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  1. #1
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    The Secret Machines - Now This is Nowhere: an album that can unite us?

    The Secret Machines' new album Now This is Nowhere will be released on Tuesday in physical form, although it's been available on iTunes and the band's website for a while. I'm wondering if this is an album that can unite us music geeks in approval. Not totally unite us; nothing does. But, you know, the way the majority of us like or at least approve of pre-Kid A Radiohead, or as many of us as like the Flaming Lips. In other words, it's not just for the indie-folks, or the rock classicists, or the proggers, but maybe it offers something for each camp. (Put in a more self-satisfied-sounding way, for me it's enough that this album is really good, but even those that only like music that sounds a particular way may enjoy this. )

    What are some other current or recent bands that a lot of us with different tastes tend to like, even though we disagree on a lot of other stuff?

  2. #2
    very clever with maracas Davey's Avatar
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    Yeah, I guess you probably saw that I made a post about it earlier today. I know that Mr. Mysterio said he really liked it in my Franz Ferdinand thread. And I guess Troy listened to some downloads and didn't think that much of it while Jim Clark did. Really hard for me to tell how well an album will connect without listening to the whole thing a few times, although song downloads do help some and this album is very accessible. And I already had the EP from a couple years ago so I was presold on it.

    I'd say that most of the Pink Floyd type spacey psychedelicized bands probably have good chance at crossover appeal. Mercury Rev, Flaming Lips, Spiritualized, Porcupine Tree, Grandaddy, etc.

    The Notwist's last album Neon Golden had pretty wide appeal. That whole indie-pop-electronica thing, or indietronica as some are terming it, has pretty good crossover lately with the Notwist, Postal Service, Lali Puna, Dntel, Four Tet, Mum, Laika, Stereolab, Hood, and all the rest.

    I kind of thought the Twilight Singers Play Blackberry Belle would appeal to most of us, but so far I don't think that has been the case. Not much PR behind it. It does have a nice full and muscular sound that places it outside of most indie rock, but on the other hand it's not as glossy or radio ready as most major label rock. Maybe stuck in the middle?

    The last Built To Spill album found a pretty wide audience, although I think they lost a few older fans in the process.

    The Black Heart Procession Amore Del Tropico has much potential for a wide audience since they seemed to keep most of their old appeal while adding a lot of pop sheen, but ultimately they are still on a small label and just aren't well known enough.

    I think a band would really have to be on a major label to have the type of across the board type of appeal you're talking about. Bands like Franz Ferdinand, The Strokes, Von Bondies, White Stripes, OutKast and the like with big buzz. Trail Of Dead got a pretty big following after their major label outing, but their sound is still kind of loud and messy for the classic rock crowd. I thought the Libertines might catch on with the heavy Clash connection in Mick Jones and the strong songs, but maybe not. British Sea Power seemed to have some of that crossover appeal around here last year as did Interpol the year before, but nothing near universal. The Dismemberment Plan just about had it, but guess not quite. Maybe the name? Of course, Wilco appeals to a broad cross-section, but much of that was because of the endless hype of YHF. I know a lot of people really like that Los Lonely Boys album, and it is good, but it's not something I would listen to often. And probably doesn't have much indie appeal as it can get kind of glossy and it's not well developed lyrically.

    This year it looks to be Loretta Lynn

  3. #3
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    Impossible -- I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the population has become too large, and too diverse, for there truly to be a single "pop" music -- music that is the most popular to the most people.

    Why try? I find it much more interesting to try to find music that fits my (or someone else's) tastes. I find it much more satisfying to actually take the time to learn someone's tastes and try to find something to match up with it.

    That said, sounds interesting, I will have to check it out. I believe it's in the listening station at Tower...
    Eschew fascism.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Chalk
    Impossible -- I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the population has become too large, and too diverse, for there truly to be a single "pop" music -- music that is the most popular to the most people.

    Why try? I find it much more interesting to try to find music that fits my (or someone else's) tastes. I find it much more satisfying to actually take the time to learn someone's tastes and try to find something to match up with it.

    That said, sounds interesting, I will have to check it out. I believe it's in the listening station at Tower...
    Just to be clear, by "us" I meant the Rave Recordings regulars. There have been some bands that have crossed over most of the different "camps" of folks here. I do believe in finding music that unites people generally, but I don't think it's as feasible now as it was in the 80s . . . .

