Religion channels overload

[Smokey]

I only get local channels (via antenna) and once a month, I usually do a channel scan on my TV to see if there are any new digital stations in my area. Last night I scanned, and there are two new channels in my area which bring total of channels recieved to 27.

But to my disappointment two new ones are religion channels which bring total local religion channels to 9. So out of 27 channels recieverd, 9 of them are religion themed including two that are in spanish. So I was thinking to myself as to why we need so many local religion channels?

And most of time, half of them running some type of program asking for money donation. And the new theme is that when you send in money, that will be your seed you planted (in your faith) that you can harvest later.

The notion is the money you send in, God will return it to you 10 fold later. Meanwhile the the viewer can do without the money they send in that they could have used to put food on table or buy shoes for their kids. Apparently if you don't send in money, God will not bless you or answer your prayers.

[JohnMichael]

Yes we need more distorted religion channels on TV. Now is when REM's "Losing My Religion" begins to play.

When I had faith or more accurately when I was a practicing catholic we were taught that our rewards will be in the next life and not in this one. Many protestant faiths teach that if you have faith you will be blessed with wealth and success. This is contrary to the life of Jesus. So whenever I hear about being rewarded ten times I instantly find it to be bull****.

All those channels spewing bull****.

[Smokey]

Many protestant faiths teach that if you have faith you will be blessed with wealth and success.

Or if you don't have faith, apparently you can buy it . Remember the "Sale of Indulgence" by the Pope anytime Vatican treasury got too low. Today, we're just seeing the updated version.

[JohnMichael]

Or if you don't have faith, apparently you can buy it . Remember the "Sale of Indulgence" by the Pope anytime Vatican treasury got too low. Today, we're just seeing the updated version.

Yes we used to buy time out of purgatory. No buying your way out of hell sadly. Purgatory was sort of the batters box to heaven. Time to remember past sins and suffer a little until you were fit for heaven. Of course while on the earth if you contributed to the church your time preparing for heaven would be shorter than someone who did not contribute. Of course any baby that was not baptised before death was also sent to purgatory. Sorry you stillborn you were not baptised so you stil carry original sin. Off to purgatory with you. Bullsh!t!

[Hyfi]

Buying your way has been around for a long time. Setting up shop on local OTA sub channels is a lot cheaper than cable and will reach less educated audiences who will send them their money.

I get about as many as you get on my OTA and watch sometimes just for the comedy they provide.

[RGA]

50% of the US population have an IQ under 100 (probably more) and TV is their source of news and information. The more you can brainwash the not terribly bright the more votes you can get for the religious nutter parties - the more money the churches get and the bigger and bigger they become. TV is the best source to advertise to sheep.

This says it all about religion Why Atheists laugh at religion - YouTube

1:51 seconds for Evolution for dummies - dummies like Stephen Baldwin Born Again Christian Stephen Baldwin vs Atheist Richard Dawkins - YouTube

Then the Priest trying to answer how 6 billion people all spawned from Adam And Eve in 6000 years.

There are people in this world who have engineering degrees and have half decent mathematics background who buy into this horse crap. Priest can't answer how all humans came from Cain and Abel - YouTube

[Woochifer]

I only get local channels (via antenna) and once a month, I usually do a channel scan on my TV to see if there are any new digital stations in my area. Last night I scanned, and there are two new channels in my area which bring total of channels recieved to 27.

But to my disappointment two new ones are religion channels which bring total local religion channels to 9. So out of 27 channels recieverd, 9 of them are religion themed including two that are in spanish. So I was thinking to myself as to why we need so many local religion channels?

And most of time, half of them running some type of program asking for money donation. And the new theme is that when you send in money, that will be your seed you planted (in your faith) that you can harvest later.

The notion is the money you send in, God will return it to you 10 fold later. Meanwhile the the viewer can do without the money they send in that they could have used to put food on table or buy shoes for their kids. Apparently if you don't send in money, God will not bless you or answer your prayers.

In a large urban area, you don't get that same ratio of religious programming for the simple reason that a large market size can support more OTA commercial programming. Religious programs are relatively cheap to produce, and the transmitters in smaller markets don't cost that much either. A commercial TV station that has to sell ad time and provide a full slate of TV shows and other programming costs much more to operate. A religious TV station just needs a board operator and a satellite dish. HSN used to simulcast on several OTA stations as well, until they moved everything to cable and online.

