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  1. #1
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Really good...

    ...music weekend...

    My wife had recorded a PBS pledge-drive special entitled The Rolling Stones' Rock And Roll Circus some time ago and we finally got an opportunity to view it...All I can say is far-out man...Anyone who may think the Who and the Stones have always been flash and hype need to see this show...It's amazing what a few talented musician/songwriters in groupings of 4 and 5 can do in an intimate setting...Couple that with Lennon, Clapton, Keith Richards (on bass no less) and Mitch Mitchell doing "Yer Blues" from The White Album and it don't get better...Could have done without Yoko writhing around in a black gunny-sack however...Jethro Tull, Taj Mahal and Marianne Faithful filled out the program...Thumbs-up most definitely...

    Part of the 3-day respite was spent buying music and part listening to it...

    As I've said in the past, I mostly have analog recordings and I have no intention of trying to replicate my collection in digital form...but...

    One I have chosen to duplicate is jazz pianist Claude Bolling's Suite For Flute And Jazz Piano Trio with classical flautist Jean-Pierre Rampal...Anyone interested in classical or jazz really needs to look for this one IMHO. While it's over thirty years old, to these ears it still sounds as fresh and creative as it did when I purchased the orignal vinyl waybackwhen...Is it jazz laced with classical or classical jazzed up? In either case, I think if you like either form, you'll like this disc...A disk/disc face-off will happen eventually...

    Next digital replacement: Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here...I actually like it better than DSOTM...Being a guitarist, I may be prejudiced, but some of Gilmour's best work is on this album IMO...Animals, when I can find it, will probably be next...

    Van Morrison's Moondance joined my growing disc collection...I'm particularly fond of the title cut and Into The Mystic but had forgotten what an overall entertaining album it really is...

    Last purchase: Boccherini's Guitar Quintets performed by Fabio Biondi and Europa Galante...unfortunately haven't given it a serious listen as of yet, but the cut I have heard (via radio) Quintet #4 in D major "Fandango" sounded interesting...I'll reserve further comment 'til...

    Sunday was listening day, rare quiet day...the constant, steady rain helped...

    First the Bolling "Suite", followed by Kind Of Blue (wife and I even sorta' danced to the more uptempo Freddie Frealoader), Bill Evans Portrait In Jazz which reprises KOBs Blue In Green w/two takes (Evans was the pianist on all but one KOB cuts BTW), then The Guitar Artistry Of Charlie Byrd just because I like it and ending with Brubeck's Take Five...

    Next time I think it will be a Dylan-esque extravaganza...All in all a very satisfying musical weekend...

    jimHJJ(...too bad there isn't the luxury of more like it...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

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    Looks like RL is slowly coming over to the Digital Dark Side. Let me know when you're ready for a cell phone and service. I've done the research.

    As I was reading your paragraph about the Stone's R&R Circus, it dawned on me that I just read a piece in a Rolling Stone mag issue about that exact event while waiting to get my haircut last Friday. I had no idea it was on PBS. OTOH I usually avoid PBS during their begathons because they interrupt some great performances with their spiels.Hard for me to maintain interest...

    BTW, was that a VCR recording or a DVR recording your wife made?.

  3. #3
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    As it happens...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    Looks like RL is slowly coming over to the Digital Dark Side. Let me know when you're ready for a cell phone and service. I've done the research.

    As I was reading your paragraph about the Stone's R&R Circus, it dawned on me that I just read a piece in a Rolling Stone mag issue about that exact event while waiting to get my haircut last Friday. I had no idea it was on PBS. OTOH I usually avoid PBS during their begathons because they interrupt some great performances with their spiels.Hard for me to maintain interest...

    BTW, was that a VCR recording or a DVR recording your wife made?.
    ...I like to listen late at night w/ 'phones and my gear isn't in a comfy spot and setting up my STAX is a PITA at night, so I use my Sears-sourced GPX CDP ($7 after rebate) and modded $6 SONY 'phones...and once in a while I plug the CDP into my Waveradio in the bedroom...so while I have a small CD collection, mostly stuff that's not in my analog stacks, I do miss the chance to listen to some of my fave albums...so until I get a CD recorder and can make transfers...yada, yada, yada...