  5. #5
    Indifferentist Slosh's Avatar
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    For the life of me I can't see why Spoon isn't better known, or at the very least to the level of The White Stripes or The Flaming Lips. Especially Girls Can Tell, which actually isn't my favorite album from them. But anyway, everyone who hears that album seems to love it, including my friends that pretty much only listen to mainstream artists.

    Knowing how the world works is not knowing how to work the world.
    Originally Posted by Troy: She has that same kind of cleft-pallet, slightly retarded way of singing that so many other people find endearing.


  6. #6
    very clever with maracas Davey's Avatar
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    BTW, just thought I would mention that for your $10 you don't get much in the way of frills with this Secret Machines CD. Just an inexpensive mini-LP type jacket with band name on the front and album name/tracklist on the back, and a CD inside. No extra notes or anything. At least that's the way mine is. They do have the songs listed on the disc which is something I do like and wish was done more often. Have you ever popped a CD out of your player only to find that you have no idea who it is and there is nothing on the disc to even give you a clue? I hate that!


  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey
    BTW, just thought I would mention that for your $10 you don't get much in the way of frills with this Secret Machines CD. Just an inexpensive mini-LP type jacket with band name on the front and album name/tracklist on the back, and a CD inside. No extra notes or anything. At least that's the way mine is. They do have the songs listed on the disc which is something I do like and wish was done more often. Have you ever popped a CD out of your player only to find that you have no idea who it is and there is nothing on the disc to even give you a clue? I hate that!

    I like that album cover. For what it's worth, on iTunes for $9 you get the album plus 6 or 7 bonus tracks. One from Secret Machines and others from the Von Bondies, the Walkmen, and a few other names that I'm forgetting. Pretty good marketing actually, and the bonus tracks are all good. The Secret Machines bonus track is killer.

  8. #8
    very clever with maracas Davey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slosh
    For the life of me I can't see why Spoon isn't better known, or at the very least to the level of The White Stripes or The Flaming Lips. Especially Girls Can Tell, which actually isn't my favorite album from them. But anyway, everyone who hears that album seems to love it, including my friends that pretty much only listen to mainstream artists.
    Yeah, that one has a lot of wide appeal, but you gotta have a hint of proggishness to really cross the boundaries. The last Super Funny Animals had wide appeal. Did anyone who heard it not like it? Maybe not dynamic enough for some tastes. The Starlight Mints crossover pretty well. Lots of old Bowie and XTC mixed with a modern crunchy sound. Probably not gonna play much in the Sloshmobile, though

    The Shins Chutes Too Narrow is another one that should have wider appeal. Do you remember hearing that they appeared on that Gilmore Girls show? I actually caught that segment not too long ago. Pretty funny. In a little bar. Reminded me of that scene in 90210 with the Flaming Lips playing "She Don't Use Jelly" in the club. Never caught that one until years later either. What a silly show. Gilmore Girls is kinda silly too, but kinda funny at the same time. Take more than a Shins appearance to turn me into a regular watcher, though

  9. #9
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DariusNYC
    Just to be clear, by "us" I meant the Rave Recordings regulars. There have been some bands that have crossed over most of the different "camps" of folks here. I do believe in finding music that unites people generally, but I don't think it's as feasible now as it was in the 80s . . . .
    Yeah, and just for the record, a lot of the examples that have been cited as of general appeal on this board, I wasn't particularly impressed with. I mean, I liked some of them, but some of them I didn't even get, even after hearing them. Sorry, I think my statement applies even here.
    Eschew fascism.
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  10. #10
    all around good guy Jim Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey
    Yeah, that one has a lot of wide appeal, but you gotta have a hint of proggishness to really cross the boundaries. The last Super Funny Animals had wide appeal. Did anyone who heard it not like it? Maybe not dynamic enough for some tastes. The Starlight Mints crossover pretty well. Lots of old Bowie and XTC mixed with a modern crunchy sound. Probably not gonna play much in the Sloshmobile, though

    The Shins Chutes Too Narrow is another one that should have wider appeal. Do you remember hearing that they appeared on that Gilmore Girls show? I actually caught that segment not too long ago. Pretty funny. In a little bar. Reminded me of that scene in 90210 with the Flaming Lips playing "She Don't Use Jelly" in the club. Never caught that one until years later either. What a silly show. Gilmore Girls is kinda silly too, but kinda funny at the same time. Take more than a Shins appearance to turn me into a regular watcher, though
    Boy, not to be a constant thorn in your side but I despised that SFA album. I could elaborate but I'll leave it at that. I had high hopes for that Starlight Mint album but a track comped by Troy dissuaded me from purchase so who knows, I could be wrong on that one but I'm not spending the money to find out. Didn't think too much of the Shins either although I did find a couple of the more upbeat, rocking songs very satisfying though.

