Hardboard..............what the_ _ _ _????

[oddeoowphil38]

I read one of the professional reviews of the Paradigm monitor 5 and the article claimed that only the reference series uses MDF. So I dug a lilttle deeper and under the "Technology" tab it does say the non-reference speakers are made of "high density hardboard". The article referred to this as nothing more than particle board. Is this true? It was an older review but surely Paradigm at least uses MDF with a thickness of no less than 5/8" thick???? Particle board is no where near as good as mdf. Personally, I believe 1" HDF would be ideal. Anybody know more about this? Please speak up cause I am literally in shock.....lol. Thank you for your time.
Phil

[N. Abstentia]

Do you really think your $200 Titans are made of 1" MDF?

Paradigms Monitor & Performance line are budget lines, so like 99.9% of the speakers in this category they are made from high density particleboard which is fine. It's more than likely the same stuff as the floor in your house. Do don't think twice about walking all over it day in day out, right? It's fine.

Do you really think you could hear the difference in the wood? Believe it not, you DON'T want to hear the wood. As long as the cabinet is built and braced properly you will never know the difference. The cabinet is only 1 piece of the equation also. The drivers, crossovers, and overall design are far more important than the wood that's used.

No need to be in shock, it's industry standard. If you want to worry about something, worry about those MTX speakers!

[Selvyn]

What's wrong with particle board ? The only requirement for cabinet material is that they be as dense as possible and, in a perfect situation, not vibrate at all.

[oddeoowphil38]

Do you really think your $200 Titans are made of 1" MDF?

Paradigms Monitor & Performance line are budget lines, so like 99.9% of the speakers in this category they are made from high density particleboard which is fine. It's more than likely the same stuff as the floor in your house. Do don't think twice about walking all over it day in day out, right? It's fine.

Do you really think you could hear the difference in the wood? Believe it not, you DON'T want to hear the wood. As long as the cabinet is built and braced properly you will never know the difference. The cabinet is only 1 piece of the equation also. The drivers, crossovers, and overall design are far more important than the wood that's used.

No need to be in shock, it's industry standard. If you want to worry about something, worry about those MTX speakers!

No never thought my Titans were 1" mdf but I figured they at least were made out of 5/8" mdf. Particle board does worry me. The idea is to have a cabinet as acoustically inert as possible. True, any speaker in the $200 price range is gonna have some trade offs. Just surprised me a lilttle about the particle board used in the peformance and monitor series. BTW, I am getting rid of my MTX towers asap. And, I will be upgrading my speakers in the very near future as well. Be reassured the speakers I go with will be made out of at least 5/8" mdf if not 3/4" or 1".

[oddeoowphil38]

Oh forgot to mention I did not pay $200 for my Titans and I bought them brand new. Not even close to $200.

[Peter Duminy]

It is not quite as bad as it sounds. Here is a list a enclosure materials we tested when I was with the BBC Loudspeaker Research Dept in England a number of years ago.




I am not sure if anyone remembers the old Mission 70 Model. It was a "shoebox" type design made of particle board, and was only 0.25" thick, but with a super large block of acoustical foam for internal damping. Sound was remarkable for the price, and became a classic. IMHO, it is more how the material is implemented, and then damped internally.

[N. Abstentia]

Be ready to shell out a couple of grand if you want speakers made out of 1" MDF. You won't find any in the price range of the Titans..which I hope you didn't pay much over $200 for.

[oddeoowphil38]

Be ready to shell out a couple of grand if you want speakers made out of 1" MDF. You won't find any in the price range of the Titans..which I hope you didn't pay much over $200 for.

Couple Grand? Are you kidding me? The Ascend cbm-170 uses 5/8 " mdf and Home Theater Direct uses 3/4 mdf for their level 3's and neither or near two grand. Polk uses 3/4" mdf on their Rti series. Do you mean HDF? Aperion Audio uses 1" HDF for most of their speakers. Medium Density Fiberboard is somewhat expensive but not that expensive. Even Fluance uses 1/2" mdf on their speakers. BTW, paid considerably less than $200 for my Titans.

[N. Abstentia]

Well, sounds like you answered your question yourself. Go out and buy some Aperion Audio speakers since they use 1" MDF and you like the sound of 1" MDF.

[oddeoowphil38]

Well, sounds like you answered your question yourself. Go out and buy some Aperion Audio speakers since they use 1" MDF and you like the sound of 1" MDF.

Well dont think so.....lol. I never heard the Aperions was just mentioning them. Hey btw, thanks for the info on other posts you seem to know a lot about home audio. Personally, I believe mdf is truly a must in speaker design. The thicker the better. The higher density the better. But as you alluded to earlier, the denser the fiberboard and the thicker it is cut in to sheets also has a larger cost factor as well. Guess speaker design is all about trade offs one way or another.

[Geoffcin]

Well dont think so.....lol. I never heard the Aperions was just mentioning them. Hey btw, thanks for the info on other posts you seem to know a lot about home audio. Personally, I believe mdf is truly a must in speaker design. The thicker the better. The higher density the better. But as you alluded to earlier, the denser the fiberboard and the thicker it is cut in to sheets also has a larger cost factor as well. Guess speaker design is all about trade offs one way or another.

It's the construction. Bracing, and how it's implemented makes all the difference. When you look at a speaker like the B&Ws that uses the Matrix bracing, the acoustic inertness of the box becomes greater than if it was made out of concrete. I just recented got a look inside a speaker that I'm reviewing and the bracing is designed so well you could drive a truck over these things.

