700, I'd say go for it. In regards to Unauthorized dealer- what exactly does that mean? If it means someone who won't accept a return within 30 days or someone who's warranty is basically no warranty, I'd say go with the 3801 Used in very good condition for $375- $450 total including shipping from a reputable seller & buy a good New (Don ot buy used) DVD player for the $250 you save not buying the 3805. What appealed to me about the 3801 was the price & sound. I think the sound is great & the price was right for me. The good thing about Ebay is, if you buy something that doesn't knock you out, you can always resell it on Ebay for a minor loss provided what arrives is as advertised. The 3805 will sound just as good if not better then the 3801 & has more features such as the level setting device- again for me, I trust my ears over what a machine tells me what is best, but this feature might be important to you. Right now your talking a $250 difference. If you have the money & don't need it for anything else, get the 3805. Having said that, you're better off getting the 3801 & a Harmon Kardon 31 DVD player then the 3805 & your existing DVD player. The 3801 I think has 735 watts, 105 per channel. These are true watts. There are a bunch of reviews on the 3801 at http://www.epinions.com/511953_Denon...splay_~reviews
If you get a Denon I definately recommend, assuming you have 5 speakers (or more) & a sub, listening it in the All Natural Channel Mode so all the speakers are on & unprocessed unlike ProLogic setting. I'd recommend connecting your DVD player to the receiver by Optics Cable- there's an excellent one sold regularly buy a guy on Ebay, I'll give you his seller name if you want. For Tv, glass optics cable sounds better also available froma seller on Ebay.

Thank you Ed. How about buying a new one from an unauthorized dealer ? Do you like the 3801 over the 3805 ? Is it price ? Or something else? I can get a new one (3805) from unauthorized company for 699. I currently have Athena f2.2 fronts ...ahtena c2 center ,, and athena asp 6000-- 200 watt-continuous 800 max sub. with a pair of nice old AR M1 bookshelves that rock. Is the 3801 105 watts?

[orgasmdonor]

Thanks Ed. Y our advice is leading me in the right direction...I'll keep you posted on my final decisions. Have a good evening sir.

[EdwardGein]

Thanks Ed. Y our advice is leading me in the right direction...I'll keep you posted on my final decisions. Have a good evening sir.

I'm really curious if you notice a significant difference in sound which I did from my previous system. Hope Motorhead sounds awesome

[Eric Z]

You really can't go wrong with any of the receivers you listed. As EG says, you can find some good deals on Ebay, but it's hard to really know what you're getting- EG says to stay away from a refurbished item, but how do you know the guy selling their on Ebay wasn't refurbished- there's no way to know. Be careful because let's say you buy your receiver on Ebay and the thing breaks a month after you get it- you're out of luck! I know you'll save a bunch of cash buying it on Ebay, but you're also getting a unit years and years old- how do you know how the previous owner took care of it. I like the feeling of buying a receiver at a decent price from a local dealer so if something goes wrong, I can disconnect everything and bring it in. I'm not saying totally stay away from online shopping, but just be aware of the consequences- especially if you just purchase something from someone not going through the official Ebay procedures- if you just e-mail the guy and tell them you'll buy it and pay through paypal; there's no contract or anything, so he can receive your payment and enjoy the cash and never send the receiver- there is no contract this way. It's great if it works, but are you willing to take this chance?

Be careful with buying new from an unauthorized dealer as well. Samething as buying from Ebay- yeah it's new, but if something happens, you're screwed.

Also, do you really need a receiver in the $800-$900 range? A lot of people get the same results from a receiver in the $700-$800 range- sometimes the extra "options" won't benefit you that much. I always look at receivers one step above and below my price range- just to be 100% sure I'm getting what I need. Just something to think about. Also, it's not like the Athenas are very hard to power- a nice $500 receiver will make them sound great.

Maybe buy the 3805 from a local store, test it out at home and see how you like it with your current DVD player- maybe do the same with a step below and see what differences you notice and then maybe with Onkyo, Yamaha, or Marantz. It could be a pain to hook everything up numerous times, but this isn't a cheap investment. Also, be careful with hindsight- all receivers in the same price range perform very similarly- that's why they're in the same price range.

Talk about rambling...