    Now, I haven't heard of anyone who dissed the Wheat album but I think it wouldn't take too much work to find someone to step up and fill that void. The more I hear that one the more I wish I had it in time for 2003.

    I spent some time with Secret Machine yesterday and I'm finding I was more impressed with the online tracks I heard than the actual CD. Can't really explain it but I'm certainly not going to go gaga over it at this point. Tracks 4+5 really float my boat though.

    jc-short for 'just contrary'
    "Ahh, cartoons! America's only native art form. I don't count jazz 'cuz it sucks"- Bartholomew J. Simpson

  11. #11
    very clever with maracas Davey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Clark
    Boy, not to be a constant thorn in your side but I despised that SFA album.
    Ouch, quit poking me! Hehehe, thorn in my side? Why, have you mentioned it before or something? I was just throwing out some names that I thought had wide appeal, but I tend to agree with Dusty that there's nothing that can appeal to all of us. Something like SFA does cross many of the borders, seeing as how I know that me and Slosh and Darius and (maybe) Troy and a few others all like it. I mean, you don't even like the Beatles so we don't really think of you as part of our group anyway. And we still don't know what planet Dusty calls home

  12. #12
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey
    And we still don't know what planet Dusty calls home
    The name is "Blergarvia", but I've been here long enough, that I've begun to feel like this is my home.
    Eschew fascism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevef22
    you guys are crackheads.
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    Peter aka Dusty Chalk

  13. #13
    very clever with maracas Davey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Chalk
    The name is "Blergarvia", but I've been here long enough, that I've begun to feel like this is my home.
    Hehehe....Blergarvia, home sweet home. I don't know, doesn't have much of a ring to it, does it? Have you ever read Planet of Adventure by Jack Vance? Just read it last week and it's a blast.Takes place on the planet Tschai, a couple hundred light years from Earth. Originally it was published in 4 parts back in the late 60s, but this 1993 book combines them all into one volume. Definitely worth checking out if you like fast-paced sci-fi adventure stories with well constructed alien worlds.

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    For what it's worth, on iTunes for $9 you get the album plus 6 or 7 bonus tracks.
    I would say the worth is next to nothing.

    Option A(Buy CD): You get a physical copy, which you own, and are affored all of the *rights given to you for Fair Use under the 1st sale doctrine of US Code. *Note that this is genrally true, but technically you could be licensed like software, where you don't even actually own the disc(in any traditional/ sense) you get when you buy your 'boxed' license in a retail store.

    Option B(License Itune tracks): You buy nothing. You pay for a license. No rights are established by 1st Sale, since their was never a 'sale' made in the first place, according to current law. You can'te ven sell an Itunes track after you have 'purchased' the track(last time I checked) if the licensor does not want to allow.

    Sorry to go off topic. I just find such sales models(licenses, not actually sold goods, used on items in order to reduce consumer rights) to be unaccpetable from a consumer rights standpoint.

    -Chris

  15. #15
    very clever with maracas Davey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WmAx
    I would say the worth is next to nothing.
    Well, I think you are assigning more worth to the physical CD than it really carries, but one can't argue with your point that we are free at the present time to sell the used CD and recover some of our purchase cost, unlike with the download. For only one measly dollar more, I would definitely go for the full resolution CD with all its inherent advantages, over a compressed download. But I guess most places are selling the CD for closer to $12, as opposed to the $10 that I paid, so it does even out a little bit. And even though the bonus tracks Darius got are probably all available for free download at the artist sites, they do have some added value in convenience. It would still be nice to see a bigger differential between the cost of physical and non-physical media, but if people are buying at current prices I wouldn't expect them to go anywhere except up.....

    Oh, and one thing I meant to mention that the band brought up on that MTV2 show the other day is that there is often a huge time delay between the time the album is finished and when it actually hits the street (unless, of course, you are a reject from American Idol and doing the talk show circuit, in which case they can get an album out to capitalize on your name in about a week!). So the guys from Secret Machines were happy to be able to get the album out a couple months early by having their manager push for the electronic release. Doesn't add any value for the normal consumer, but could mean a world of difference to a struggling band that would otherwise lose a lot of sales by not having a CD to support their tour with.
    Last edited by Davey; 05-19-2004 at 12:19 PM.