    A SONY Hi-Fi VCR of course...although a DVD recorder with at least an 80gig hard drive is looming large...tapes are getting difficult to find...

    jimHJJ(...cell phone? Unless they outlaw land lines, not in this lifetime...BTW I already have one provided by my employer...it stays in my desk drawer...due to my building's construction it's all revved up and no signal to show...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  4. #4
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Next digital replacement: Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here...I actually like it better than DSOTM...Being a guitarist, I may be prejudiced, but some of Gilmour's best work is on this album IMO...Animals, when I can find it, will probably be next...
    Yup, I prefer both Wish You Were Here and Animals to Dark Side of the Moon by a long shot.
    Eschew fascism.
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  5. #5
    all around good guy Jim Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Chalk
    Yup, I prefer both Wish You Were Here and Animals to Dark Side of the Moon by a long shot.
    not that I think anyone especially cares, but DSOTM is my least favorite of all I've heard. I know I won't like anything earlier than Meddle so I save myself the time, effort and dough.

    jc
    "Ahh, cartoons! America's only native art form. I don't count jazz 'cuz it sucks"- Bartholomew J. Simpson

  6. #6
    Forum Regular MindGoneHaywire's Avatar
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    The Circus is an interesting watch. Was that the only gig Tony Iommi did with Jethro Tull? If you compare Yoko's performance with side two of Live Peace In Toronto, it's positively melodic. Taj Mahal is great; Marianne Faithfull simply cannot sing well, though as a performer, she does emote effectively & brings something to the table.

    The Rolling Stones simply didn't think this through very well. Brian Jones wasn't really a part of the band anymore, and I've read that part of the time his amp was turned down. Plus, outside of being tired after not having slept for more than a day, they were mostly previewing brand new material. Which doesn't seem brand new now, but Beggar's Banquet hadn't been released at the time (or maybe it'd been out for a week, if that). And they did at least one from Let It Bleed, which wouldn't be out yet for a year. They hadn't toured in nearly two years & after all the distractions they'd had during that period they were probably not at the top of their game, live-wise, to begin with, let alone being as tired as they were by the time they were filmed. Plus, they were capable of sucking wildly at times (ample evidence of which was on display a few months later, when they played Hyde Park, though who's to say how much impact the death of Brian Jones impacted that gig...but they had no such excuse for attempting to get through a song included on the extras of the Gimme Shelter DVD with Keith Richards' resonator guitar so out-of-tune it was painful).

    That said, that material of course soon became very popular & most anyone watching the program is probably well familiar with it. It's not a bad performance, mind you, just one that stayed in the vaults for nearly 30 years for a reason. I remember the first time I saw a boot of it. My first impression was that the live takes in Gimme Shelter (at MSG, not Altamont, natch) & on Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out (same MSG shows, yet they of course weren't going anywhere near what the Maysles made available only recently) were much better, and that the Circus wasn't bad, just more interesting than good.

    But the really surprising thing about how the Rolling Stones would've planned this thing is the inclusion of the Who. There are lots of people who think that the reading of A Quick One was far superior to the Stones' set, and I agree with it (and that's coming from someone who dislikes the Who's live performances by this time as largely a collection of jams that were destructive deviations & extensions of the material as originally written). Some even think that was part of why the Circus sat in the vaults--that they felt upstaged, and not by Lennon, who everyone would expect to be great, but by the Who, who took people by surprise. But they were just off a tour, I think. This is why I've never understood this, because it's the sort of detail Mick Jagger usually would try to avoid, or at least minimize. Instead, in a prime slot, they place perhaps the only outfit at that moment in time who was capable of coming off that much better than the Stones.

    The problem with watching it on PBS is having to listen to the pledge drive stuff during the breaks. Yes, we know that the Rolling Stones were great. Some of the background interview stuff was interesting, but...

    ...outside of the very strange promotional video that the Stones did for 'Child Of The Moon,' the most interesting piece of video that I've seen of them from that period, is in a movie called One Plus One. I think it might be released as Sympathy For The Devil in some countries, and I think that might've been the original title? I don't know. Jean-Luc Godard, if I remember correctly. It's a tough watch: snippets of plotless avant-garde cinema verite, or at least that's my uninformed impression, interspersed with one-of-a-kind footage of the Rolling Stones in the studio recording the song Sympathy For The Devil. The first two or three sessions, the arrangement of the song is so radically different, it's almost unfathomable how the song morphed into the version we've always known. I'm not sure I'd call it a straight-up rock song, but it's a heck of a lot closer to that description than anything having to do with any exotic rhythms such as the sambe it eventually became.

    It's the single best example of the musical imagination they possessed than anything else I've ever heard or seen. As you watch each progressive session, and see how the various elements of the song fell into place, compared to what it started out as...I think anyone would be hard-pressed to make a case that even Beatles songs underwent more impressive & dramatic transformations. That is to say, if you listen to the demos on, say, the Anthology, and then compare them to the finished product...this is at least as much an accomplishment so far as I'm concerned.

    All of which is not to put down the Circus, but A Quick One is far & away the highlight for me; but do seek out a copy of the SFTD sessions for a watch that says more about what the Rolling Stones were capable of than just about anything I've ever seen.

    I don't like others.