Good luck and enjoy!
Eric

[EdwardGein]

From personal experience, I've never gotten burned by a seller with a good reputation- meaning someone with feedback over 25 & 98% or so positive feedback. The odds of this type person selling a clunker I think is very small & if it is, chances are that he would accept a return. I'd say listings by this type person are pretty accurate so you're buying what you're getting. I don't have a problem buying something direct from that type of person either. Anyone who doesn't meet the above criteria, I would err on the side of caution & not buy from. Here is an easy example of what to always avoid that I just saw on Ebay: Foreign sellers with little or no feedback selling electronics. Some dude in Japan was trying to sell a $300 set of headphones that he listed for $5 & wound up getting $150 or so for. I guarantee the winner will never see his product. As mentioned, yes if you buy direct, you are giving up all Ebay protection, but if your positive the seller is totally reliable & he lists items as described, the chances of the item being a lemon is very very slim & the odds are almost all in your favor. If you want to be extra cautious & you can wait, then either wait till your receiver comes up at a buy it now price that you want or bid at the last 10 seconds only (if you know how to do this) as regular bidding by you will almost without fail just succeed in bidding the price up and not having you win the auction. It's just like throwing money away. Most of the reliable sellers on Ebay do use the word Refurbished if it is applicable.

[GMichael]

If you really need tons of power then I would think that you should make sure that whatever you get has pre-outs. Then you can add a sepperate amp for 2 channel blasting.
Good quality 200wpc x2 amps can be had for a couple hundred buck on Ebay.

[orgasmdonor]

i have yet to do anything...My wife thinks I'm a nutbag for spending as much time as I do researching. I have nothing to lose since she won't provide the lovin. So that means I must find other "hobbies" . whAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS.....ECOST.COM HAS THE DENON REFURBISHED DENON AVR2106 FOR $383 PLUS 14 BUCKS FOR SHIPPING ....DENON FACOTRY AUTHORIZED DEALER....
I CHECKED DENON'S WEB SITE...And they are. Now the unit comes with a 90 day parts and labor warranty through Denon. For the same receiver I can buy the same thing through an UNauthorized agent "brand new" for around $500 with shipping but would have to purchase one of their warranties for piece of mind DAKMART.COM is also a factory authorized dealer. I can gat refurbished from him for around 480 with shipping and a one year parts and labor warranty. Why are there so many denon's refurbished ? Is it because they take too good of care with the customers or are they getting cheap with the build specs....and where they are built. I don't see web sites for too many high end yamaha or Pioneer refurbs...but then again maybe there is no market for them either.....rambling....tooo many busch light tall boys.....you guys are great .

[Eric Z]

Good points about Ebay, EG! I think I actually feel the same way- I guess I was just in a confrontational mood I've bought tons of things on Ebay and was only burned once- luckily it was less than a $10 purchase.

[EdwardGein]

Good points about Ebay, EG! I think I actually feel the same way- I guess I was just in a confrontational mood I've bought tons of things on Ebay and was only burned once- luckily it was less than a $10 purchase.

For stuff under $25, I don't lose sleep on Ebay & paypal is usually pretty good in getting your money back. I buy alot of things on Ebay if I can't get them cheaper or find them anywhere else online. After buying & selling for a few years, you kind of get an instinctive feel on things, especially shill bidders. I'd say 90% of the time when nothing is bid on a 7 day auction till day 3 o4 4 and then suddenly 5 minutes later a second bid comes in raising the first, minimum bid, its a shill bidder. The only way basically to win an auction on Ebay is in the last 10 seconds as any other bid, unless you know you won't have access to a computer, will only achieve raising the price up and not winning the auction. Generally if something looks too good to be true & the seller has little or no feedback, is from a foreign country, etc., its a rip off. The problem is Ebay basically encourages this as they don't do anything immediately & continue to let the seller (or nonpaying buyer) continue to operate on Ebay.

If money isn't a factor for someone, I wouldn't bother with Ebay at all. If it is, between Amazon.com, Nextag, CNET, Ebay & other places online, you can get a much lower price then retail. When I bought my Harmony Remote 2 years ago, it was retailing even at the biggest discount store in LA, for $225 & I got one new online for $125 including shopping, which at the time was a great deal. I wouldn't buy anything over $500 on Ebay & I'd be leary over stuff like TV's unless I could pick them up in person.

Again the biggest warning sign on Ebay is the idiots who use the words "sold as is", refurbished, powered up. I thik if one excercises common sense, Ebay is a good option to use.

[EdwardGein]

Ebay Item 5869619814 Denon 3801 Just listed in excellent condition This guy sounds like a sure thing I'm guessing if you emailed him and offered him $400 including shipping, he'd take it. If he didn't he'd be a sucker as he'd be saving selling costs, the hassle of selling it,
& he'd need to sell it for around $435 with closing costs to make your $400. Good luck

[topspeed]

Good grief, there's a lot of scary information in this thread. Where to start...