So, are you now gonna pony up and actually pay for your own cable service?

Yes we need more distorted religion channels on TV. Now is when REM's "Losing My Religion" begins to play.

When I had faith or more accurately when I was a practicing catholic we were taught that our rewards will be in the next life and not in this one. Many protestant faiths teach that if you have faith you will be blessed with wealth and success. This is contrary to the life of Jesus. So whenever I hear about being rewarded ten times I instantly find it to be bull****.

I would like to think that God's ways aren't that simplistic. Seems more a failing of human hubris to interpret a higher being's intent based on material wealth.

50% of the US population have an IQ under 100 (probably more) and TV is their source of news and information. The more you can brainwash the not terribly bright the more votes you can get for the religious nutter parties - the more money the churches get and the bigger and bigger they become. TV is the best source to advertise to sheep.

This says it all about religion Why Atheists laugh at religion - YouTube

1:51 seconds for Evolution for dummies - dummies like Stephen Baldwin Born Again Christian Stephen Baldwin vs Atheist Richard Dawkins - YouTube

Considering your obvious contempt for people of faith, I find it rather amusing that your broad brushed stereotyping here is also based on nothing more than a factually deprived leap of faith.

[RGA]

It's not that difficult to make quality guess as to these numbers - based on election results most of the time, Fox News Ratings, percentages of religious people in America (incidentally it applies to Canada or anywhere so I should not exclude the nutter there).

Subtract the non religious who vote conservative for entirely non religious views ratings such as their fiscal policy (although that may not make them any smarter!)

Add back percentages of Universities that almost entirely are left wing institutions (and their graduates), subtract the people who say they're Christian but who list only because they were born into a Christian family and don't really follow the teaching (ditto all other religious in name only folks)

Add in that 100 is deemed the mean IQ level which means half would be above that number and half would be below that number and 50% is a pretty reasonable guess. Indeed if the mean is 100 it means that half the people would be below 100. And that's the number I presented. University enrollment and the fat they overwhelmingly lean to the left/liberal side of the spectrum would indicate that more people in the above 100 camp are both university graduates, and thus tend more to the left liberal ideologies as do most of the professors. Which therefore means that more of the people below 100 are not. This was certainly what I experienced at University - with rare exception did I meet ultra right wing fanatics - one very nice Mormon fellow - he was intelligent enough to get into University but he did poorly in the classes I had with him - History where he was scraping by with C's and he was kicked out of the teaching program.

Of course there are smart people who have faith but as Dawkins noted that it takes a lot of brain gym and a willingness to shut one side of your brain off that uses reason to say "the heck with it I'll believe in the giant tooth ferry/tea pot in the sky for no valid reason whatsoever because a very weak book, the bible, passes as truth.

The entire religion is based on copying previous whack-job religions and it doesn't even make sense historically.

The God Who Wasn't There - 2 - Jesus Timeline - YouTube

Just compare the Jesus myth to the Oedipus, Romulus, Theseus myth stories of the time. They all follow a general pattern and granted people are brainwashed by their parents as soon as they can understand English but at some point you learn Santa isn't real.

The God Who Wasn't There - 3 - Raglan Hero Pattern - YouTube

[Hyfi]

]In a large urban area, you don't get that same ratio of religious programming for the simple reason that a large market size can support more OTA commercial programming.[/I] Religious programs are relatively cheap to produce, and the transmitters in smaller markets don't cost that much either. A commercial TV station that has to sell ad time and provide a full slate of TV shows and other programming costs much more to operate. A religious TV station just needs a board operator and a satellite dish. HSN used to simulcast on several OTA stations as well, until they moved everything to cable and online.

I think you need to check that first statement. I live just outside of Philly. All of our local stations and the UHF stations cater to the whole Philadelphia-South Jersey, and Delaware area. That is a very big market and there is no shortage of these channels on TV or the radio.

Poor people usually have that lower IQ RGA speaks of. Poor people are less likely to have a huge cable package. Poor people are more likely to buy into the whole story therefor are more likely to hand over what little money they do have with high hopes of getting into heaven or have God find them a better job or life. So where is a better market than a large urban area with lots of poor people? Yeah the whole Philly area and any other urban area. Just as many poor people live in Philly as live in Arkansas but that place is a whole other story.

[markw]

See here/ A bit smug, aren't we?.

