Friends I need advice about my sister....

[Worf101]

Kinda strange that I would come to you folks first for advice but hey, I guess you talk to those you love and trust the most. For those who don't know... I've got a twin sister... Denise. She is as different from me as night and day.

I went to college married late
She married right outta high school never finished college.

I've taken care of myself since leaving home at 17.
Denise has been looking for someone to take care of her all her life.

I've never been fired in my life.
Denise has lost every job she's ever had.

I don't believe in "organized religion.
She's a sanctified holy roller Church of God in Christ Zealot.

I have never gone to my family for financial aide of any sort since I left for college and the service at 17.
My sister has NEVER stood on her own two feet in her life.

Bottom line is I sent her $500 and change 2 months ago so she wouldn't be thrown out in the street and now she's back for another $400 plus so she doesn't get her car repossessed. I'm her last resort, she begged, borrowed and burned every bridge she's ever stood on or crossed. She owes thousands to the IRS and her ex-husband left her in the hole as well. She currently works "under the table" when she can and mooches off her grown son who's just back from Iraq. I think he's had enough cause he wouldn't even lend her gas money last week.

We've not been close since I left home. We only meet for funerals and she only calls me when she needs a money. She's never even attempted to pay me back all the thousands she's borrowed over the years. All of our immediate family are dead, I'm her last blood relative cept for her kids. Part of me wants to cut her off at the knees and tell her to "grow up" but another part of me worries that she might harm herself like the pathetic attention whore she is. Any suggestions?

Worf

[Luvin Da Blues]

Just my 2 cents. If it was me, I would offer her 50% of what she needs and make her responsible for the remaining 50%. This way you're still the "good guy" and gives her incentive to help herself.

By the sound of things, if you help out 100%, she'll keep coming back for more and more.

[ForeverAutumn]

Worf, please check your PMs.

[Feanor]

Worfster, time make a decision. She will always be asking for money and will never pay you back. She is family: if you have love remaining you might decide that you will go on "lending" her money in an extremity. In that case it becomes a matter of when and how much.

People are different. It's my opinion that they are mostly born that way and that good precept and example have only a marginal effect. Bear in mind that a this stage of life it's waste of breath at best, and harmful at worst, to rebuke her or be angry with her. On the other hand I fear she is the sort of person who will shamelessly exploit your generousity. Accordingly I think you should limit the amounts that you give her to the minimum for her immediate problem and remind her on all occassions that you have you have your own responsibilities and aren't a bottomless well of cash.

[ForeverAutumn]

I have to disagree with Feanor. If you give her the minimum for her immediate problem, it will never stop. There will always be a problem.

If the only time that she contacts Worf is when she needs money then it is clear to me that she doesn't want a "relationship" with her brother, but only sees him as a means to an end. She is taking advantage of Worf's good heart and sense of family obligation while she obviously has no sense of her own obligation to stand on her own and not be a burden to her brother.

She's selfish and, I know this will sound cold, she needs to be cut off immediately. She is Worf's sister but, as long as she is physically capable and mentally competant, she should not be Worf's burden nor his responsibility.

[Feanor]

I have to disagree with Feanor. If you give her the minimum for her immediate problem, it will never stop. There will always be a problem.

If the only time that she contacts Worf is when she needs money then it is clear to me that she doesn't want a "relationship" with her brother, but only sees him as a means to an end. She is taking advantage of Worf's good heart and sense of family obligation while she obviously has no sense of her own obligation to stand on her own and not be a burden to her brother.

She's selfish and, I know this will sound cold, she needs to be cut off immediately. She is Worf's sister but, as long as she is physically capable and mentally competant, she should not be Worf's burden nor his responsibility.

I don't disagree with a word you've said about the problem, FA. The Worfster's sister won't change and will alway exploit her brother if she can. However it might be that the Worf will decide to help her dispite that.

[JohnMichael]

I do not know your sister but I wonder why she needs the chaos and sabotages herself. I think she needs your help but she needs counseling more. I had a period in my
life where my problems were similar to your sister's. I felt the need to live in crisis due to unresolved issues. Rejecting your sister may not help but will reinforce her negative sense of self. I may be full of **** but this is how I filter it through my own expriences.

I also wanted to add that I doubt that church is helping her.

[3LB]

It depends on which you can live with more; guilt for not giving her the money, or the bitterness of her constately asking for it. Since you have already insinuated it, she may or may not use the money for the exact reason she's borrowing it. I have a 25yr old step-son who is the same way; constantly behind on bills, constantly getting tickets, constantly getting his liscense suspended, constantly asking to borrow money and has a history of lying about where the money really goes. My wife and I fight this about constantly.

