Surface noise, Deutsche Grammophone

[jbangelfish]

Just got a used copy of Bach, Organ Works, Helmut Walcha, organist on Deutsche Grammophone vinyl. This is the only DG vinyl that I think I have and if they all sound like this, I won't buy any more. The album looks like new and has as much surface noise as a very worn and scratched album. I noticed the date is 1960. Too old? Anyone else experienced this with DG recordings? It's on heavy vinyl, probably around 180g. The recording behind all the noise seems reasonably good but has too much noise to enjoy. I noticed at least one person mention DG as good and another as bad. Anyone else want to comment?
Bill

[Woochifer]

Most of my Deutsche Grammophone pressings date back to the 80s when they pressed LPs for jazz label ECM. All of them are immaculately quiet. Easily the best pressings I have short of Mobile Fidelity's half-speed masters or Sheffield Lab's direct discs.

The one bad DG pressing I have is a limited edition copy of The Who's "Who's Next." Not only did that copy have surface noise, but it also distorted as the needle moved towards the center ... a sign of a worn out stamper. Too bad, because I was just about ready to buy the entire limited edition Who catalog if the DG pressings were worth it. If the DG name alone was enough to justify an entire limited edition run of The Who's (among other rock artists) catalog, that should tell you something about 1) how revered DG is among some vinyl enthusiasts; and 2) how bad the pressings were for most pop music (MCA, The Who's label, made some especially horrific sounding records until they got their act together just before the CD debuted).

[jbangelfish]

I guess I'll chalk it up to a bad example of what DG had to offer. If I'd known that it was pressed in 1960, I might have steered clear anyway. Things seemed to get a lot better in the 70's and 80's.
Bill

[Woochifer]

I guess I'll chalk it up to a bad example of what DG had to offer. If I'd known that it was pressed in 1960, I might have steered clear anyway. Things seemed to get a lot better in the 70's and 80's.
Bill

DG would have my unequivocal rave if not for that bad pressing of "Who's Next." They did comparable limited edition runs for other artists, but after that one defective record, I steered clear. The ECM records I bought not specifically because they were DG pressings, but because I was interested in their artists and DG was their contract manufacturer (they'd used Warner before, and the DG pressings were a huge step up in quality).

Sounds like you just got a worn out or very dirty record. You can't always tell what's actually in the grooves just by visual inspection. If there's a lot of embedded gunk, it'll sound bad regardless of how clean it looks on the surface. A few sweeps from a Discwasher can make the surface of a record look very polished if it didn't have a lot of surface abrasions. But, it won't do much for the sound if the gunk is deep into the grooves.

You might want to hunt out a local high end store that stocks record cleaning machines and see if they'll let you use it for a fee to clean that record. Some boutiquey used record stores also have their own high end record cleaning machines that they'll let customers use for a fee.

Otherwise, I think that LAST's deep cleaning fluid is probably the best affordable product out there for recovering really dirty records.

[skeptic]

Hi Bill. too bad about your DG pressing. I have the same recordings on a two cd set DG 453 064-2. Frankly, I'd prefer an all digital recording of Bach's organ works, something difinitive. I'm especially looking out for one with a better recording of the Passacaglia and Fugue in c minor and good recording of the Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue. I'm not exactly thrilled with this recording but of course the CD doesn't have any pops and clicks.

For some reason, my experience is that the vinyl DG used seemed particularly prone to static buildup which of course attracts dust. Normally however, DG makes excellent pressings. Sometimes a little bass shy but not usually. I've duplicated most of my favorite DG vinyl pressings on cd and I'm almost always happy with them.

Here is something really controversial at least in my house. I say that there is a lineal relationship between Dies Irae and at least 3 other themes, the Bach Passacaglia and Fugue, the Bach Toccata and Fugue in D minor, and the Paganini 24th caprice. The 12th century theme was a favorite of many composers including Berlioz, Liszt, and Rachmaninoff. The Liszt composition Totentanz is quite something and you can hear Dies Irae all through it. Did you get the RCA recording "The Reiner Sound"? Byron Janis gives a spectacular performance and the AR9s can jar my cd player if I'm not careful. It's also in the Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique in the witch's sabbath in the last movement. The Paganini 24th caprice seems to me to be the ultimate embellishment of it and there isn't a world class violinist worth his salt who doesn't have it immediately available in his repetoire to strut his stuff when the occasion arises. There are very famous variations by Rachmaninoff (the most famous) Brahms, and quite a few others. On the other hand, my musical friends say I don't know what I'm talking about...but then again what do THEY know?