[Feanor]

See here/ A bit smug, aren't we?.

It's notable that the guy who provided the IQ by country list could even figure out how to format it to one line per country -- or provide a source for that supposed info.

[Feanor]

...
I would like to think that God's ways aren't that simplistic. Seems more a failing of human hubris to interpret a higher being's intent based on material wealth.
...

This is easily explained if you acknowledge the premise that Man created God in his (Man's) own image, rather than the other way around.

[RGA]

Mark I don't know if your intent was to be funny but I found that hilarious you got us 98 to 97 and we're 23/24 in the world - LOL we suck.

But umm I am now living in Hong Kong and I have a Hong Kong Identity card - look where we finished - So THERE

To be serious though IQ is not quite what it's cracked up to being and it does tend to favor wrote memory and can be somewhat trained for. IQ tests tend to lean heavily on the logical mathematical and word knowledge relationships (vocab). In wrote memory countries like China kids memorize thousands of symbols - the symbol = a word. This memorization pattern makes it easier to remember mathematical formulas. Having taught grade 10 in China - the students were all very good in math. The retired Canadian Math teacher had the same group of students I taught - every student was getting an A in math after the first semester - In Canada in all his years of teaching that never happened. At best maybe 25%. But the end of the year the two students had a C+ or around 70% and the majority still had A's - some competed in the Waterloo math contest and finished in the top 5 (which include all students across Canada) and arguably they may have been able to win except there are word problems and without much English they could not understand the questions.

That said - they did poorly in Physical Education - same math teacher is also a P.E. teacher and has taken students overseas for volleyball championships. Coquitlam is a hot bed for Sports in British Columbia and maybe one of the very best in all of Canada producing the likes of Brett Lawrie, and Larry Walker and countless NHL players and swimmers, runners etc. None of those kids in China he would consider remotely athletic - one boy was decent at Basketball but that was it.

They don't have a lot of creativity or social awareness - to be fair though you might get shot if you're too creative or a "free thinker."

We've discussed the testing methodologies a lot in education and the popular approach is Gardner's Multiple intelligences Gardner's Multiple Intelligences

The only problem of course is that while we may accept the theory here the world is a giant business and the world doesn't value some of these intelligences as highly as others. One may only be strong at musical awareness or the visual arts which IQ tests don't value highly. And making a living in music is difficult. certainly talent isn't necessarily the thing that will make you financially successful. And one may be a terrific athlete but not quite good enough to make the jump to the big time. IQ tests don't value these "strengths."

Older IQ tests were meaningless - even racist with questions that were geared for people that came from a certain socioeconomic background and a certain literary background. The IQ tests of old would have questions referring to fairy tales or fables that you could only know if you grew up with parents who taught them to you. Thus it heavily skewed in favor ot the rich white family while all other groups did poorly because they had no reference or prior knowledge to be able to choose those A is to B as B is to C kind of questions.

It was a way to say that African Americans and First Nations people were not very intelligent and then to classify them as "lesser people" Numbers in all things are dangerous because if the test isn't valid then you can basically make all the claims you like - and gee you've got numbers on your side. This is always a problem when the people in charge don't know what they're talking about - in education it is almost never educators who are in charge of evaluating students but some dimwit in a totally different field ranting about standardized tests.

IQ also doesn't account for a person's "drive" or motivation. Further with Gardner a person may be very good on all of the multiple intelligences while a person with a higher IQ may be off the charts in mathematics and spatial awareness but could have two left feet, be completely tone deaf, throw like a 3 year old girl, can't draw anything except stick figures (guilty as charged) and be completely hopeless at inter and intrapersonal skills. They may have a 180IQ but they'll be yammering to themselves like the guy in a Beautiful Mind.

A great TV show for this is the Big Bang Theory - Sheldon is the off the charts IQ guy but in every other way is completely hopeless with social situations. Penny is obviously far superior on all of those social intelligences. As a result her character is the foil to the geniuses and arguably makes the show the continual award winner that it is. While Raj can't even speak to women unless he's drunk. So off the chart IQ but completely socially inept bordering on life crippling. So IQ is no longer really in favor.

The big bang theory - best conversation ever - YouTube

The Big Bang Theory - The Slippery Nipple - YouTube

[Worf101]

In getting back to the original premise of the discussion. Yeah... there's a LOT of OTA relgious channels out there. Some may be legit, and truly care about the suffering of "man" and his/her eventual salvation. Others are simply in it for the cash. Remember, as a "religious organization" they're tax exempt. They pay none. That's why every other store-front in the ghettor is some cheesey church... why? No taxes, cept for the rent, they get to keep it all.

