AR.com KITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[oddeoowphil38]

Hey people I have noticed something about the AR.com kits. The description claims that the kit comes with "Premium" crossover components. But, when I look the compnent prices up separately by all accounts I would not call it "premium". For example, the "assembled" crossovers use Solen Poly Fast Caps which cost $2.35 each. Madisounds own 16 awg "Sidewinder" inductors are used with the .3mH costing $3.55 each, the .4mH costing $4.00 each, and the 2mH costing $9.45 each. So where are the "Premium" components??? Hovland 4.7 micro-farad caps cost $27.20 each. Furthermore, the Goertz .3mH inductors cost $7.05 each. Using the Hovland and Goertz components would be what I would call "Premium" crossovers. Just out of curiousity, has anybody here payed more money to have the crossovers assembled with the Hovland caps and the Goertz inductors??? Or has anyone used better quality crossover components than what comes with the AR.com kit??? If so, how much more did you have to pay??? Was it worth the extra expense??? The kits do come with the Eagle resistors which are of a very good quality. I bet if the better quality and of course more expensive crossover components were used this would actually take the AR.com kit to a higher level of performance. Am I right??? Please elaborate.
Phil

[kexodusc]

Hey people I have noticed something about the AR.com kits. The description claims that the kit comes with "Premium" crossover components. But, when I look the compnent prices up separately by all accounts I would not call it "premium". For example, the "assembled" crossovers use Solen Poly Fast Caps which cost $2.35 each. Madisounds own 16 awg "Sidewinder" inductors are used with the .3mH costing $3.55 each, the .4mH costing $4.00 each, and the 2mH costing $9.45 each. So where are the "Premium" components??? Hovland 4.7 micro-farad caps cost $27.20 each. Furthermore, the Goertz .3mH inductors cost $7.05 each. Using the Hovland and Goertz components would be what I would call "Premium" crossovers. Just out of curiousity, has anybody here payed more money to have the crossovers assembled with the Hovland caps and the Goertz inductors??? Or has anyone used better quality crossover components than what comes with the AR.com kit??? If so, how much more did you have to pay??? Was it worth the extra expense??? The kits do come with the Eagle resistors which are of a very good quality. I bet if the better quality and of course more expensive crossover components were used this would actually take the AR.com kit to a higher level of performance. Am I right??? Please elaborate.
Phil

You can open a real can of worms here on this subject. I've used Goertz, Hovland etc, so called "premium" xo parts. I liken this to the exotic cable debate. Do $200 cables sound better than $2 ones? There are no measurements, or evidence of any kind that suggests performance improves as you spend more on xo components. Period. I don't believe in the "Golden Ears" that say they hear differences but then fail to prove it when put to the test. Tolerances are often tighter as you spend more money, but a $25 cap is rediculous IMO. Besides, for DIY'ing most of us have multi-meters/LCR meters to measure and match anyway.
. I don't think it hurts at all to spend a bit more money as the cost of your drivers increases, but expecting audible performance difference is hoping for too much IMO. Keep in mind those Solen/Madisound components ARE high quality. The crap I've found in my old Paradigms and Wharfedales was much cheaper grade. Lower tolerances. (yet the speakers still sound okay, hmmm).

My general rule of thumb is that the crossover should cost no more than the price of one of the drivers you're using...but that's not scientific. If an inductor is 4.3 uF and DCR is equal, it doesn't matter how much it cost or how much marketing BS you put into selling them, it's 4.3 uF. Electrons don't know the difference. Buying the supposed higher quality makes sense if it doesn't skew the overall cost of the project...in the case of the AR.com's, it wouldn't provide any real benefit and would increase the price substantially.

In my studio towers, I used higher grade components because my drivers cost over $100 each. Buy components that fit the budget of the project. If you were to substitute a Solen cap for a Hovland though, , you wouldn't even know it most of the time.

I think a lot of these so called "premium quality" xo parts are sold to the unknowing, wanting-to-believe-they-are-better crowd. A 1000% increase in price for a 0.5% is a tough sell in my books.