[jbangelfish]

I wondered if the LP had been somehow glossed with something to make it appear new. This fear overcame me after listening to all the noise on it and I took it off. Whatever gunk might be on it, I don't want it all over my stylus. I think a good washing is in order but I suspect I'll never want to listen to it anyway. I haven't taken the step to buy a record washer yet and I don't know if I will. There are no high end stores in my area anymore and no record washers. Better get some cleaning solution as all I use is distilled water on the brush to dust them. As I said though, it seemed that the recording quality behind all the noise was probably very good. Too bad.
Bill

[jbangelfish]

I've found at least one organ CD that I'm happy with. It's titled Bach, Great Organ Works by Virgil Fox. RCA Victrola label, BMG dist #7736-2-RV from 1988. The pipe organ comes over very well on this one and Virgil Fox was certainly an amazing talent. Song list
Toccata and Fugue in D Minor
Little Fugue in G Minor
Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring
Now Thank we all Our God
Air For The G-String
Sheep May Safely Graze
Arioso (from Cantata No. 156)
Sleepers, Wake!
The only problem of any kind is a background hiss that must come from the master tape. Not enough to get in the way of otherwise great sound.
I have another Virgil Fox CD coming titled Encores on the same label
and also have the same recording coming on vinyl. It'll be interesting to compare the two. Age becomes an issue with alot of this old vinyl and the true Mint stuff gets hard to find. I'll let you know what I think of this CD, I would expect it to be of the same quality as the other RCA.
Two other recent CD purchases, Bach Organ Blaster, Michael Murray organist, TELARC digital #515638T from 1995. It's a compilation of various performances around the world. This guy reminded me of a pianist playing an organ and the recording is not so good. Bass comes across very well but into the mid and treble area and the sound is just wrong, Has an electronic sound to it and loses the effect of the pipe organ.
Another dissappointment was Bach/Glenn Gould, The Art Of The Fugue, Columbia/Sony from 2002.. I did not care for his playing style, jerky and piano like and again, the organ did not sound right. It seemed that you could hear the guy humming in the background, whether it was intended to be on the recording or not, I found it very annoying.
I'll keep buying up the Virgil Fox stuff as it hasn't let me down yet. I read somewhere that he did the first digital recording in the US in 1977.
Does that sound right to you? It is available on CD. Should pick one up but I put a higher priority on others as there were so many vinyl copies available at once. Picked up some Van Cliburn too but haven't heard them yet (RCA, red label vinyl). Christmas continues for me.
As to your controversy: I'll admit I'm just lost. Not enough of a classical student to jump into this one. I have listened to alot of classical lately and the more that I hear, maybe I'll find something of what you are talking about. I do not yet own "The Reiner Sound" but I'll watch for it. Most of what I've received so far in the mail has been Bach, organ music, I really enjoy his organ works and especially Mr Fox's interpretations of them.
The Van Cliburns are Chopin works and I'm sure I'll enjoy them too as long as the vinyl isn't too noisy. Love that minor stuff.
Bill

[skeptic]

Here's a Virgil Fox disc for you to watch for. It's just called "Virgil Fox" and it's on LaserLight (15 313), a label I wouldn't normally recommend. But this one's an exception. It was originally recorded in 1977 as a direct to disc by Bert Whyte of Audio Magazine fame. Its only flaw is a very slight hum but you have to listen carefully to hear it. It has an excellent performance of the Bach Toccata and Fugue and a lot of other pieces you don't always hear. The Widor Toccata from the fifth symphony caught my ear and I guess it caught a lot of other people's ears too because I understand it's being used a lot as wedding music. I think 1977 was a little early for digital recordingsbut who knows?

How are you enjoying your AR9s? Have they started living up to your expectations yet?

[Woochifer]

I wondered if the LP had been somehow glossed with something to make it appear new. This fear overcame me after listening to all the noise on it and I took it off. Whatever gunk might be on it, I don't want it all over my stylus. I think a good washing is in order but I suspect I'll never want to listen to it anyway. I haven't taken the step to buy a record washer yet and I don't know if I will. There are no high end stores in my area anymore and no record washers. Better get some cleaning solution as all I use is distilled water on the brush to dust them. As I said though, it seemed that the recording quality behind all the noise was probably very good. Too bad.
Bill

I remembered that the LAST record preservative tended to give records a bit of a sheen, but that stuff actually helps to reduce surface noise (but they recommend that you deep clean the record before you apply the preservative) and it does not accumulate on your stylus. But, as I said, the DG pressings are pretty glossy looking already even without any cleaning. If you don't have any high end shops available to do a vacuum machine sweep, then you might want to order the LAST power cleaner. It only costs about $35 for the bottle and applicator, but it's still cheaper than a cleaning machine!

I don't buy a lot of used records, so I primarily stick with a carbon fibre brush for everyday cleaning or the Discwasher D4 for records that have accumulated some gunk.