Don't get me wrong I'm NOT anti-God, just anti-con job. Anti-Swaggert, anti-Falwell, anti-Rev. Ike, anti-Rev. Al, I dispise organized religion not God whoever he or she or it may be. As Laura Nyro once wrote...

"I was raised on the good book Jesus... till I read between the lines..."

Worf

[manlystanley]

To be serious though IQ is not quite what it's cracked up to being and it does tend to favor wrote memory and can be somewhat trained for.

I always enjoy reading your articles. I fully agree with all your points, that I understand, and accept the other ones that I don't personally know.

When my first three kids were growing up, all my friends were into raising 'brilliant kids". I remember one parent, after her son took an IQ test coming to us, in all sincerity, and explaining to us the burden that she felt to society. you see her son had an IQ in the top 2% in the world. This brilliant kid barely passed high school and flunked out of the first year of college. He is now pulling cable for a home security firm.

I always wanted "hard working children". I've stressed work ethic. Also, the number one thing, I think, that a person can do to ensure success is to become a world class communicator: both written and spoken. All five of my kids have (or are now doing) competitive speaking clubs. There is an old saying: a bad idea properly marketed is much more appealing then a great idea poorly marketed.

Best Regards,
Stan

[Smokey]

50% of the US population have an IQ under 100 (probably more) and TV is their source of news and information. The more you can brainwash the not terribly bright the more votes you can get for the religious nutter parties - the more money the churches get and the bigger and bigger they become.

I believe when it comes to religion, individual common sense is more of factor than level of IQ. Some of preachers on TV have PHD degree, but their view of Bible is still linger in dark ages.

I remember watching the movie Oh God! with George Burns as the God, and John Denver ask Burns (aka God) as to why there is so much misery in the world, and why you let it all happen. And the God said it is not me who let it all happen, it is the humans. He said humans have intelligence and common sense and it is up to you to help each other out, or you can choose to cut each other down.

If you look at books of world religion, they all basically say the same thing. It is when it get interpreted by humans that things go wary.

[RGA]

manlystanley

The problem with the brilliant kids is that Public education in Canada and I suspect it's just as bad if not worse in the States is they aren't designed for those top 2% kids.

In Canada provinces run the education system and they have X dollars to fund various things - there is ZERO funding for gifted children. Parents are completely on their own. Gifted is or should be classified as a Special Need because those brilliant kids are special and they require a different kind of program than the middle ground (try to catch most kids) program. The government here funds low functioning special needs students Autism, physical or violent needs kids. Indeed, the school I worked at in B.C. had a serious violent special needs students - they had to have two Special Ed workers follow him around all day - he never attended classes. But this is 2 $40,000 a year salaries to follow a kid who will never pass any subject and is possibly ultra dangerous - he stabbed a special Ed worker in elementary school.

Unfortunately, BC has a totally clueless right wing government that wants all schools to operate without losing money. So the schools of course have no chance to operate like that in the North Island - high heating bills, they generally have to pay a bit more to get teachers to work there and since funding is based on numbers of students when the High School has 450 students but the building still needs to be lit and heated there is far less money than a bigger district with 1800 students. So the school is paid to take in these kinds of violent students and they're kind of forced financially to take them in order to buy books or keep a decent computer lab.

The gifted kid is bored to tears - often become discipline problems because they're not challenged. Teachers in districts where most of the kids are weak tend to slightly lower the standards because if 4/5 of the class is failing it becomes a frustrating job very quickly. It's worse in the States as your job is on the line every year if the marks are low - but you can't learn the material for students - at the end of the day it's the teacher's job to teach it and the student's job to learn it.

Most kids can do well - it does come down to work ethic and several educational articles want wording changed when teacher's praise students (same for parents). Rather than saying "you scored 90% on that essay you must be so smart." it is better to say "Wow your "hard work" paid off look how well you did on your essay."

And getting that early is key because it is k-4 where most of the important stuff is taught - including work ethic. By grade 8 the weak students are giving up because their still at grade 2-3 English and math levels - they see Joe getting straight A's seemingly coming easy to him - well it does because he has all of the foundation skills. And this is why South Korean and Chinese kids are killing western kids on many of the foundational subjects.

