Where's the Prog?

[Mr Peabody]

I have been reading mention of these Prog festival style concerts and some of the Prog bands we talk about in concert but there is nothing in my area or in the Midwest at all to my knowledge and I was just curious as to what geographic areas seem to support this type of music? I personally don't see why some of the bands don't receive air play. Especially since one corporation in my city owns all the rock stations, where we going to go, why not experiment some and spread the music. Other than greed, I suspect some of the problem could be song length and not being able to push the band into a certain musical category like "Album Rock", "Classic Rock" or "Alternative". Now that I've said that, does Album Rock really exist anymore on the radio?

I'm afraid I may have put too many thoughts together, I mainly want to know if there are Prog concerts in your town, where do you live and where do you know of Prog surviving? I mean other than Kansas on the County Fair Circuit.

[ForeverAutumn]

When I go onto Web sites of the prog bands that I enjoy, especially the American bands, they don't seem to like to cross the border very much. If they do, they'll sometimes hit Toronto and/or Montreal, but those are generally the only Canadian cities that I see on the tour list.

Luckily, I live in Toronto! We probably get more prog here than in other parts of the country, but still, it's not nearly enough. Porcupine Tree is playing here tonight (but do to a last minute work obligation, I had to cancel my plans to go ). But The Flower Kings, who are currently on tour, are playing Rochester, NY on Friday which is only a few hours from here but are not coming here. They are playing in Quebec City and Montreal in a couple of weeks.

I'm on the email list for Progrock Records and get notified of all kinds of shows and events in California, but that doesn't help me much up here.

As far as festivals go, the ones that I am aware of are NEARfest which is in Pensylvania. ROSfest, also in Pensylvania. And Prog in the Park, in Rochester, NY. I've never been to any of them, although we discussed heading out to Prog in the Park last year (but couldn't make the date) and have also discussed it for this year (we'll see).

[kexodusc]

I think for the most part North Americans don't support Prog as much as other continents. I don't base this on anything scientific, just observations of where some of my favorite prog bands choose to tour and conversations with people about music when I travel abroad.

It seams mainstream USA only has a 3 minute attention span when it comes to songs...a lot of prog music doesn't work well in this template.

[Troy]

The prog thing is much bigger in yurrup. The classical influence is MUCH stronger there. They always were much more open to combining art and rock. Always has been that way.

Here in the US, the public doesn't want to bother with the length and complexity of the arrangements. Were ingrained with the idea that songs have to be 3 minutes long and they have to be simple and straight forward. It's only become moreso in the last 10 years.

We live in a time where rock itself is marginalized by all the other types of music out there. the rock that IS popularized is either gritty metal or weepy minimal singer songwriters.

Most prog bands are from over there. Touring in the US is expensive and daunting. The east coast (especially the northeast) seems to be where most of the prog tours stick a toe in the water. The west coast has regional acts like Spocks Beard, Mike Keneally and Camel that play lots of west coast dates, but generally, not many bands find their way out here either.

[Hawkeye]

The west coast has regional acts like Spocks Beard, Mike Keneally and Camel that play lots of west coast dates, but generally, not many bands find their way out here either.

Funny you mention Camel because as to the best of my knowledge they've played exactly one concert, (June 26th, 2003 in Santa Cruz, CA), on the west coast in the last 28 years. Actually that, along with three other dates, 28th in NYC, 29th at Nearfest, and the 30th in Alexandria, VA, which I was fortunate enough to attend, and that's it for US gigs since the late '70s or so. However it is true that Prog bands in general don't seem to have the impact in the US as they do elsewhere. Unfortunately, it probably does have a lot to do with a three minute attention span here, as mentioned.
Camel, Kevin Gilbert/Giraffe, The Flower Kings, Porcupine Tree (I have their live Nearfest bootleg from 2001), and a host of other great bands have all played at Nearfest in the past. This year its IQ, Frog Cafe and more...Really a shame Prog doesn't make more inroads here but maybe thats what makes them so loved by the 'proggies" in the first place.

[Troy]

Funny you mention Camel because as to the best of my knowledge they've played exactly one concert, (June 26th, 2003 in Santa Cruz, CA), on the west coast in the last 28 years.

Andy Latimer lives in Mountain View.

I saw Camel 3 times in the last 5 years at the Great American Music Hall in SF. All great shows. I'm sure oen of those nights was within a day or 2 of your Santa Cruz gig.

I understand that Latimer may be retired/done with music now, I dunno . . .

Porcupine Tree in SF June 8th . . .

[Hawkeye]

Andy Latimer lives in Mountain View.