[jbangelfish]

I'll watch for the CD but don't think I've seen one yet. Most of Mr Fox's work appears to be on vinyl and it's getting old. I think he died in 1980.
Probably his best years would have been in the 40's and 50's but when I saw him in the 60's, he was still an amazing talent. He became quite popular in the 70's with live shows mostly in the US and made many great LP's during this period. I'm trying to buy all of them and probably have about 75% of them already.
I was leery of the 1977 CD, being the first digital recording in the US (or so they say) but for $5 or so, I'll take a chance. Being the perfectionist that he seemed to be, it should be as good as was possible for the day. His analog recordings seem to be of very high quality (so far) so it's just a matter of finding them in good shape which is the biggest challenge.
Listened to the Van Cliburn, My Favorite Chopin, RCA Red Seal #LSC-2576. Pressed in 1961, I was pleasantly surprised at how clean and clear this old LP is. The seller said they were in excellent shape and he was right. Pretty remarkable, considering their age. Not bad for 1961. Most of these old albums are on heavier vinyl much like audiophile recordings of today. I don't know how much better this makes them but if nothing else, seems to prevent warpage.
As for the AR9's, I'm enjoying them very much. The missing treble that I had with 901's is appreciated. Don't have to turn it up so loud to hear everything. They really sound nice with anything that is well recorded and will certainly let you know if it is not. I'm not ready to tear into them yet with any mods. They are in such great condition, I hate to think of taking them apart, drilling holes in them etc. At least for now, I'm very happy to listen to them the way that they are.
Bill

[jbangelfish]

I'm guessing that there is something on my DG album to cover it's flaws. Either that or it's one helluva bad recording. When I asked the seller about it, he said that it played as new for him. He said that he adjusts his system to reduce surface noise (you'd have to drop the top 10k or so off this one). If all LP's played like this one, I'd never buy another. I think I only paid a buck or two plus shipping so it's no great loss. The fact that it looks so good and sounds so bad, I don't think any cleaning or anything else could help it although when I get some actual cleaning solution, I'll take a whack at it. From your earlier statements, I'd have no problem buying DG's but might avoid the seller who had this one.
I have another question for you... I have an audiophile digital remaster of Cat Stevens, Tea For The Tillerman which needs to go back to Music Direct. The hole is off center which creates a warble or wobble in the playback. If not for this, I probably could not send it back but aside from that, the sound quality is not as good as the original analog version. I waited a few months for it and the cost was around $35. Do you have any experiences such as this?
I had a few conversations with a young recording engineer over at Arsenal, the vintage speaker site. He claims that analog is far superior to digital and only uses digital because he can't afford the 20k to buy analog recording equipment. Obviously, this young fellow is not in the mainstream of the recording industry but what would you make of his statement?
Most of my favorite LP's are pure analog and most of them would have been made during the 70's. I also own some very new LP's that are very high quality and I would just assume that they are digital although I really don't know. I have a Telarc digital master of the 1812 Overture and while it's not my favorite music, the recording is excellent. Any thoughts?
Bill

[ipk]

Just got a used copy of Bach, Organ Works, Helmut Walcha, organist on Deutsche Grammophone vinyl. This is the only DG vinyl that I think I have and if they all sound like this, I won't buy any more. The album looks like new and has as much surface noise as a very worn and scratched album. I noticed the date is 1960. Too old? Anyone else experienced this with DG recordings? It's on heavy vinyl, probably around 180g. The recording behind all the noise seems reasonably good but has too much noise to enjoy. I noticed at least one person mention DG as good and another as bad. Anyone else want to comment?
Bill

The answer apparently is quite simple - cost savings.

LP manufacturers started using a smaller quantity of vinyl when stamping an LP.
All of my older LP discs - e.g. Deutsche Grammaphon, "Columbia" 360 series, London -- are thicker. You can confirm this by holding an older vinyl LP by the opposite edges, and rapidly raising the vinyl up and down - hardly any movement. Try doing the same with a newer disk from DG or Sony CBS, and you will see that the platter wiggles like a computer floppy disc without its casing.

What this means is that a thinner disk allows for easier movement of mini air bubbles, entrapped in the vinyl, to move to surface, become small pits, which cause popping.

Then again, maybe the raw liquid vinyl wasn't mixed well enough?

For whatever the above is worth, I am, at the moment, playing a newer Deutsche Grammophon recording (138 907), of Johann Sebastian Bach organ pieces (Karl Richter),
on a Bang & Olufson turntable. Absolutely no background noise or popping.