Regarding the 3801; this was a great avr...5 years ago! This is not saying it isn't good now, just that there are sooo many better units available. Progress marches on, you know? It doesn't have DPL2 (which smokes DPL), the DAC's are outdated, smaller power supply, and most importantly there is no auto eq, likely the single biggest improvement that the manufacturers have offered in the last decade. Contrary to EG/Herson, don't trust your ears to calibrate your system. At minimum, use a RatShack analog SPL meter and the AVR's test tones to ensure correctly matched levels. Most will get a test disc from DVE or Sound & Vision and then calibrate while paying attention to correction values (it's not as hard as it sounds). Auto-eq allows you to simply place the included mic in the listening position and let the AVR calibrate all of your speakers. Some work better than others, but all work better than no SPL meter at all. I can't stress enough how important calibrating your rig is if you want to maximize performance.

Another thing is that the 3801 most certainly doesn't produce 105wpc with all channels driven. There is a website (Secrets of Home Theater?) that tests avr's and unless it's a midfi or better manufacturer like Rotel or B&K, they almost never produce rated wattage. My guess is that it's producing something more like 50-60wpc w/ all channels driven. This isn't that big of deal in the grand scheme of things as watts are overrated and more marketing anyway. Remember, it takes twice the watts to affect a 3dB increase in volume which is barely perceptible. Your speakers are an easy load so I wouldn't be that concerned with "high current" claims from any manufacturer. Anyway, I'd strongly suggest you get a modern avr, especially one with HDMI switching if you either have or are planning on adding HD and/or HD-DVD or BluRay.

Personally, I'd only buy from an authorized dealer, whether A or B stock. Any other situation means no warranty. Keep in mind, these things aren't exactly built like they were in the '70's. Plus, they are heckuva lot more complex these days and as Mercedes and BMW will attest, the more complex you make things the more likely they are to break down. Finally, please don't demo a unit from a dealer and then buy it online. That's just wrong.

Regarding dvd players, your choices will depend a lot on which you hold more dear: video or audio. For video, Panny, Sony, Yammie, and Pio all make highly rated units. Denon is very good too, although their Faroudja chipsets can cause minor macroblocking on some fpd's. For audio, Cambridge Audio, Yammie, and in partcular Denon, are a bit more reknown. Universal players have come waaay down in price with the Denon 1920 available for around $300. If you've even remotely considered diving into hi rez (SACD/DVD-A), just get a universal and be done with it. You may want to wait for the HD-DVD/BluRay debacle to clear up before you make your purchase as well (provided you have a HD capable display).

Good luck in whatever you buy. All three avr's, along with Yammie and Onkyo, are reputable manufacturers. As with the other poster, I'd be more interested in the features that best suit my needs as opposed to one having 10 or 15 additional watts.

Hope this helps.

[anamorphic96]

I agree with topspeed on the Denon 3801. That machine is way past it's prime compared to what you can get now. Plus you never know how the previous owner treated his gear.


Also Ed. The all natural stereo mode is not unprocessed as you say. It is completely processed. How do you think they get it into all 5 channels. They use a matrix decoding scheme.

All I want to say to orgasmdonor is take everything Edward Gein/Hershon says with grain of salt. He's a nice guy and likes to help. But does not understand the technology he is using that well. Therefore gives out alot of bad information that is not accurate.

[EdwardGein]

For once I disagree with you a little Topspeed, particularly on features. I'm sure there are plenty of other receivers as good if not better in regards to audio quality then the 3801 but not at a $400 price, albeit used. I did say that if he could get the Denon 3805 for $700 & had enough money to buy a decent DVD player too, he should do that.

In regards to stuff like auto eq & SPL settings etc., I'm not saying they might not be useful but for my ears, this stuff is totally useless, particularly SPL which sets DB levels, as they don't & can't account for ones ears (tastes, biasness & deficiencies). I originally used an SPL reading, twice, both digitally & regular-similar results) & someone on this forum helped me as well & for my ears I got better balance disregarding the results when I did it manually by trial & error without the SPL. The SPL basically makes the premise that a person will have the same perfect equal hearing out of both ears. Well I know unfortunately for a fact, I hear alot more out of one ear then another etc., & that's why the SPL results were not as good as when I set up DB's myself. In regards to EQ, I know what my ears like & on the Denons- albeit I'm not sure of what this EQ set up does, if I listen at an all 5 channel natural sound mode with the bass & treble both at +2, that's perfect for me. So I don't need that feature for the extra money. If money isn't a factor, I totally agree with everything you're saying but if it is a factor, to me these features aren't worth it. Don't know what DPL2 is so I can't comment there and I use my Denon just for audio features not video & I have a feeling DPL is video related, which I don't think this fellow is concerned about either. I agree with you about warranty but the bottom line, irregardless the receiver, would you rather have a used $1300 receiver that's a few years old in excellent working condition for $400 or would you rather have a new $1300 receiver with a warranty for $1300, if your money was limited.

