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  1. #1
    AR Newbie Registered Member
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    Question Where to Begin Upgrading

    I would like to start upgrading my system. I listen mostly to classical and jazz music. About 75% of the time I am listening to vinyl, the rest of the time is CD. The system gets used occassionally for video(DVD), FM. or tapes. I have a pretty nice room about 20x 25 that has pretty decent acoustics (carpet - thick wood paneling). Don't need massive power.

    The system I have now is a mixture of some old (OLD!) stuff and some slightly less old stuff. Despite its age it still all works and sounds pretty good, but I would like to start improving the sound and moving a bit into this millenium. And surely some of this stuff I have will die someday!

    Here is what I have:
    Turntable - Connoisseur BD2-A (Ford era) (motor and suspension replaced 2 times)
    Cartridge - Shure V15VxMR (circa GW Bush 1st term - stylus new)
    NAD - P2 Phono pre-amp (circa GW Bush 2nd term)
    Integrated Amp - NAD 320CBEE (same age as phono amp)
    Speakers - Dynaco A35 and A50's (Nixon era!)
    CD - Philips CDR 775 (hmmm Clintonesqe)
    Tuner - Denon TU 280 ( guessing 10 +yrs)
    Tape - Onkyo - (Reagan era...definitely)
    Wires and Interconnects - Signal Cable (1 year old)

    I recently went to a local audio dealer who features Jolida products, and not surprisingly the set up there sounded fantastic. I had my heart set on getting a tube amp of some sort, and Jolidas don't require a 2nd mortgage. But his suggestion was to start with upgrading speakers as he said that the other improvements (amp or turntable/cartridge) would be hard to notice if still using my old speakers. The Oskar Heils he had there were tempting.....

    At the same time, however, when I did upgrade my wires/interconnects not so long ago, the difference in quality was instant and obvious even with my ancient speakers ( I replaced some Monster wire). So maybe some other component would make a difference.

    Anyone have any thoughts on what would be reasonable to do first? I don't mind uprading about one component per year and spending a reasonable amount for it. Just can't do it all at once.

    Where would you begin?

  2. #2
    Audiophile Wireworm5's Avatar
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    Not knowing your equipment and where the weakest link is I would start at the source. Being that your into vinyl I would start with a good TT and cartridge. The reason for this is in my experience, I was beginning to get bored with the sound and I was contemplating an upgrade in speakers. But after reading some posts on this in other forums I decided to upgrade my source first. Although the source wasn't the most expensive unit I could find it was considerbly better than what I was using. My speakers came to life with this new source and I realized with this purchase that there was nothing wrong with the speakers, in fact I can't imagine a speaker sounding better than what I have, even though I know there is, for lots more money. With a new TT you'll be able to compare with your other sources and should be able to tell if its made any difference. If so then you know this was a weak link. If can't hear a difference between sources knowing you have a good source than the weak link is either your amp or speakers or both. Next I would uprade your amp/receiver don't be cheap here. Get the best you can afford keeping in mind your future speaker requirements, even cheap speakers will sound better with good clean power. And finally the speakers, something compatible with your amp/receiver.
    Someone who is familiar with your gear will probably suggest a more specific approach.
    Just sharing my 2 cents,Good Luck.

  3. #3
    Can a crooner get a gig? dean_martin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadyave
    I would like to start upgrading my system. I listen mostly to classical and jazz music. About 75% of the time I am listening to vinyl, the rest of the time is CD. The system gets used occassionally for video(DVD), FM. or tapes. I have a pretty nice room about 20x 25 that has pretty decent acoustics (carpet - thick wood paneling). Don't need massive power.

    The system I have now is a mixture of some old (OLD!) stuff and some slightly less old stuff. Despite its age it still all works and sounds pretty good, but I would like to start improving the sound and moving a bit into this millenium. And surely some of this stuff I have will die someday!