[oddeoowphil38]

Well I do not mean to open a can of worms. Just something I noticed. When I use to manage a car audio shop I noticed that some of the better caps used in the outboard x-overs seemed to make a huge difference on how the compnents sounded in a car environment. I figured the same would hold true with respect to the home environment. These were some from the Boston Acoustic Pro Series which does use higher quality comonents in their x-over designs. Yes, they are quite expensive as well. I am sure the components used in the AR.coms are better than a lot out there but I bet using the Hovland Caps and the Goertz Inductors would significantly improve the clarity of the sound and tighten the bass some. Now for most people maybe this probably is no big deal to them. I was just curious if anyone ever really had done that and to what extent did the sound improve. No big deal really. Personally, I have found no big difference in speaker wire as long as you use at least 14 awg wire on longer runs and 16 awg on shorter. But, I do believe better quality caps and inductors can make a significant difference in most good crossover designs. Even if the tweeter only cost $30 dollars and the cap cost $35. In the end I think it is here where better quality and more expensive components can take a speaker to the "next" level. This is solely my opinion and based on my own observations and experiences. Nothing scientific just good old fashion critical listening. Anybody else out there come to the same or similiar conclusion??? Speak up and feel free to enlighten us.
Phil

[kexodusc]

When I use to manage a car audio shop I noticed that some of the better caps used in the outboard x-overs seemed to make a huge difference on how the compnents sounded in a car environment. I figured the same would hold true with respect to the home environment. These were some from the Boston Acoustic Pro Series which does use higher quality comonents in their x-over designs. Yes, they are quite expensive as well. I am sure the components used in the AR.coms are better than a lot out there but I bet using the Hovland Caps and the Goertz Inductors would significantly improve the clarity of the sound and tighten the bass some. Now for most people maybe this probably is no big deal to them. I was just curious if anyone ever really had done that and to what extent did the sound improve. No big deal really. Personally, I have found no big difference in speaker wire as long as you use at least 14 awg wire on longer runs and 16 awg on shorter. But, I do believe better quality caps and inductors can make a significant difference in most good crossover designs. Even if the tweeter only cost $30 dollars and the cap cost $35. In the end I think it is here where better quality and more expensive components can take a speaker to the "next" level. This is solely my opinion and based on my own observations and experiences. Nothing scientific just good old fashion critical listening. Anybody else out there come to the same or similiar conclusion??? Speak up and feel free to enlighten us.
Phil

With car audio I found the exact opposite, crossover quality never shone through. The environment in a car is always the limiting factor IMO.
If the specs are the same (and even close) it isn't possible to have any difference revealed in terms of clarity. The crossovers direct the electronic frequencies, phase and amplitude, but don't introduce distortion, or contribute to resolution...that limiting factor is the speaker itself.

You're paying for tighter quality control, more durability and less variance when you increase crossover component quality. But for most DIY-ers, it's easier to do the QC yourself and save $20 bucks or so on each component. It only take a few seconds.

For proof I'd submit two pairs of the AR.com's I have now...the first pair uses caps by UCC and some $15-$35 premium Solen inductors...I was given the caps and I had a few inductors left over from some other projects....The next two pairs I built just have the Madisound XO components. I can't hear a difference.

I think if anyone can make a claim that sounds better they better be able to back it up and explain why. Otherwise there's no reason to believe the crossover component changes have any impact. A few years back there was a huge flame war over this.
The tolerance ranges of these drivers are such that they don''t benefit much from higher grade components. I'd be spending at least $80-$90 on a driver before spending $50 on a crossover. The drivers are good mid-level units, but would be the weak link in the chain. You'd be much better off to spend that money on buying even better drivers. Better drivers and basic crossovers will sound better than cheaper drivers and premium crossovers. Premium drivers should be mated with premium crossovers.
.
It's really a funny discussion much like cables (well, not quite as bad as cables). It always comes down to someone making a claim that there is a difference. But then they fail to prove or show why there's a difference, and in dbt's can't even tell using their own equipment.

FYI: Hovland and Goertz are very generally considered mid grade components, the first step above house brands. You can go much much higher. Don't know why you all of a sudden can claim these are premium quality, have you used them? Solen and Bennic for example offer far better components that can cost hundreds of dolloars...a bit rediculous IMO.