I saw Camel 3 times in the last 5 years at the Great American Music Hall in SF. All great shows. I'm sure oen of those nights was within a day or 2 of your Santa Cruz gig.

I understand that Latimer may be retired/done with music now, I dunno . . .

Porcupine Tree in SF June 8th . . .

My bad. I didn't realize they played in the US other than than the few nights of their 2003 Farewell Tour. They even mentioned during the VA show that it was nice to be back in the States after 25 years. Although I knew that Latimer had been living somewhere in CA, I think he's in the process of, or recently has moved back to the UK.
Retired? He did threaten that but it sounds more like he was just resting a bit. A quote from Latimer from last month... "I'm writing material for a new Camel album as often as time will permit. I prefer to settle in to a definite period for writing, so I don't get distracted, but that's quite difficult right now, with the move to the UK being a rather large distraction. Still, I grab the moment when I can."
This is great news.


BTW, I recently picked up Camel bass player Colin Bass' cd from 1999 "An Outcast Of The Islands" Pretty good stuff, some of it sounding quite similar to Camel. No surprise there since Latimer and Dave Stewart play on a few of the tracks.


PT, SF, June 8th? Are you going? If so, enjoy and please review it, I'd love to read about it.

[Mr Peabody]

I have no Camel. I thought they were a defunct group from the 70's. What would be a good first album to check out?

[Hawkeye]

I have no Camel. I thought they were a defunct group from the 70's. What would be a good first album to check out?

Kind of depends on where your tastes lie. Their first few albums, 'Camel' 'Mirage' 'Snow Goose' and 'Moonmadness' we all quite typical of the '70s prog sound.
In a couple of their mid '80s albums, 'Single Factor' and 'Stationary Traveller' they were aiming for a sound similar to the early to mid '80s Alan Parsons Project. In fact Parsons semi-regulars David Paton (bass) and Chris Rainbow (vocals) were actually part of Camel around then, along with Mel Collins (the super smooth sax player who also appeared on Roger Waters and Richard Wright solo albums).
'Harbour of Tears' has a bit of an Irish prog sound; 'Rajaz' a bit of Middle East flavor. Both are very good. Their last cd, 'A Nod And A Wink' is quite good with Latimer's excellent guitar work throughout, often sounding quite like David Gilmour, IMO. Pretty much if you like Floyd, chances are you'll like a fair amount of Camel's material I would think.

Although I don't like every song on every album, there are enough gems on all of them to make any a worthwhile purchase. The cds can be a bit hard to find at times and do tend to run a few bucks more generally. I often will use Amazon and shop in the "buy new or used" section, still buy new, and save about 1/2 off the Amazon price. The reviews there may help you to decide as well.

[BarryL]

I have no Camel. I thought they were a defunct group from the 70's. What would be a good first album to check out?

Here's my recommendations:

1. Moonmadness. This is where I started with Camel, so it's a biased choice. Lots of swirly synethesizer and 70s prog/jazz cross-over. Lots of people have trouble with the lack of a good vocalist.

2. I Can See Your House From Here. Still lots of great prog, but with a more pop feel. Still obviously Camel.

3. Dust and Dreams (or something like that). Much more recent Camel which is totally or almost totally instrumental. Latimer shines on this album with his emotional guitar style.

Recently, Latimer moved to England, but it sounds like touring is over, but not necessarily recording.

[BarryL]

BTW, I recently picked up Camel bass player Colin Bass' cd from 1999 "An Outcast Of The Islands" Pretty good stuff, some of it sounding quite similar to Camel. No surprise there since Latimer and Dave Stewart play on a few of the tracks.

An Outcast of The Islands is a great CD for Camel fans. It's so Camelish that had it been a Camel album, nobody would have known the difference.

[Hawkeye]

Here's my recommendations:

1. Moonmadness. This is where I started with Camel, so it's a biased choice. Lots of swirly synethesizer and 70s prog/jazz cross-over. Lots of people have trouble with the lack of a good vocalist.

2. I Can See Your House From Here. Still lots of great prog, but with a more pop feel. Still obviously Camel.

3. Dust and Dreams (or something like that). Much more recent Camel which is totally or almost totally instrumental. Latimer shines on this album with his emotional guitar style.

Recently, Latimer moved to England, but it sounds like touring is over, but not necessarily recording.

All three are indeed excellent albums with Moonmadness being perhaps my favorite of all Camel releases. Interesting comment on people having troubles with (Latimer's) vocals, as it did take me quite a while to get used to them. No problems now though.


As far as future tours, I wouldn't be so sure that the touring is over yet..... This quote from Latimer is from the same source as the above quote.