[oddeoowphil38]

It's the construction. Bracing, and how it's implemented makes all the difference. When you look at a speaker like the B&Ws that uses the Matrix bracing, the acoustic inertness of the box becomes greater than if it was made out of concrete. I just recented got a look inside a speaker that I'm reviewing and the bracing is designed so well you could drive a truck over these things.

Yeah bracing......hmmmmm never thought about that one. So I guess reinforcing the cabinet is just as important as anything else is with respect to reducing cabinet vibrations. Thanks for the info.

[RGA]

This was written about a while ago on AA. It's the design -- I have heard my speakers in a chipboard version a Russian birch Ply front and back MDF wrap version and an all Plywood version -- the order of sound quality is the order posted -- there was an all MDF version they tried which was utter crap according to the designer. Most good speakers are not made from MDF according to those other posters --- Real woods were measured to have better internal voids reduction or some such hoopla.

I agree with the others here and would suggest it's more about implemtantation for the design under scrutiny.

[N. Abstentia]

And let's not forget..MDF is basically tightly packed cardboard. I actually used it for about a week to build custom subwoofer boxes back in the day when I had my car stereo business. Back then it was $40 a sheet, and rather hard to work with. I had problems with it splitting, so I went back to particleboard at $9 a sheet.

It does not matter what wood is used in the enclosure. All that matters is that it's made right.

[oddeoowphil38]

And let's not forget..MDF is basically tightly packed cardboard. I actually used it for about a week to build custom subwoofer boxes back in the day when I had my car stereo business. Back then it was $40 a sheet, and rather hard to work with. I had problems with it splitting, so I went back to particleboard at $9 a sheet.

It does not matter what wood is used in the enclosure. All that matters is that it's made right.

Thanks guys you all have been very informative. N. Abstentia I did not know you use to have a car audio business. I used to manage one myself. What brands did you carry just out of curiousity??? What brand or brands did you fine to be more reliable??

[yogo]

Personally, I've always found lead enclosures to be the best, totally inert.

3 inches thick or more the better...

[oddeoowphil38]

According to Gary Takeda at Paradigm they use a "considerably denser and of a higher quality hardboard not found in just simple particle board". This matierial is used on both the Performance and Monitor series. However, the reference series uses all MDF. Not sure of the thickness because Mr. Takeda did not mention it. So, again I guess it is more about how the cabinet is reinforced and/or braced than is the material(s) being employed.

[kexodusc]

oddeoowphil38:

A few points. In terms of density and price, 3/4" HDPB (high density particleboard) and MDF (medium density fibreboard) are about equal. For speaker applications, HDPB tends to absorb a bit more energy and could over-dampen a speaker, but it can be bought a bit cheaper than MDF of the same thickness. This is probably why Paradigm goes that route. Nothing wrong with HDPB at all.

As for HDF, I find it hard to believe that Aperion uses 1" HDF. That would be very expensive, very heavy, and over dampen a speaker to the point that acoustical energy would not be released by the cabinet. This is bad! HDF is NOT recommended for speaker cabinets.

5/8" MDF would be the thinnest I would ever use, no matter how much bracing. If you get a speaker with any dimensions over 10", I would use .75" MDF.. It's a bit more sturdy than HDPB and very easy to work with. I've built speakers with 5/8" MDF, .75" HDPB, .75" MDF, and 1" MDF, and helped build others with oak and birch plys. My personal preference for cost, sound and structural integrity is .75" MDF unless the speaker is greater than 30 litre volume, in which case 1" MDF.
Then Birch ply. Plywood doesn't sound any better IMO, and doesn't have a uniform consistency, but it is pretty dense and much easier to finish than MDF.

For subs, or speakers where you expect high output more often than not, 1" MDF is a good idea. 1.5" baffles don't hurt either.

As was mentioned, the choice of material isn't as important as the execution of the overall design. Good construction and bracing can go a long way towards making up for thinner cabinets.

[oddeoowphil38]

oddeoowphil38:

A few points. In terms of density and price, 3/4" HDPB (high density particleboard) and MDF (medium density fibreboard) are about equal. For speaker applications, HDPB tends to absorb a bit more energy and could over-dampen a speaker, but it can be bought a bit cheaper than MDF of the same thickness. This is probably why Paradigm goes that route. Nothing wrong with HDPB at all.

As for HDF, I find it hard to believe that Aperion uses 1" HDF. That would be very expensive, very heavy, and over dampen a speaker to the point that acoustical energy would not be released by the cabinet. This is bad! HDF is NOT recommended for speaker cabinets.

5/8" MDF would be the thinnest I would ever use, no matter how much bracing. If you get a speaker with any dimensions over 10", I would use .75" MDF.. It's a bit more sturdy than HDPB and very easy to work with. I've built speakers with 5/8" MDF, .75" HDPB, .75" MDF, and 1" MDF, and helped build others with oak and birch plys. My personal preference for cost, sound and structural integrity is .75" MDF unless the speaker is greater than 30 litre volume, in which case 1" MDF.
Then Birch ply. Plywood doesn't sound any better IMO, and doesn't have a uniform consistency, but it is pretty dense and much easier to finish than MDF.

For subs, or speakers where you expect high output more often than not, 1" MDF is a good idea. 1.5" baffles don't hurt either.

As was mentioned, the choice of material isn't as important as the execution of the overall design. Good construction and bracing can go a long way towards making up for thinner cabinets.

Thanks Kex for the info. Sounds like you know what you are talking about--well this time! Just kidding.........HaHa! As far as Aperion goes just mentioning what their website claims. 1" HDF sure is expensive and the finish that their speakers come with must also signficantly contribute to their cost as well. Personally, I have never gotten the chance to hear their speakers but they seem to be well received.