    Here is what I have:
    Turntable - Connoisseur BD2-A (Ford era) (motor and suspension replaced 2 times)
    Cartridge - Shure V15VxMR (circa GW Bush 1st term - stylus new)
    NAD - P2 Phono pre-amp (circa GW Bush 2nd term)
    Integrated Amp - NAD 320CBEE (same age as phono amp)
    Speakers - Dynaco A35 and A50's (Nixon era!)
    CD - Philips CDR 775 (hmmm Clintonesqe)
    Tuner - Denon TU 280 ( guessing 10 +yrs)
    Tape - Onkyo - (Reagan era...definitely)
    Wires and Interconnects - Signal Cable (1 year old)

    I recently went to a local audio dealer who features Jolida products, and not surprisingly the set up there sounded fantastic. I had my heart set on getting a tube amp of some sort, and Jolidas don't require a 2nd mortgage. But his suggestion was to start with upgrading speakers as he said that the other improvements (amp or turntable/cartridge) would be hard to notice if still using my old speakers. The Oskar Heils he had there were tempting.....

    At the same time, however, when I did upgrade my wires/interconnects not so long ago, the difference in quality was instant and obvious even with my ancient speakers ( I replaced some Monster wire). So maybe some other component would make a difference.

    Anyone have any thoughts on what would be reasonable to do first? I don't mind uprading about one component per year and spending a reasonable amount for it. Just can't do it all at once.

    Where would you begin?
    Start with (1) speakers, then (2a) phono preamp and (2b) cd player according to which one makes the biggest difference to you.

    Some speakers that I've heard with NAD amplification and like are Paradigm, both monitor and studio series depending on your budget, NHT, Acoustic Energy and Vandersteen. (I haven't heard the Oskar Heils you mentioned.) I like Acoustic Energy with jazz and B&Ws with classical, but there are tons of great speakers out there I haven't heard. Take some time to audition the brands recommended here and others you might discover.

    If your turntable is still carrying its weight, you should probably keep it. A high-end analog rig is relatively expensive these days and the budget models may not be as good as what you have. Audition a tube phono preamp and see what that does. Jolida makes one and your dealer might let you try one for a weekend. Although some tube phono preamps are very expensive there are some reaonably priced ones out there. This might be the best way to get a taste of tubes in your system.

    You might want to stick with NAD for a cd player. I heard a C542 with NAD amplification the other day that sounded very pleasing - very analog-like. The speakers were Paradigm Monitor 3s. I listened to the same cd in a home theater system in the same room with a dvd player, Anthem amp and the Paradigm Studio 40s. The system with the monitors sounded better to me. I attributed that to the amplification and dedicated cd player. Another alternative is a tube cd player like the Jolida 100A. (Again, check with your dealer for a home demo.)

    Your amp is relatively new and even though tubes are tempting you might want to try to maximize its performance by upgrading elsewhere before abandoning it. (Of course it has probably retained its value relatively well so you could sell it and dive into tubes head first, but try these other things first, especially if you can get a home audition or trial period with full refund on return.) Good luck!

  4. #4
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    I agee; start with the speakers

    I owned Dynaco speakers, (A25), for several years. They are severly overrated, IMO. There are many fine speakers out there, especially if you are willing to spend over a grand.

    If you don't listen at very high volumes and given you listen mainly to classical & jazz, consider a Magneplar model. The MG 12's are just over US$1000; the MG 1.6's are the fabulous for around $1800.

  5. #5
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    In my experience, change in speakers would significantly improve the system. Also, upgrading items which would not be changed/upgraded often such as wall power socket, power chords, etc, could be worth thinking as high priority.

    Good luck.

  6. #6
    Sgt. At Arms Worf101's Avatar
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    Red face I concur on the Dynaco's

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    I owned Dynaco speakers, (A25), for several years. They are severly overrated, IMO. There are many fine speakers out there, especially if you are willing to spend over a grand.

    If you don't listen at very high volumes and given you listen mainly to classical & jazz, consider a Magneplar model. The MG 12's are just over US$1000; the MG 1.6's are the fabulous for around $1800.
    I own a LOT of vintage speakers and have tried about everything under the sun. I had some A-25 once and got rid of them immediately. Very unimpressed, much happier with the same vintage offerings from A&R and Epicure. If you upgrade to a "modern" speaker and do nothing else, you'll be amazed at the difference in sound reproduction.

    Da Worfster

  7. #7
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Whether upgrading or...

    ...starting from scratch, loudspeakers should always be the first choice made IMHO...Any amplifier choice will be based on the power requirements of the loudspeakers; everything else will simply fall into place based on features, etc.

    Do keep in mind, there may be features/functions on your older gear that you will not find on the newer stuff(thanks in a great part to the HT crapola)...modern two-channel gear that is on a cost/performance par with your older stuff is pretty much non-existent you will probably have to go to higher-end stuff which means snobby "salons" and higher prices due to lack of competiton. There's just a lot more plastic and fewer features to be had now.