Funny thing is, she has a sister who is 48yrs old and is the same way. Everyone else works and sacrifices for their family and this one sister is twice divorced, won't keep a job, has a string of boyfriend and basically grifts her retired parents and mooches of her siblings. She's also raised two really f'd up kids who are in their 20s and just as hapless.

You don't keep putting a bandaid on a bleeding wound, you fix the bleeding. Tell her you want to help her, you don't want to support her. Draw up a financial agreement twix you and her, making her responsible for paying you back; make her read and sign it in front of your wife. Show it to her when she asks for money again and hasn't paid you back or better yet, have your wife call her to remind her about it. Then you'll be added to the long list of people your sister avoids.

People like that will never help themselves if they don't have to. Don't be an enabler.

[GMichael]

Worf,

It sounds like you have the same sister I have. I still don’t know what I am going to do, so I’m not sure what to tell you. It’s hard to tell your sister no, but how can you justify throwing good money after bad when she never seems to learn. Those are resources that might be better used by someone else in your familly who actually cares.
It seems like you are just one more bridge that she is burning for as long as she can. How much can you afford to throw away before you shut down the bridge? After all, you know that someday you will have to say no. Till then, anything you give her will never find it’s way back to you.

[ForeverAutumn]

You don't keep putting a bandaid on a bleeding wound, you fix the bleeding. Tell her you want to help her, you don't want to support her.

People like that will never help themselves if they don't have to. Don't be an enabler.

I sent Worf a PM with my own personal story of my husband's brother. Similar to your story 3LB. After years of paying his way, the family finally decided that enough was enough and came to this same conclusion.

It wasn't easy, but the brother was cut off financially and given all of the emotional support and offers to help in any other way that you can imagine (we even offered to pay for him to go to college or trade school). But he turned down all offers that weren't cash offers. That told his family a lot about where his real interests lay. If he wasn't willing to help himself then we sure weren't going to be able to help him.

I know that Worf has a huge heart and it's difficult to say no to your family. But giving her money isn't helping her...not in the long-term. I agree with 3LB, it's just a band-aid solution.

Worf, perhaps you could offer to pay her to go for councilling. No councelling, no money. That way everybody wins. She can pay her debts, she gets the real help that she needs, and Worf knows that he's done what he can to help her for the long-term, not just put on the band-aid.

If she refuses the offer for councelling, then you know that her priorities are milking you for what she can and that she doesn't really want to improve her situation...like my brother-in-law, who was ready to take my husband's retirement savings, but not do the work (self-improvement) to earn it.

[markw]

This is very, very similar to a situation I had to face with my first wife's younger brother. He never held a job but could sweet-talk the stripes off a zebra and "used" everyone he met, Because of that he built up quite a following of people that wanted to do him harm.

His brothers and I were all against giving him further support since he had nobody except himself to support, and blame.

My wife (his only sister) and his mother insisted on mollycoddling him. They ganged up on me and had him move in with us when the parents moved to Las Vegas.

The conflicts he caused between us had a great deal to do with our break-up after 20 years of marriage shortly thereafter.

Two years after our divorce he was found dead at the bottom of some stairs in a drug-house in Newark, after he fathered two children.

You really can't worry more about someone's well-being than they are willing to do for themselves. Is your sister responsible for anyone other than herself at this time?

[L.J.]

My wife and I are going through a somewhat similar situation with my sis. We have been helping with every possible situation for years. Help with rent, car, food..you name it. I've called on other family members to help out on major situations but I think everyone is starting to realize this will never end. It's getting very close to the point of just saying no and she has to deal with the problems she has created for her self. I have never done this before so I feel for your situation. It will be a tough thing to do.

[blackraven]

I would consider a family intervention with all invloved family members and a proffessional therapist otherwise I would cut her off completely to force a change in her lifestyle. She needs to hit rock bottom and then she will have to make a life decision to save herself or not.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I have to agree with the folks that lean towards the tough love. I went through this three years ago with my younger twin brothers, and older brother. Every since my parents passed away in 2008, my brothers have been completely rudderless. It was then we realized that those three had been living off my parents for years, and had no desire to change. When they passed in January and March of 2008, my brothers wanted to sell my parents house, and split the money. The problem with that is that my dad believed in passing on the house to the next "responsible" generation, which would be my twin boys, and my twin nephews(yes from my twin brother, we believe in turning out two's in my family, so Worf, I understand twin anguish well), and he said as much in his will.