Anyway, if you can give this guy any other alternative receivers that he can get for $400 that are better then the Denon 3801 receiver in terms of actual sound quality not features, either used or new, I'm sure he'll appreciate it. I can't think of any.

['QUOTE=topspeed]Good grief, there's a lot of scary information in this thread. Where to start...

Regarding the 3801; this was a great avr...5 years ago! This is not saying it isn't good now, just that there are sooo many better units available. Progress marches on, you know? It doesn't have DPL2 (which smokes DPL), the DAC's are outdated, smaller power supply, and most importantly there is no auto eq, likely the single biggest improvement that the manufacturers have offered in the last decade. Contrary to EG/Herson, don't trust your ears to calibrate your system. At minimum, use a RatShack analog SPL meter and the AVR's test tones to ensure correctly matched levels. Most will get a test disc from DVE or Sound & Vision and then calibrate while paying attention to correction values (it's not as hard as it sounds). Auto-eq allows you to simply place the included mic in the listening position and let the AVR calibrate all of your speakers. Some work better than others, but all work better than no SPL meter at all. I can't stress enough how important calibrating your rig is if you want to maximize performance.

Another thing is that the 3801 most certainly doesn't produce 105wpc with all channels driven. There is a website (Secrets of Home Theater?) that tests avr's and unless it's a midfi or better manufacturer like Rotel or B&K, they almost never produce rated wattage. My guess is that it's producing something more like 50-60wpc w/ all channels driven. This isn't that big of deal in the grand scheme of things as watts are overrated and more marketing anyway. Remember, it takes twice the watts to affect a 3dB increase in volume which is barely perceptible. Your speakers are an easy load so I wouldn't be that concerned with "high current" claims from any manufacturer. Anyway, I'd strongly suggest you get a modern avr, especially one with HDMI switching if you either have or are planning on adding HD and/or HD-DVD or BluRay.

Personally, I'd only buy from an authorized dealer, whether A or B stock. Any other situation means no warranty. Keep in mind, these things aren't exactly built like they were in the '70's. Plus, they are heckuva lot more complex these days and as Mercedes and BMW will attest, the more complex you make things the more likely they are to break down. Finally, please don't demo a unit from a dealer and then buy it online. That's just wrong.

Regarding dvd players, your choices will depend a lot on which you hold more dear: video or audio. For video, Panny, Sony, Yammie, and Pio all make highly rated units. Denon is very good too, although their Faroudja chipsets can cause minor macroblocking on some fpd's. For audio, Cambridge Audio, Yammie, and in partcular Denon, are a bit more reknown. Universal players have come waaay down in price with the Denon 1920 available for around $300. If you've even remotely considered diving into hi rez (SACD/DVD-A), just get a universal and be done with it. You may want to wait for the HD-DVD/BluRay debacle to clear up before you make your purchase as well (provided you have a HD capable display).

Good luck in whatever you buy. All three avr's, along with Yammie and Onkyo, are reputable manufacturers. As with the other poster, I'd be more interested in the features that best suit my needs as opposed to one having 10 or 15 additional watts.

Hope this helps.[/QUOTE]

[kexodusc]

FYI, because I know people love numbers...according to my old S&V mags -
Denon avr-3801 has 85 watts X 6 all channels driven
Denon avr 2803 has 75 watts X 6 all channels driven

That might contribute to a 1 dB difference in volume...maybe...one might have better sound quality by virtue of higher grade components. Couldn't tell you which one though.

I wouldn't put much stock in the "all channels driven" spec though. That's a bad spec that gets way too much publicity. If you're anywhere near needing those numbers, you should have a much larger amplifier anyway.

[N. Abstentia]

Go to Ebay & buy a used Denon 3801 for between $375- $450

I definately recommend against getting anything refurbished. Your asking for trouble.

.

Wait....you'll buy used from a stranger on Ebay but won't buy a factory refurbished unit from a dealer? Guh?