    Speakers will probably give you the biggest bang-for-the-buck while your existing components will give you the familiarity required to evaluate the new speakers on their own merits. That's they way I'd go.

    And wire?...please, don't get me started...suffice it to say well constructed ICs and properly gauged speaker wire needn't be expensive. Even Monster is hype-priced.

    jimHJJ(...good luck...)
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  8. #8
    RGA
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    Well Oskar does have a following but on the speaker front I would really do a lot of listening - Oskar isn't going anywhere - so I preach patience and listening here. Listen to several others and you may find one you like better -- OR - you may find that you end up liking the oscar's more. Chances are that if a tube amp can drive it then the speaker is relatively easy to drive which means it is probably higher sensitive and or higher efficienct and they "tend" to be speakers I personally prefer.

    Wading through all the companies and possible combinations is no small task especially when you've been out of the game for a while. I know nothing of your turntable but it seems you have a good cartridge and I would probably say that unit is fine -- check the vinyl asylum http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/bbs.html for more information about it.

    I am not much of a fan of the 320Bee and that would be the first thing I'd be getting rid of. I know it got good reviews but I heard this against some other amps and I think it's a real sore point. I don't know your speakers but if they use foam surrounds they may just need a re-foaming job done on them which might only run you $150.00 for both speakers. I also know that many of those older speakers used Alnico drivers which are not nearly as good as the ones being built today and various issues can crop up with those

    You may decide that new speakers are in order but I'd still be careful here because if your speakers were highly prized in their day then they will probably, if spruced up a bit, be serious competitors for most stuff currently made today. Indeed if you go to the vintage forum of Audioasylum there may be driver replacements that can be done -- SEAS has come along way as well and is one of the top driver makers (SEAS was in Dynaco No?)

    I find that many new speakers have a more focussed localized placement of instruments -- you know where they are located on the stage better than say My Wharfedale Vanguards but while you know better where the instruments are perhaps they also sound less likely the intended instrument (timbral accuracy) and many have peaky respionse right in the midrange where most of the music is located.

    Also as another tube option to Jolida is Antique Sound Labs - the Aq1003 has some more features and may be suitable for you as well. And you may be best served to look at the used market where you can save quite a bit of cash.

  9. #9
    Forum Regular Swerd's Avatar
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    Most of your gear seems very good with the possible exception of the speakers. Because it has been years since I heard Dynaco speakers, I searched Google and found this interesting site http://home.indy.net/~gregdunn/dynaco/components/speakers/ . This page is an interesting read because it shows out how fashions in speaker design change with time.


    Dynacos were a very respectable design that sold well in the 70s. All models were variations of a 2-way design with a 10" woofer and a 1.5" (later a 1") dome tweeter. The cabinets used an aperiodic vent, a "patented (essentially non-resonant) woofer design utilizing a highly damped vent (not a reflex port) whose acoustic resistance is very carefully controlled." This is still a good design by today's standards. On the other hand, I don't believe that tweeters of the early 70s were as good as those made since the 90s. That may be one clear disadvantage that the Dynacos have. Crossover designs have also made very large improvements in the last 10-15 years because of the availability of computer-aided design software that was unavailable back then.

    From the photos on this page, I can't tell whether the surrounds of the woofer are polyurethane foam or rubber. Foam usually rots in about 20 years and must be replaced. Rubber surrounds can last longer, depending on the composition of the rubber. If your speakers have foam surrounds, that could account for severely impaired performance. This is repairable. See the bottom of the page.

    A big point made about the Dynaco speakers was the use of large 10" woofers and the emphasis on smooth and deep bass response. They probably achieved that - in spades. Today, a 2-way speaker with a 10" woofer and a 1.5" dome tweeter is rare and may not be made at all. That combination is likely to have a big hole in its midrange sound. Most 10" speakers just cannot produce sound above 1000 Hz, and most (1") dome tweeters cannot produce sound below 2000 Hz. Today no 1.5" dome tweeters are made, and I don't know how low they might go, but I doubt they could have bridged the gap. This may be the reason for poor impression that some others have described in their posts. Today, because of the availability of separately powered subwoofers, most 2-way speakers have 5 to 7" mid-woofers, which can combine more successfully with a 1" dome tweeter.