My brothers were in dire straights, but being the executor of the will, I would not sell the house. So as a compromise, I paid each of my brothers a portion of the fair market value of the house, out of my pocket, and to the horror of MY twin. Thinking that $75,000 would hold each of the three of them for awhile, I went on with dealing with estate matters. Well it never fails, six months later back come the other twins looking for more cash, as they had burned through all of the money I gave them. This time I had to tell them no(my twin threaten to murder me if I gave in to them), and told them they had to get a job and work their way out of their financial problems, no more on the dole for them.

My Grandmother used to say "si se le da a los peces a los hambrientos, están pasando hambre todavía. Si les enseñamos a pescado, nunca tendrá hambre". Translation " if you give the fish to the hungry, they will go hungry still. If you teach them to fish, they will never go hungry. What I told them I would do is pay for training that would teach them a viable trade, so they could support themselves. What I wouldn't do is give them another dollar of cash out of my pocket, or out of the estate. Well, they both got jobs(though low paying), and one enrolled in a welding class, the other in a woodworking course that would guarantee him a job once he completely training. As long as their grades held up, I would continue paying for the courses. In this lesson I learned not to throw good money at bad lazy habits, especially if those habits were not my own.

Sometimes when we think we are doing the worst thing, we are actually doing the best thing. A puppy (even a grown one) will always chase after the tit as long as there is milk. Sometimes you have to cut off the milk so they can grow to solid food(real personal responsibility). It is time for the milk to dry up!

[thekid]

Worf

As you can see from the responses you are not alone here nor unfortunately is your situation unique. I could add a similar tale about a family member on my wife's side who is draining my in-laws retirement savings. For the most part the rest of the family no longer honors his request for money but we now are being asked to help support my in-laws. I have made it clear that they need the money only because of their continued support of the dead beat. In this case the dead beat knows he is causing financial hardship for my in-laws but he does not care. I am afraid in the case of your sister she is aware of her actions as well. To me this is people just preying on the familial ties but they are family in name only. Complete strangers behave better than these type of family members.

I am sure somewhere long ago you have memories of your sister before she became the person she is today and those memories make it tough. But as others have said this is learned behavior on your sister's part and enabling her will never solve the problem. Once a person's personality (for lack of a better term) is set then only a life shattering event will change them. As painful as it is, you need to let her sink or swim. Perhaps when she hits bottom she will begin to change her ways. If she does not, do not place guilt or blame on yourself. It certainly sounds like you have been more than generous to her over the years and you need to take comfort in that fact rather than dwell on a person unwilling to help themself.

Good luck my friend.

[Feanor]

I have to agree with the folks that lean towards the tough love. ..

Your sister isn't a teenager, eh? My long departed father had an expression: "People don't change, they only be come more so."

If you've had it with your sister, cut her off. Compassion may have its limits. But while Terrence and others call it "tough love", I'd just call it "tough luck". Either way, it might the right course: your call.

[Mr Peabody]

Indeed, we all have family and similar experiences. My own brother and sister lived with my mom and dad way too long. After my dad died they both ended up living with my mom. I'm talking 40 and 30 something year olds. My mom worked and always has, what money they got they blew on partying and borrowed money off her for cigarettes etc. They didn't need shelter or food they already lived with her, it was pathetic. I quit giving them money way back I quickly saw the writing on the wall. I finally talked my mom into moving away from them because they became abusive. Unfortunately, people like that are users and the longer you give them something the longer they keep coming back. Also unfortunate is if you quit giving they just go some place else and never seem to learn to stand up on their own two feet. My sister is basically homeless. She is perfectly capable of working. My mom felt sorry for her and let her move in again in her new place and she just took advantage and my mom eventually had to tell her to leave. Drugs and alcohol are big issues but they've both had chances to clean up and won't. A word of advice, people like this are master manipulators. I feel for you Worf and you'll have to search your heart. I stopped giving to my siblings and we've become astranged. My mom can still be a soft touch occasionally so they still call her when they want something to see if the till can be tapped one more time. If my sister is desperate she will give her some story about getting beat up or thrown out etc. Exactly, a year ago on the 21st my brother almost died of alcohol poisoning, it was his birthday and the bar lined up shots, I can't remember the numbers but he was so far over legally drunk it was unreal. Coincidently the doctor who was assigned to him from the emergency room ran a detox program and I had talked to him about my brother. My brother did regain consciousness after a day or so. I think after the doctor or nurse mentioned the program my brother left the hospital without being discharged. He lost his job over it as well. Now I sort of wonder when we talk of having to hit bottom, just where is it.

