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Originally Posted by MindGoneHaywire
Well, in spite of yr opinion, there the Edge is. So if what you're saying is true relative to his actual playing, it would seem that the compilers of the list took Darius' criteria into consideration, no? That criteria didn't address non-players, now, did it?
What criteria, "contribution to the music"? (shrugs) I guess. And yes, a vocalist contributes to the music, and is not a guitarist, so that, in itself, is inadequate criteria. I would need it expanded upon before I accepted it as an alternative to the actual stated criteria for being on the list, namely, being a great guitarist.
I'm not buying your reworking of the list for your own soapboxing.
Like I said, make your own list: Guitarists who have made great contributions to music. It's a different list. Johnny Ramone could well belong on that one.
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Now go back & take another look at yr post. First you say the Edge is a good guitarist, then you say that it doesn't matter what planet you're from, he's NOT a good guitarist. So which is it?
I don't see where you got that I say the Edge is a good guitarist -- you go back and look at at least one of my posts, I explicitly say "he sucks". When I questioned his standing at 24, I thought that it didn't merit comment, but since you need everything explicitly spelled out, I'll comment on it here: "The Edge @ 24?!?!? Why so high? In fact, why is he on the list at all? He's not a great guitarist." There -- clear enough for you? Quit trying to twist my words -- you can shovel all you want, I'll shovel it right back.
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I goofed, I think I saw a period where you were paraphrasing & I didn't catch it. Sorry.
But if you want to pick at this bone, I'm game. You'll have to provide me with a reason why you feel Johnny Ramone is a poor choice for this list. And you can base that on whatever you wish, including musicianship.
And I know that you play, so you'll understand certain things that others might not relative to certain factors involved. You may not be interested in reading about them, but I'll offer them up in response to anything you have to say about WHY you think he doesn't belong on the list, or why you think he's not a great guitar player.
Go for it.
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Because there are better.
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Better? At what?
"Playing guitar?"
What aspect(s) of playing guitar? Just the ones you find important?
You're trying to make a case that this or that individual doesn't belong on a Greatest Guitarists list that excludes Django Reinhardt, Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, Merle Travis, and Charlie friggin' Christian, yet elicits complaints that it excludes Steve Vai.
Johnny Ramone at number 16, what an outrage. I wonder if you are equally perturbed at the placings of Robert Johnson, Kirk Hammett, and, say, Tom Morello, all of whom rate higher here than Les Paul at #46?
That speaks for itself. Now: better HOW?
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Just...better.
If there are 10,000 guitarists in the world (and there are probably more), only 1% belong on the "Top 100 Greatest Guitarists" list. It's an exclusive list. You're asking me to defend my opinion, and I'm going to do the same thing you do when I bring up a good point -- ignore it. Of course it's my opinion, of course it's based on the criteria I find important. It's an opinion. Deal with it.
Don't get me wrong -- not being included on a greatest guitarists list doesn't make him a bad player -- he could still be in the top 10%. Do you know who I think is worse? All the Beatles (any of them that played guitar, that is). Angus Young. It's not that I am outraged at his placing at 16, it's that I'm outraged that some that are lower (17 on up) are not placed higher. They're better. John Frusciante is better; Brian May is better; Peter Green is better; Robert Fripp is better; Steve Howe, Eddie Van Halen -- they're all better. Andy Summers is better. Adrian Belew is better. Some are better in some ways, some are better in others. The only thing that matters is that they're better.
Heck, sometimes they're incomparable. How on earth could one compare say, David Gilmour with say, Rodrigo Y Gabriela (all three of whom are better than Johnny Ramone)? You can't. So you have to make an executive decision. It's hard. But sometimes, it's easy. You can't really compare the Edge with Jimmy Page, but Page is clearly better. It's not a difficult thing to state. You can't really explain it, but you can still decide.
You're trying to paint me into a corner, and I'm not playing. I will walk on the paint. You want to villainize me for picking on your idol -- I did it to piss you off (hey, there's a familiar sentiment), there are plenty of others there that I would (a) rearrange, and (b) knock off the list completely, in favour of others more qualified.
Hey, feel free to explain what interpretation of "contribution to music" would merit inclusion on a "greatest guitarists" list. See, you ignored that one.
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All of these guys you're naming, that you're claiming are better? If they are or were better, then perhaps you can make a case that they're better at what they did.
I don't see you making a case that they are or were better at what HE did.
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I already told you -- I don't take orders from you. Just as you don't take orders from me.
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You were the one who complained about Darius' post, not me. If you put forth a complaint as logically flawed as 'just better,' you shouldn't be surprised if someone calls you on it.
You & the OP both had a problem with the exclusion of Vai. Do you also share the stated chagrin of the OP that Duane Allman is ranked #2?
Do you believe that Frusciante, May, Green, Fripp. Howe, Summers, et al, are or were better at what Johnny Ramone did, than Johnny Ramone was?
Just asking.
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What is a great guitarists? Really nobody knows except them. To me you would have to either poll the players and they havent seen or heard them all. We havent. Cant be done because so many are dead. So really its a imo list. I'll bet 50 bucks that at least another 50 thats not on the list and not on this thread are as good as 75 on the list. So as someone said somewhere,these lists are for people to argue over. Its worked,dont ya think? BTW,EVH is way over rated. LMAO
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Originally Posted by MindGoneHaywire
You were the one who complained about Darius' post, not me. If you put forth a complaint as logically flawed as 'just better,' you shouldn't be surprised if someone calls you on it.
And Darius' post was not logically flawed? :Yawn:
Using the reasoning, "you started it", I can simply retort, "no, Darius started it".
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You & the OP both had a problem with the exclusion of Vai. Do you also share the stated chagrin of the OP that Duane Allman is ranked #2?
I said I had problems with the whole list, yet you're only picking on part of my statement -- the part about your hero. Yet you never explained how "contribution to music" might be reinterpreted to mean "great guitarist" -- who needs calling out?
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Do you believe that Frusciante, May, Green, Fripp. Howe, Summers, et al, are or were better at what Johnny Ramone did, than Johnny Ramone was?
You're trying to lure me into that particular argument again, and I'll just go back to my response: it depends what you mean -- if what you mean is "play guitar greatly", then yes, I believe they do. And I believe that nothing else matters. I'm not saying you're delusional for believing otherwise, but I think you would be delusional if you deliberately preferred not great guitarists just simply because they pissed people like me off. If Darius meant anything other than that with his earlier post, I have yet to see you make anything of it. Even he said that's what he meant by that, yet you continue to defend windmills.
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