"One special reason I am excited about going home is that we feel there could be a chance to tour again. It would be in small bursts, as opposed to a full- blown, 2 or 3 month tour, but some touring is better than no touring. We just might make it back to America, too. We all felt badly about having to cancel our last show in America, due to Denis Clement's heart ailment (Denis is doing great now). And, with a bit of luck, we might be able to return to Mexico to perform the show that was lost due to the promoter's inability to meet the financial deadlines, forcing us to abandon that part of the tour at the '11th hour'. There has been talk of working with a new promoter, under better circumstances. Of course, this is only talk, but that is how things get started." - Andrew Latimer

[Troy]

I have no Camel. I thought they were a defunct group from the 70's. What would be a good first album to check out?

Yeah, I guess most people thought they were defunct by the end of the 70s.

Many people in th eprog community consider them at the top of the second echelon bands. Mirage and Moonmadness are indespensible classics of the genre IMO.

By the 90s the remaining member (guitarist Andy Latimer) was releasing new Camel albums. Still arty and cinematic, but richer, lusher and more mature. None of the 90s albums are as good as the best of the 70s stuff, but each album has truly great moments.

[Mr Peabody]

Thanks for the input. I am a big fan of David Gilmour. Robert Plant has done some good stuff with middle Eastern musical accents. I'm not a huge Alan Parsons fan but I do like some. My favorite is Tales of Mystery & Imagination. The rest of his stuff sort of sounds the same. I use Amazon quite a bit as well for hard to find items. I got Michael Olfield's Tubular Bells 3, which new runs about $30.00, for under half that. I can't remember what I paid exactly but I know it was less than half through the "used" cd's. I was also able to buy some albums that are out of print the same way. I'll have to see if they have any Camel sound bytes. I've been disappointed that many Prog bands do not have sound bytes. I'd like to hear what Glass Hammer sounds like and a few others which I can't recall right now.

[Dave_G]

I like the new Camel music, like A Nod and a Wink, Harbour of Tears, Rajaz, and so forth, as opposed to the old school stuff.

But I have darn near every one of their releases and most of them are quite good.

The new stuff is pretty mellow and "sad", almost.

But still full of great guitar a la David Gilmore, kind of.

And also killer is the older concert dvd "Coming of Age".

Dave

[Hawkeye]

I'm not a huge Alan Parsons fan but I do like some. My favorite is Tales of Mystery & Imagination. The rest of his stuff sort of sounds the same.

Ouch. Being the Alan Parsons Project uber-fan that I am that hurts - just kidding ;-)
Tales...is a very good album, IMO, but I think the entire catalog is as well and I've worn out many vinyl discs to prove it. Actually the name APP is, in a way, kind of a misnomer as Parsons never penned anything but a few instrumentals and never sang lead vocals on any Project track. At any rate for a different sounding Parsons have you checked out his latest, (its his 4th post-Project) release - 'A Valid Path' ? Definitely doen't sould like the same old stuff. Its classified as electronica but I'd say maybe prog/electronica if there is such a thing. He even got David Gilmour to play on one track. Its a decent cd that should even sound much better in surround when the DVD-A is finally released. Originally it was supposed to be out by the end of last year, but last I heard it was postponed until sometime around mid 2005. I'll be seeing him play in a few weeks and should have a chance to ask him about it then. Check Amazon for some samples, though sadly the sample doesn't include any of Gilmour's contribution.

[Mr Peabody]

Well I ventured onto Amazon only to find no sound bytes for Camel and the cost ran $22.00 to 41.00. I can't go that for something unheard.

[Hawkeye]

Well I ventured onto Amazon only to find no sound bytes for Camel and the cost ran $22.00 to 41.00. I can't go that for something unheard.

Go back to Amazon and check out 'Moonmadness' Original Recording Remastered, with bonus tracks, for example. Scroll down to "51 Used & New" (today its 51 anyway). Select that and then scroll down past the used discs and you'll see a bunch, new, for less than $15, and even a couple for less than $10. Other cds had similar prices. You're right, no sound bytes though, just have to take our word on this... You'll need to add the cost of shipping to that, typically $2.49 per disc, I think. Stick with a seller that has a high satisfaction rating, I've used Caiman out of Florida many times without any problems. I believe Amazon takes your CC # and not the individual retailers so it should be quite safe.

[Mr Peabody]

I found a Camel compilation on Rhino for only $11.97. It has songs from Moon Madness, Mirage, Goose and one other. At least I will get a chance to hear a couple songs off the albums. If I get really into it then I will hunt for the album.