[danw]

I recommend the recently released CD/DVD "The Bach Gamut Vol 1." recorded in 1975 at St. Mary's Cathedral in San Fransisco. It was a live concert but to my ears it is much better than the Laserlight recording. It is not a digital recording but the analog was probably the best available at that time.

dan

[Pat D]

Hi Bill. too bad about your DG pressing. I have the same recordings on a two cd set DG 453 064-2. Frankly, I'd prefer an all digital recording of Bach's organ works, something difinitive. I'm especially looking out for one with a better recording of the Passacaglia and Fugue in c minor and good recording of the Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue. I'm not exactly thrilled with this recording but of course the CD doesn't have any pops and clicks.

For some reason, my experience is that the vinyl DG used seemed particularly prone to static buildup which of course attracts dust. Normally however, DG makes excellent pressings. Sometimes a little bass shy but not usually. I've duplicated most of my favorite DG vinyl pressings on cd and I'm almost always happy with them.

Here is something really controversial at least in my house. I say that there is a lineal relationship between Dies Irae and at least 3 other themes, the Bach Passacaglia and Fugue, the Bach Toccata and Fugue in D minor, and the Paganini 24th caprice. The 12th century theme was a favorite of many composers including Berlioz, Liszt, and Rachmaninoff. The Liszt composition Totentanz is quite something and you can hear Dies Irae all through it. Did you get the RCA recording "The Reiner Sound"? Byron Janis gives a spectacular performance and the AR9s can jar my cd player if I'm not careful. It's also in the Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique in the witch's sabbath in the last movement. The Paganini 24th caprice seems to me to be the ultimate embellishment of it and there isn't a world class violinist worth his salt who doesn't have it immediately available in his repetoire to strut his stuff when the occasion arises. There are very famous variations by Rachmaninoff (the most famous) Brahms, and quite a few others. On the other hand, my musical friends say I don't know what I'm talking about...but then again what do THEY know?

I have Helmut Walcha playing some Bach organ music on LP, DG Archiv 198 305, and it sounds quite good. It does have a bit of surface noise but I have had it for decades and have played it quite a lot, so it may well be just a bit of damage acquired in use. I think he did a good job on the Passacaglia in c, but don't have it on CD. I do have some Bach pieces on CD with Walcha and am satisfied with the sound. Walcha is perhaps a bit solemn and straightforward, but that is Bach, after all, and there is a certain grandeur to his renditions.

The best recording of the Passacaglia I have heard is with Michael Murray on the Great Organ at Methuen, Telarc CD-80049. It's an early CD and short, 39:59 on my machine. But the sound is really fine and the registration includes the 32 foot organ pedals which will give your AR-9s woofers a work out.

Isn't the Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue, BWV 903, written for harpsichord? There is a fine recording on The World of the Harpsichord, George Malcolm, harpsichord, London 444 390-2

The "Dies irae" is also in Rachmaninoff's Isle of the Dead, an excellent performance of which is included on The Reiner Sound.

[danw]

I have the complete 12-CD set by Helmut Walcha and I highly recommend it. IMHO, most of the more recent complete Bach editions are mostly bland academic interpretations and Walcha is still the most original. A few reservations: It does not contain the Vivaldi transcriptions or many which are of questionable authorship. The box set does not come with liner notes.

About Fox- His complete discography for both CD and LP is listed at www.virgilfoxlegacy.com. I dont think the Laserlight recording is his best although I have heard it sounded better on LP (The Fox Touch 1 & 2). There was a recent reissue of his first recordings from the 1940's and another at the Wanamaker organ. I recommend both.

dan

[jbangelfish]

Haven't been here much for some time, busy summer I guess. Since I began this thread, I have collected about everything that I could find of Virgill Fox, nearly all vinyl. The Crystal Clear D2D's are probably the best overall and have the deepest bass. D2D's are short but their lack of compression makes them sound great.
Next, I'd have to say that the Helden Label captured it best. After that, I'd pick the RCA's which seem to have less compression than Capitol or Columbia which almost eliminate the bass completely. I found a sealed copy of The Digital Fox on vinyl and the bass is present but does have a digital sound to the rest of it. Didn't bother with the CD. Fox recorded many on the Angel label and they are usually noisy as most people say, too bad as they didn't seem to compress too heavily. The Deccas are live recordings and while they are good recordings, the crowd noise is a distraction to me.
Mr Fox does have some interesting commentary on them and talks about his "interpretations of classical music". Old school musicians thrashed on Fox for wild interpretations of classical pieces and that you can't change what Bach wrote, etc. He says that these people are full of crap and I agree with him. His incredible abilities allowed him to accomplish more than his contemporaries and predecessors on the organ and I believe that most, if not all of them, would not have had the ability to do what he did. I think Bach would be proud of him. Old world organs were much harder to play and playing "ala Virgil Fox" would have been impossible on them. Modern technology made it easier to change registrations and even to press the keys and pedals which allowed Fox to become the modern virtuoso that he became.
Bill