    So if you go and listen to new speakers, you will probably notice a big difference in the midrange. It may at first seem to you that these speakers are excessively bright sounding. But fashions (and technology) are always changing.

  10. #10
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Looking at your equipment, I would agree with the others that you should first consider speaker upgrades. Depending on your price point and preferences, speakers are where the biggest changes have occurred since your Dynacos' era. Go ahead and audition some at your local audio stores, you might like what you hear.

    The other change that I would look into is the room acoustics. If you have wood paneling, that's actually a reflective surface, especially if it forms a smooth surface. Smooth hard surfaces tend to reflect at high amplitude and depending on your speaker alignment, can smear the imaging and make the sound harsher.

    Since you mostly listen to LPs, you should also look into switching out the cartridge. The Shure V15 is a fine cartridge, but you might find a moving coil cartridge more transparent with better detail in the highs. With a MC cartridge, the phono preamp also makes more of a difference.

  11. #11
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...starting from scratch, loudspeakers should always be the first choice made IMHO...Any amplifier choice will be based on the power requirements of the loudspeakers; everything else will simply fall into place based on features, etc.

    Do keep in mind, there may be features/functions on your older gear that you will not find on the newer stuff(thanks in a great part to the HT crapola)...modern two-channel gear that is on a cost/performance par with your older stuff is pretty much non-existent you will probably have to go to higher-end stuff which means snobby "salons" and higher prices due to lack of competiton. There's just a lot more plastic and fewer features to be had now.

    Speakers will probably give you the biggest bang-for-the-buck while your existing components will give you the familiarity required to evaluate the new speakers on their own merits. That's they way I'd go.

    And wire?...please, don't get me started...suffice it to say well constructed ICs and properly gauged speaker wire needn't be expensive. Even Monster is hype-priced.

    jimHJJ(...good luck...)
    Actually, with vintage gear the price points compared to HT receivers are actually very similar. The difference is that in inflation adjusted terms, what you could buy before with two-channel gear counted for a LOT more money in real dollars. Consider that the Marantz receiver that I grew up with cost $600 in 1976. In today's dollars, that equates to about $2,000. For that amount of money, you can buy a VERY nice two-channel amplifier/receiver with more power and far more rugged build quality than that vintage Marantz.

    If you want to compare what $600 will today to what you could buy 30 years ago, then you need to deflate the dollar equivalents. $600 in 2005 only equates to about $165 in 1976 dollars. If you think back to the types of systems that $165 bought you back then, the options definitely don't look too good compared to what $600 will buy today.

    Agree with your other points...

  12. #12
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    Thanks for the advice

    Just a note on the speakers. The Dynaco A25, that I got from a college friend who designed stereo equipment. He was a sort of a teen-age wunderkind designing equipment for a company called Dayton-Wright, which I think was a high-end company back then. (He was the only guy I know who had Magnapans in his dorm room..this in 1978) He tweaked my speakers, changing the cross-overs and wiring (didn't understand at all what he did then or now!) which makes them sound better (or at least different) than other Dynacos A25 I had heard. I also have the Dynaco A50's that have two 10 inch woofers, and same SEAS tweeter. Their sheer size make a larger soundstage, more bass - but not as sharp of the A25s.

    In answer to some other comments, the surrounds on the A25 are rubber and are still in perfect shape. Amazing after 30 years.

    I also tried Wharfedale 8.2 speakers on the system which were too bright and went back to the Dynacos (but as one person said - perhaps they were fine but tastes have changed on sound). But that experience gave me some idea of what I would not want.

    I appreciate all the advice. Lots of food for thought, and good to be brought up to speed on what is out there, and what it will take to improve upon what I have. Sounds like it will take a fairly signficant investment to get components of the same calibre as the ones I will replace.

  13. #13
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    You listen to vinyl a lot so one of the first things I'd do to your system is replace the phono preamp. I don't know the model number but I tried a NAD phono stage and it wasn't much better than phono inputs of a receiver. If you don't want to spend much I'd recommend the Creek, I get the numbers mixed up but I think it's the OMB-8. It's a small Class A phono stage that costs under $200.00 and it is hard to beat. I had to really spend some money when I upgraded from that one in order to reach a marked improvement in sound. Next would be the CD player. There has been a lot of improvement in digital playback since your piece was made. You might even just consider an outboard DAC and continue to use the Phillips as a transport. I'm not familiar with your speakers but if they are bad, that's another good improvement. I hold the the concept of improving your sources and work toward the speakers but I guess in your case that would depend on how bad those old speakers really are.