  7. #7
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    solid stuff

    Oh, to be a fly on the wall for that weekend of great tunes--although I probably would have felt like a third wheel during the dancing bits...

    I'll have to check out the Claude Bolling. It sounds like something in which I would have some interest.


    Cheers

  8. #8
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    Heck...

    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Oh, to be a fly on the wall for that weekend of great tunes--although I probably would have felt like a third wheel during the dancing bits...

    I'll have to check out the Claude Bolling. It sounds like something in which I would have some interest.


    Cheers
    ...I felt like a third wheel during the dancing bits...few have witnessed my peculiar manifestations of the terpsichorean muse...and for good reason...my wife tolerates it in her own bemused manner...

    Re: the Bolling...It was supposedly "on the charts" for 530 weeks and became quite popular...I think that it is a really good synthesis of both genres...be sure to get the one with Bolling and Rampal, mine is a Dutch re-issue...There is at least one other reading of the work from an unknown (at least to me) group of musicians...According to the liner notes of the latter, the suite has become a part of the jazz canon and the performance is their take on it...Given the fact it's half the price, I may take a chance to compare the two...

    Bolling also has a Vol. 2 and others in a similar vein...one for classical guitar w/ Alexandre Lagoya (sp?) and another for cello w/ Yo-Yo Ma...I do have the the Lagoya vinyl and while it was good, I don't quite think it's up there with the Rampal, although I really need to refresh my memory as I only can recall the melody of one piece...Never heard the Yo-Yo...

    jimHJJ(...anyway, good listening...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

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    Mgh...

    ...a bit of that background was covered during the pledge-breaks with someone from the newer production team...Luckily, taping it allowed us to zipp through the usual PBS zzzzzz...

    While the Who's a' cappella opening and overall performance was A+, I really don't know why Jagger had a problem with his own groups' performance. Given the fact it was a really straightforward, stripped-down performance makes that much more impressive IME, no harmonies (save for the chorus used in Salt Of The Earth), no overdubs...No Expectations, and Jones' simple but effective slide work in it, was top-shelf IMHO...and in a day where the current pop icons need either to lip-synch or use other bolstering frippery, Jumpin' Mick held his own impressively...Maybe it's just the petulant artiste in him that "delayed" the show's relase 'til now...

    Anywho, whether it was the Who, the 'Stones or Dirty Mac, it's performances like these that only re-inforce my opinion of how p!$$-poor most current performers are...

    jimHJJ(...within my admittedly limited purview that is...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  10. #10
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Hey Jim,

    Sounds like a great way to enjoy tunes brought on by a great weekend. Excellent. And thanks for sharing that. I shall check the Claude Bolling out. Also finally got my mint copy of Charlie Byrd. Will listen to it tonight.
    Wishing you many more days like that.

    Peace

    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

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    Thanks...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernd
    Hey Jim,

    Sounds like a great way to enjoy tunes brought on by a great weekend. Excellent. And thanks for sharing that. I shall check the Claude Bolling out. Also finally got my mint copy of Charlie Byrd. Will listen to it tonight.
    Wishing you many more days like that.

    Peace

    ...hope you enjoy the Byrd...

    I'm really sorry to hear about your pup problems, best wishes on that...

    jimHJJ(...I like doggies...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  12. #12
    Forum Regular MindGoneHaywire's Avatar
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    >whether it was the Who, the 'Stones or Dirty Mac, it's performances like these that only re-inforce my opinion of how p!$$-poor most current performers are...

    I'm not sure why you continue to insist on hammering home this musical non-point, especially since you seemed to only like the Dirty Mac when Yoko wasn't singing. Which was only for half of their performance, the same ratio as can be found on the Live Peace In Toronto album.

    In the same era the Rolling Stones were also responsible for putting out performances like Jamming With Edward...familiar? Compare the "Rolling Stones" version of Memo From Turner on Metamorphosis with the version Ry Cooder played on? Hey, Metamorphosis, there's a good example of why anything that happened back then is automatically better than anything else going on today! Ummm...ever actually seen "The Stones In The Park?" Spin "Got Live If You Want It" recently? How about some of those great Ed Sullivan performances, such as when the bold rebels who'd refused to stand on the revolving stage for Sunday Night At The London Palladium not long before decided to sing 'Let's Spend Some Time Together?'

    Oh, and let's not forget other great live albums like Love You Live and Still Life. Oh, I forgot. Those weren't of the same era. Guess they don't count, then? Never mind that, excepting the outtakes that made it to subsequent records, most folks would say that the Rolling Stones haven't made a great record in nearly 30 years.

    I'm not a fan of Tommy, Live At Leeds, or just about anything Eric Clapton did after the one record he made with the Bluesbreakers. You are free to disagree, but if you want to talk about how great Lennon was, then perhaps you could tell us what was so great about Two Virgins, Life With The Lions, Some Time In New York City, Rock And Roll, or his contributions to Yoko's records...or David Peel's, for that matter.