[oddeoowphil38]

I agree Kex but on our down time when business was kinda slow my installers liked to experiment with differents things. Most of the time both of them like to do different things to their own out board x-overs that came with their own set of components used in their own vehicles. We would use some less expensive and some considerable more expensive components to see what effect using less or more expensive components had on the sound. We all three agreed that there really was no difference when using even less expensive components . As you have already alluded to most x-overs with respect to car audio use very cheap parts. We even found some even cheaper believe it or not. Most high end components do use better x-over parts especially the Boston Pros. When we replaced the caps with much more expensive caps there was a significant difference in sound quality. At least to us there was. Personally, I thought the tweeters to be much more pure and extended and the upper midbass much more articulated and defined. The caps we used were not hovland and I dont remember which brand to be honest, but I do know they were considerably more expensive than what I usually ordered for the store. Maybe just using a better quality cap for the tweeter can make in some cases a significant difference. Same way goes with the inductors for the mid. Now as far as measuring we did not have that kind of equipment to do that. But I do know that the twweter sounded much more refined with the more expensive caps and the bass tightened up somewhat. The caps were in the $16 range and the inductors were in the $12 from what I remember off hand. My installers knew a lot more about the x-overs than I did because both were in school and one is 2 classes shy of having a Bachelors Degree in Electrical and Mechanical Engineering. The other attends ITT TECH and is studying Electrical Eng. Technology. They both have good soldering skills. So it was easy for them to change components in and out. They are no experts by any means nor am I. These were just our own observations. I was just curious if using more premium quality components in the AR.com kit would yield similiar results. If so, then it might be worthwhile to some people that already own the kits to change out a few of the components and have even better sound. Kex the funny things is this----I have dug a little deeper in to this about component quality and found one "expert" saying he believed that the caps is what makes all the difference with respect to hifi whereas another so called "expert" believed it is the inductors or coils used. So I do understand what you are alluding to and from what I see I agree. However, a few things I noticed via my own observations has made me more aware that good sound usually comes with good x-over components and great sound comes with even greater x-over components. It just boils down to the same old addage-is it really worth it???? That my friend is up to the indiviual to decide for himself. To me, I would not mind to use better quality components with tighter tolerances even if my drivers were only mediocre at best. Now would I pay rediculous prices no---why because I can't afford to anyways.
Phil

[kexodusc]

I think we're on the same page...

You can find three excellent designers, one will say caps, one coils, and the other neither, as being the area to spend extra on in the speaker. The thing is, we can't dismiss the testament of people with years of experience when they tell us "premium" components make a difference, but at the same time we can't prove they do in measurements. I believe that there's more to a speaker than we can measure so far, but when it comes to caps and chokes, its just LCR. There's nothing else to it. And for me, when someone says something makes a difference, I think the burden of proof lies with them to support their clames tangibly.

I think perception has a lot to do with it too. If you're using mid level Seas drivers like the ones in those Linbrook speakers you like, it's probably easier to sleep at night knowing you use the same relative level of quality components in the crossover (even if you aren't 100% sure they're worth it). At least you can sleep well at night knowing the system is roughly the equivalent grade throughout.

Most people I know match component quality (read: price, quality is superb in even cheap parts) to the cost of the speaker system. Probably not a bad way to go. A few really brilliant designers I know don't see any reason for it, providing you can measure the components yourself to verify degree of accurayc. I just can't imagine why anyone would drop $100 into xo parts with $150 in drivers. I think most would agree $200 in drivers and $50 in xo parts should yield better results.

[oddeoowphil38]

Very well said there Kex. I agree whole heartedly. Could not have said it any better myself. Have a great evening.
Phil

[oddeoowphil38]

Hello people I am finally back on line. The last couple of weeks have been hard on me. That is, lets just say I have been having internet "withdrawl" if you know what I mean. Anyways, after conversing with Ed Frias with respect to this post I have now recounted my question. Ed has brought it to my attention that if I was to change his original X-over design via using better/more expensive components will result in changing the over all balance of his design. In a two-way balance is critical. So anybody here thinking about changing Ed's design be sure to take this post in stride. Once again, I want to thank Ed and Kex both for their help. It has been much appreciated.
Phil

[poneal]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MESE%3AIT&rd=1

They use the madisound prebuilt crossovers. I made my own cabinets using Ed's specs. IMHO, my boxes are a lot prettier than those they sell at madisound. Just a thought if you want to check it out. Regards, Paul.