Parents in South Korea make their kids work - and work hard. I taught 8-9 year old kids - grade 2. Typical week.

Go to Korean school from 8-2:30. Then come to English school from 3-6pm. Monday to Friday. 2-3 nights a week they would have piano or violin lessons and a private English tutor. They go to school every other Saturday from 8-1. Some would have Sunday school.

They had P.E. once a week with me for 1/2 hour that was the fun time.

But here's the thing - they didn't know any better - they were no missing anything - they were all bright happy and enjoyed coming to class. The sad part is they could write better than some of the grade 7 (13yr olds) in Canada and English is their first language. Depressing really.

[markw]

Mark I don't know if your intent was to be funny but I found that hilarious you got us 98 to 97 and we're 23/24 in the world - LOL we suck.

But umm I am now living in Hong Kong and I have a Hong Kong Identity card - look where we finished - So THERE:

So, now you want to try to deny you're a canadian? Just because of two lousy points on a chart? Well, you can take a monkey out of the jungle and put on a red jacket and a bellboy’s cap and put it in a city, but it’s still a monkey.

You’re still a Canadian, even though you seem to now want to distance yourself from them.: The way you cut and run in the face of this survey shows you've got all the integrity of an Italian cruise ship captain.

To be serious though IQ is not quite what it's cracked up to being and it does tend to favor wrote memory and can be somewhat trained for.Yada yada yada

… and you go on for several more paragraphs just to amplify that fact. Yet you still find it convenient to use it to try to bludgeon Americans and Christians, two of your favorite whipping dogs, over the head with it when you find it convenient.

Now that numbers show that your own people are just slightly lower in ratings you are doing quite a verbose backpedal here.

(I didn't include that here. If anyone really cares to they can reference your previous post. I do like how you drag race into it though.)

And then you go on to imply that a high IQ could be an impediment to ones social skills? Is this to minimize that small advantage the American IQ shows over the Canadians in that survey? Is why you don’t like Americans?

IQ also doesn't account for a person's "drive" or motivation. Further with Gardner a person may be very good on all of the multiple intelligences while a person with a higher IQ may be off the charts in mathematics and spatial awareness but could have two left feet, be completely tone deaf, throw like a 3 year old girl, can't draw anything except stick figures (guilty as charged) and be completely hopeless at inter and intrapersonal skills. They may have a 180IQ but they'll be yammering to themselves like the guy in a Beautiful Mind.

A great TV show for this is the Big Bang Theory - Sheldon is the off the charts IQ guy but in every other way is completely hopeless with social situations. Penny is obviously far superior on all of those social intelligences. As a result her character is the foil to the geniuses and arguably makes the show the continual award winner that it is. While Raj can't even speak to women unless he's drunk. So off the chart IQ but completely socially inept bordering on life crippling. So IQ is no longer really in favor

So, you’re now using a television sitcom as some sort of anthropological example? Where does that leave the Red Green show?

Well, since you brought up The Big Bang Theory”, Amy Farrah Fowler, Sheldons intellectually gifted but socially stunted “girlfriend” last night said something to the effect of “the smarter the monkey the more poo it flings.”

You’re really trying to come off as one smart monkey in your last post to me.

[Feanor]

This discussion is descending into the absurd.

Also, Markw is once again showing his intense anti-Canadianism.

[JohnMichael]

Well, since you brought up The Big Bang Theory”, Amy Farrah Fowler, Sheldons intellectually gifted but socially stunted “girlfriend” last night said something to the effect of “the smarter the monkey the more poo it flings.”

You’re really trying to come off as one smart monkey in your last post to me.

Just wanted to say I loved that line and The Big Bang Theory.

[markw]

This discussion is descending into the absurd.

Also, Markw is once again showing his intense anti-Canadianism.

Not all, just some. But, of course, you turn a deaf ear when one of yours dumps on Americans.

If you read my post, I was talking to, and about, one canadian, not all of them. .If you want to see that as an attack on your entire country, that's a personal issue for which you should seek help.

But I can always count on you and RGA to dump on Americans at every opportunity. Whys is that? An inferiority complex?

Seriously, most canadians I've encountered are nice people. Why you two like to come here and dump on America at every opportunity simply points to some deep internal troubles you two have problems dealing with and need to use this place to vent your angst.