[JohnMichael]

Worf, help her to not need you. One of the things that helped me immensely was a class on credit and personal finances. The class was given through a local agency that helped people that had too much credit card debt. I really had no sense about how to handle money. My mother raised 4 children waiting for a check from dead beat dad so she was great at handling money. She thought I should have picked it up osmotically. I was an idiot when it came to money. There was also a time when I needed to buy things to make me feel better about me and that is what caused a lot of my problems.

I have also been fired from several jobs. The last time I was fired I was told I had been a workhorse and should be proud of all I had acomplished. Once after being fired the manager bragged he got rid of the f@g. Regardless of how smart we are or how hard we work sometimes they just do not like us. Sure there is no excuse for being fired for poor attendance or poor performance. Some of us just are not allowed to fit in on the job.

For some life is easy to figure out. Others of us struggle trying to figure out why we do not fit-in. It has taken me years.

[Worf101]

One thing this thread has taught me is that my situation is neither unusual nor singular. Wow, listening to some of your stories I almost feel ashamed at having bought the subject up. Denise is bad but she's not a druggie nor a drunk (that I know of). Were there always such tortured/fragile/weak willed individuals or are there more of them? I guess in the days of the frontier they wouldn't have lasted very long, the community would've thrown them out. No true community can long endure healthy people who take all and give nothing, it's a recipe for disaster. I won't go into a long socialogical rant, but it is amazing... we went to the same schools, same teachers same everything and we're sooooo different.

I've made up my mind. I'll call her tomorrow and ask for the number of whoever's holding the lein on the car, find out how much she owes and if it's small enough of a figure, I'll buy it outright and be done with it. If not I'll pay the note for few months till she can get a handle on it. After that I'm done. For the life of me I don't understand why you sign up for car payments when you have no steady employment?

Sigh...

Thanks again all, you've proven once again that you're aces, all aces in my book.

Much love...

Dave

[3LB]

Live long and prosper, Worf

[thekid]

Much love..
Dave

Back at you big guy!

Good luck to you everyone else here who has shared their personal experience with this type of situation.

[Feanor]

...

I've made up my mind. I'll call her tomorrow and ask for the number of whoever's holding the lein on the car, find out how much she owes and if it's small enough of a figure, I'll buy it outright and be done with it. If not I'll pay the note for few months till she can get a handle on it. After that I'm done. For the life of me I don't understand why you sign up for car payments when you have no steady employment?

Sigh...

Thanks again all, you've proven once again that you're aces, all aces in my book.

Much love...

Dave

Dave, that is the compassionate course. I congratulate you for choosing it.

I was sorry to see some people suggest that she should be just cut off: that's not so easy to do with a family member you care for, nor is charitable in the best sense that religion teaches.

I was dubious too of suggestions that she be forced to counseling or other severe conditions. Trouble is these things probably wouldn't have much effect on a person her age. Such conditions are more likely to induce anger, resentment, or humiliation that could well be counter productive.

In practical terms people in many locations need a car even to look for work, much less commute to it once they've got a job -- of course I don't know your sister's circumstances in this regard.

[manlystanley]

What a thread. I fortunately don't have any deadbeats in my family. However, my son married a nice girl who comes from a family of 'problematic' folks.

With my youngest two girls though, they have such needs. I hope and pray this does not happen to them. But, I do have my fears.

Best Regards,
Stan

[markw]

Dave, I'm glad you've found a workable solition. I hope and pray that it works out well for both of you.

And, on another matter...

I was sorry to see some people suggest that she should be just cut off: that's not so easy to do with a family member you care for, nor is charitable in the best sense that religion teaches.

So were some of us that had to do it. But, as usual, you speak from conjecture, not personal experience.

What I do find curious, though, is that you seem to condone it as well.

Your sister isn't a teenager, eh? My long departed father had an expression: "People don't change, they only be come more so."

If you've had it with your sister, cut her off. Compassion may have its limits.

Can't make up your mind???

...and, also as usual, I love how you try to drag religion into the discussion to try to lay on the guilt.

[JohnMichael]

Dave, I'm glad you've found a workable solition. I hope and pray that it works out well for both of you.

And, on another matter...

So were some of us that had to do it. But, as usual, you speak from conjecture, not personal experience.

What I do find curious, though, is that you seem to condone it as well.

Can't make up your mind???

...and, also as usual, I love how you try to drag religion into the discussion to try to lay on the guilt.

From tough luck to compassion. Amen