  16. #16
    all around good guy Jim Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey
    Ouch, quit poking me! Hehehe, thorn in my side? Why, have you mentioned it before or something? I was just throwing out some names that I thought had wide appeal, but I tend to agree with Dusty that there's nothing that can appeal to all of us. Something like SFA does cross many of the borders, seeing as how I know that me and Slosh and Darius and (maybe) Troy and a few others all like it. I mean, you don't even like the Beatles so we don't really think of you as part of our group anyway. And we still don't know what planet Dusty calls home
    Guess maybe I have not occasion to disrespect too much of your music lately. Your taste in toons has most certainly improved! The observation due in part to the fact that I try to avoid the whole alt. country realm. Sadly I'm still mired in the muck of my own suspicious preferences.

    OK, none of this really makes any sense and I'm tired of trying to edit sense into it!


    jc
    "Ahh, cartoons! America's only native art form. I don't count jazz 'cuz it sucks"- Bartholomew J. Simpson

  17. #17
    Stone Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WmAx
    I would say the worth is next to nothing.

    Option A(Buy CD): You get a physical copy, which you own, and are affored all of the *rights given to you for Fair Use under the 1st sale doctrine of US Code. *Note that this is genrally true, but technically you could be licensed like software, where you don't even actually own the disc(in any traditional/ sense) you get when you buy your 'boxed' license in a retail store.

    Option B(License Itune tracks): You buy nothing. You pay for a license. No rights are established by 1st Sale, since their was never a 'sale' made in the first place, according to current law. You can'te ven sell an Itunes track after you have 'purchased' the track(last time I checked) if the licensor does not want to allow.

    Sorry to go off topic. I just find such sales models(licenses, not actually sold goods, used on items in order to reduce consumer rights) to be unaccpetable from a consumer rights standpoint.

    -Chris
    Well, a person is basically paying for the convenience. How do you propose it be handled? There are inherent differences and problems when dealing with a tangible item (CD) vs. a virtually non-tangible item (an MP3 or other music file) that can be copied at no cost.

    Also, the fair use and first sale doctrines are two different things. I haven't researched this, but I believe unless you actively waive it (which you may very well do by agreeing to the terms of purchase with Apple or whoever) you have the Fair Use privilege available, which allows the use of certain copyrighted works in certain situations. The first sale doctrine allows you to sell the phonorecord copy, but you still cannot legally rent, lend, or lease it.

    At the end of the day, I doubt most people care about this because as long as they can listen to the music, they're satisfied. I believe iTunes has samples of songs available so you can listen before you buy.

    Regarding consumer rights, this is not my expertise, but if people are informed up front about what they are getting into, how are their rights violated? It's not Apple's fault if a person doesn't understand the language, as long as they are not intentionally making it incomprehensible.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather have a CD than an MP3, but many people want the convenience of downloading, so they do it. The MP3 route may not be worth anything to you (or me), but it is to a lot of people, and it looks like it's the way of the future.

    Stone
    And the world will turn to flowing pink vapor stew.

  18. #18
    Toon Robber tentoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Clark
    Now, I haven't heard of anyone who dissed the Wheat album but I think it wouldn't take too much work to find someone to step up and fill that void. The more I hear that one the more I wish I had it in time for 2003.

    jc-short for 'just contrary'
    For the record, I thought it was pretty fluffy, and not nearly as good as the previous one.

    ----Never Off Topic, Never Rude-----

  19. #19
    very clever with maracas Davey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Clark
    Your taste in toons has most certainly improved!
    Well, of course that's one way to look at it, albeit from a somewhat obtuse-angled perspective

    Yeah, we do seem to be crossing musical paths a lot more lately. I tend to wear people down, and sometimes they don't even feel the ongoing assimilation. Careful though, your prized Johnny Cash collection is only a spit distance away from most of that "alt. country realm"

  20. #20
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey
    Hehehe....Blergarvia, home sweet home. I don't know, doesn't have much of a ring to it, does it?
    And that's saying something, innit?
    Have you ever read Planet of Adventure by Jack Vance? Just read it last week and it's a blast.Takes place on the planet Tschai, a couple hundred light years from Earth. Originally it was published in 4 parts back in the late 60s, but this 1993 book combines them all into one volume. Definitely worth checking out if you like fast-paced sci-fi adventure stories with well constructed alien worlds.
    Now you tell me (just got back from the library). Oh, well, remind me in a couple weeks...
    Eschew fascism.
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    Well, a person is basically paying for the convenience. How do you propose it be handled?
    Simple. Sell[1] 'a copy of' not 'a license for' in a non DRM format. DRM does NOT protect in any real/practical way. DRM does not stop anyonew who has any real desire to make copies. DRM does hinder usage significantly by legitimate users, though. As an example, if you burn the song to CD, you can rip and make any format you want. You can use a virtual driver and directly recorde the digital data going to the sound card, you can recorde the analogue stream, too, if you want. Selling copies will actually give the consumer something---something with value--- that is the problem. They(music companies) don't get profits from a 2nd hand market. So, why not try to remove the 2nd hand market? I can not think of a single good thing about DRM as far as consumers are concerned.