Doesn't your national medical plan cover mental health?

[Feanor]

...
Doesn't your national medical plan cover mental health?

Yes. That is, the provincial health plans do; there is no national plan.

[RGA]

If you're under the impression that I defend the right wing religious dimbulbs in Canada any more than in the U.S. or any place else then I am sorry I put that out there. The fact that they're 23/24 regardless of order is pretty telling (if the numbers are correct) and depending how much stock you put in the test. But if we do count them you may very well feel happy that the U.S. is 1 point ahead of Canada - but you should be more concerned that both SUCK.

We have a nutty religious kook running our country and enough nutty religious kooks who elected him AGAIN and gave him a majority - a Majority in Canada means he can actually do some real damage now.

The difference is however - when Americans had the religious dimwit in charge for 8 years - lots and lots and LOTS of people end up in coffins. Canada may elect a retard but without a massive military there is only so much he can do.

Granted it could be worse it coule be Indonesia - but a lot of Americans AND CANADIANS (happy now? there buds.) are just as blood thirsty and would love to do the same things - They did it to Blacks and Gays - so there is a precedent with nutty religious people in NORTH AMERICA. Indonesian atheist attacked, charged with blasphemy after denying God’s existence on Facebook - The Washington Post

[markw]

Once one cut through all the bull**** you try to bury it under.

Post 6, in it's shortened essence, was that Americans fall back on religion because of their inferior intelligence, and you threw in IQ scores as added bluster.

When it was shown, in one short post, that canadians fare even lower in that area, you started spewing it like you overdosed on exlax. And, of course, your flying monkey just had to join into the fray.

And now you're tyring to confuse the issue by trying to change the subject. Oh so typical...

[Woochifer]

It's not that difficult to make quality guess as to these numbers - based on election results most of the time, Fox News Ratings, percentages of religious people in America (incidentally it applies to Canada or anywhere so I should not exclude the nutter there).

Subtract the non religious who vote conservative for entirely non religious views ratings such as their fiscal policy (although that may not make them any smarter!)

Add back percentages of Universities that almost entirely are left wing institutions (and their graduates), subtract the people who say they're Christian but who list only because they were born into a Christian family and don't really follow the teaching (ditto all other religious in name only folks)

Add in that 100 is deemed the mean IQ level which means half would be above that number and half would be below that number and 50% is a pretty reasonable guess. Indeed if the mean is 100 it means that half the people would be below 100. And that's the number I presented. University enrollment and the fat they overwhelmingly lean to the left/liberal side of the spectrum would indicate that more people in the above 100 camp are both university graduates, and thus tend more to the left liberal ideologies as do most of the professors. Which therefore means that more of the people below 100 are not. This was certainly what I experienced at University - with rare exception did I meet ultra right wing fanatics - one very nice Mormon fellow - he was intelligent enough to get into University but he did poorly in the classes I had with him - History where he was scraping by with C's and he was kicked out of the teaching program.

Of course there are smart people who have faith but as Dawkins noted that it takes a lot of brain gym and a willingness to shut one side of your brain off that uses reason to say "the heck with it I'll believe in the giant tooth ferry/tea pot in the sky for no valid reason whatsoever because a very weak book, the bible, passes as truth.

The entire religion is based on copying previous whack-job religions and it doesn't even make sense historically.

The God Who Wasn't There - 2 - Jesus Timeline - YouTube

Just compare the Jesus myth to the Oedipus, Romulus, Theseus myth stories of the time. They all follow a general pattern and granted people are brainwashed by their parents as soon as they can understand English but at some point you learn Santa isn't real.

The God Who Wasn't There - 3 - Raglan Hero Pattern - YouTube

And for all of that bloviating, you still haven't addressed my point -- i.e., painting the world in ridiculously broad brushes without any proof. In case you forgot, atheism is itself rooted in a leap of faith (i.e., you cannot prove a negative). For all of your protestations about how religious people perpetuate hatred and closed-mindedness, I don't see much difference in your mindset. I've know plenty of atheists and religious fundamentalists in my life, and I'm fine with both, so long as there's a basic respect for one another's beliefs. I don't sense any of that from you, only contempt and the very close-minded ignorance that you accuse others of.

Steve Jobs totally got it right when he pointed out that the fundamental sociopolitical challenge isn't left vs right, but constructive versus destructive. I would put the arguments that you're forwarding in this thread under the latter.