    If you want to compare your phono preamp see if the store you deal with will let you audition something. If not, www.amusicdirect.com has several models in a wide price range and they offer a 30 day return policy.

  14. #14
    RGA
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    Would you be willing to build a kit? You can build mostly an entire chain from the same company -- from DAC, to amp to speakers. http://audionotekits.espyderweb.net/

    If you found the Wharfedale bright you're going to find a great many using metal drivers even brighter. I suspect the Wharfedales sounded brighter more because they lack bass - when something lacks bass the ear notices the treble more. None of these sub $500.00 speakers are anything really very listenable. There are certainly many that are better than others and by all mean if you were looking for a sub $200.00 speaker I would recommend the Paradigm Atom at $350.00 maybe the B&W 303. I recommend as do many pro-reviewers and other forumers speakers they thing might be the best out of what they have heard at a given price point -- but really none of them are all that wonderful.

    If I'm in your shoes and the speakers you own work -- then I hold off until I can get something really very good and a total upgrade -- not something that has much less bass or doesn't sound full or sounds bright. I owned a very nice set of $300.00Cdn speakers. When I upgraded it I went to a $2300.00US set of speakers. There were some at $700 which were better but not better enough that I would be truly satisfied in the long run -- there were some at $1500.00 which were better enough but hgad power hog problems.

    If I could go back in time I would have done .....

    You want make sure you avoid that sentence. I recommended the 8.2 for what it is a nice speaker in this price class --- recommending stuff to OTHER people and actually ponying up your own cash to buy something is not the same thing. In absolute terms not considering price with about a 100 speakers I've heard over the last 15 years There are probably 6 speakers that I would actually buy from the list - and maybe 30 others that I would recommend to varying degrees.

    The 8.2 is a very very very well reviewed speaker -- my point is that despite the reviews what you heard was not all that impressive -- you have learned lesson #12 well....make sure you apply it to every other review you read. I like the speaker as well -- but not for me to own I recommend it to OTHER people.

    You have to decide if you want a speaker that will entertain and PLEASE you or one that may be deemed by a magazine as superior but may end up irritating you immensely.

  15. #15
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    No disbuting taste, but ...

    My recollection was that my Dynaco A25's sounded "muffled": certainly lacking in detail and rather dull. As a matter of interest, I replace them with AR 7's in about 1972, so my memory isn't exactly fresh of the A25. On the other hand, my mother still has A10's that I bought for her around that time; admittedly they are an easy, even pleasant sound but far from accurate. I found the bass very loose by the standard I've become used to.

    Do some serious listening. Your taste might, in fact, change. I don't know the Warfdales you listened to, so maybe I'd find them bright too. But once your become used to more genuinely resolved detail and more accurate tonal balance, these qualities become very additive.

  16. #16
    Forum Regular risabet's Avatar
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    Start at the Source

    I believe, and you'll get a lot of differing opinions regarding this, that the source is the most important aspect of a system. My premise being that if you don't get the signal off/or out of the source, you are never going to replace it down stream.

    Linn LP-12 (Origin Live Advanced PS w/DC Motor) Benz "ACE" medium output*TAD-150*Tube Audio Design TAD-1000 monoblocs*Parasound CD-P 1000*NAD 4020A Tuner*Velodyne F-1000 Subwoofer*Toshiba SD-4700 DVD*Motorola DTP-5100 HD converter*Pioneer PDP-4300*Martin-Logan Clarity*Audioquest cables and interconnects* Panamax 5100 power conditioner

  17. #17
    Forum Regular hifitommy's Avatar
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    dynaco

    i had a25s and liked them a lot. they needed more in the top so i added a philips dome above 10k and it opened them up nicely. realistically though, you probably need new speakers for the front and keep the dynacos for rears (which dont really need an extended top end). also, you could make a nice second system with them, theyre not easy to find in good original shape.



    good contenders would be any of the canadians like psb, paradigm, energy. lotsa bang for the buck. stereophile, in the august issue, reviewed B&W 603s3 at $1000 that might fit your needs nicely. i am not so sure that heils would serve you well.



    i would try staying with the nad you have but consider a move later after you hear what its like with new speakers. making too many changes at once can muddy the water too much. this seems like a politically well oriented system to me.
    ...regards...tr

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