    [1]If some straight forward method to 'sell a copy of' can not be figured out(I don't know exactly how this is defined by courts, when associating software/code that does not accompany a physical embodiment), then a license(for the mere purpose of quanitifying something) that is non-modifiable and gives all normal rights(resale rights, for example) that would be associated with a CD to the user...... then that would be a good solution IMO.


    There are inherent differences and problems when dealing with a tangible item (CD) vs. a virtually non-tangible item (an MP3 or other music file) that can be copied at no cost.
    It's possible for anyone to rip cda from a compact disc and create any type of audio file you want. If someone want to disribute an illegal MP3 of a song they posses, they can and will. Their is no way to stop them if they have the intention. As I mentioned elsewhere, several methods can be used to achieve a non DRM file. What controls these ripped and converted(most likely to mp3) files from being 'copied at no cost' an infinite number of times? See note [1].

    Also, the fair use and first sale doctrines are two different things. I haven't researched this, but I believe unless you actively waive it (which you may very well do by agreeing to the terms of purchase with Apple or whoever) you have the Fair Use privilege available, which allows the use of certain copyrighted works in certain situations. The first sale doctrine allows you to sell the phonorecord copy, but you still cannot legally rent, lend, or lease
    Actually, I hurried my response. You are correct that they are different things. It was an error to mention Fair Use. Fair use a broad generalization, that extends to certain rights to backup data, commentary/reporitng, parady, etc. But you DO NOT have certain aspects of fair use unless Apple wants to give them to you, such as backup of 'software', etc. A license can allow broad, oversweeping power to the licensor. I feel that the governement should step in here and add a new enty to copyright law, dealing with music file sales. Peraps establishing this with the same rights as phonorecords or regulating what a license can contain or dictate for these distributions to consumers?

    You have the right to record(for noncommercial home use-American Home Recording Act, 1992 - US Code, Title 17, Chapter 10, Subchapter D, Sec 1008) onto any digital or analoge recorder, for non commercial home use, and can not be under any infringement of copyright. This was expressly meant to allow consumers to make copies of copyrighted works. See the judge opinions/footnotes in RECORDING INDUSTRY ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA v. DIAMOND MULTIMEDIA SYSTEMS INC. - U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals
    Case No. 9856727

    I could not find any reference to one having to have made the qualification of '1st Sale' in order to excercise the persmissinos granted by Sec. 1008. I must have remembered this wrong; I thought you had to meet that qualification.

    Resale is a right granted for(US Code, Title 17, Chapter 1, Sec. 109.) anything that comes uner the defition of 1st sale.


    At the end of the day, I doubt most people care about this because as long as they can listen to the music, they're satisfied. I believe iTunes has samples of songs available so you can listen before you buy.
    Samples? Well, this is very subjective, i guess. But I have never been able to judge any music on 30 second samples. I actually subscribe to Rhapsody because for $10/month I can listen to full length/unlimited music on demand. I use this service as 'my' preview service in order to find music I want to buy. It actually sucks to have to pay for previews, but I don't know of any other practical alternative. I would use P2P pgorams for this purpose if they were actually reliable as far as providing consistently fast downloads of consisitnt quality music files.


    Regarding consumer rights, this is not my expertise, but if people are informed up front about what they are getting into, how are their rights violated?
    My perspective is not about whether the consumer understands. Their is no other option. Are you going to buy from the online music file resaler that DOES allow conventional rights(such as resale)? They don't exist(yet). With the possibility that some artists may start distirbuting online only, then the option to buy a CD does not exist either. Also, it is possible that CDs could be not sold, but licensed in order to remove normal rights. Would it matter that you understood that your rights have been removed? You would not be able to do anything about this issue.

    The MP3 route may not be worth anything to you (or me), but it is to a lot of people, and it looks like it's the way of the future.
    The way of the future? My fear. Exactly why this overgeneralized, broad license power needs to be regulated.

    -Chris

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