    Today we have folks like Tom Waits, Bob Dylan, Steve Earle, and especially Nick Cave, not to mention the scrapings of the Johnny Cash tapes, which are impressive. According to you, it was all so great then, and all is lost by now. Yeah, it wasn't like the Beatles were above collective works like some of the weaker MMT songs, Revolution 9, or brilliant endeavors like the Zapple label...or, individually, classics like the soundtrack to the Family Way, Electronic Music, Sentimental Journey, Wild Life...yeah, it was all peaches & cream from our approved musical heroes.

    And Nick Cave is inferior...how?

    In Got Live If You Want It, The Stones In The Park, Love You Live, and Still Life, the Rolling Stones have managed four of the absolute worst live recordings I've ever heard in my life. A far cry from their appearance at the T.A.M.I. show or Ladies And Gentlemen The Rolling Stones. Oh, yeah, there are those out-of-tune snippets on the aforementioned Gimme Shelter DVD as well. This is what proves to you how much better things were then, as opposed to now, when everything sucks, huh?

    Interesting.

    Lastly, as to the perceptions of the Rolling Stones as to their performance, remember that the material was all-new at the time; Satanic Majesties had been considered a flop, and Between The Buttons hadn't exactly set the world on fire either, meaning it was by then nearly three years since a well-received Rolling Stones album. They thought they had righted their path, but they couldn't be sure. The video footage of Sympathy For The Devil suggests that they were second-guessing their ideas every step of the way, as do certain bootlegs from the period. Mick Jagger played 'Stray Cat Blues' for Anita Pallenberg after having a variety of people affirm for him that it was brilliant, and she dismissed it as crap that required a major remix, which was promptly done. That couldn't have done wonders for his confidence, right?

    That anecdote, as well as the recordings I referenced, were mysteriously absent from the puffery espoused by those trying to cajole folks into paying $90 or thereabouts for a $15 DVD. And I think it speaks to why the perception existed that it was not a great performance on the part of the Stones. And while I enjoy it just fine, I maintain that its obscurity speaks more to its interest than its quality.

    I don't like others.

  13. #13
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    What is with you...

    ...has it actually gone haywire?

    Perhaps you would be happier if I said everyone sucks and once in a while they might be capable of a decent performance...Try to have a reasonable exchange with you and woosh! right down the toilet...

    Foist, get it right:

    Quote Originally Posted by RL
    Anywho, whether it was the Who, the 'Stones or Dirty Mac, it's performances like these that only re-inforce my opinion of how p!$$-poor most current performers are...

    jimHJJ(...within my admittedly limited purview that is...)
    I'd listen to four hours of "Yer Blues" (not my particular fave of the show, more noteworthy for the players) before I'll listen to just about any of the current musical spew...

    Since I addressed you specifically, my paranthetical disclaimer was added to indicate that no, I haven't heard everything in the world, nor do I care to and yet you still run with it as is your style, your raison d'etre, your joie de vivre...give it a rest...is it any wonder folks don't particularly like you? Always one-upping anyone, anywhere, anytime with your vast pop icon lore...Who gives a rats @$$ about Anita Pallenberg or Anita Bryant for that matter? And just for the record, I am of the opinion that Lennon was an idiot for hooking up with Yoyo Ono...

    So just sit down, with a Starbuck's tall mocha-chino, analyze your "man in black" personna and contemplate your Converse hi-tops...

    jimHJJ(...perhaps you should consider being sedated...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  14. #14
    Forum Regular MindGoneHaywire's Avatar
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    >Perhaps you would be happier if I said everyone sucks and once in a while they might be capable of a decent performance

    No.

    >Try to have a reasonable exchange with you and woosh! right down the toilet...

    That's about how I feel, too. Sorry for actually caring about music. The attitude that shows through in yr repeated statements about how great everything once was, and how lousy it now all is, is the enemy of music so far as I'm concerned. Hence my brief laundry list of inferior recordings and performances by some of the folks you consider automatically better than just about anything today, a determination you've arrived at apparently without hearing much by the 'current crop' that some of us would describe as actually being worth listening to, and possibly without having heard some of the recordings I've referenced. I'm not sure why this is supposed to make any sense.

    >I'd listen to four hours of "Yer Blues" (not my particular fave of the show, more noteworthy for the players)

    That says it all right there. I'm not impervious to curiosity myself, which is why I seek out the 'Jamming With Edward' type recs that feature players that interest me. But I'm far more interested in a toon I like than a performance I like a little less...that someone would sit through repeated listenings of due to who the players are, rather than what it is they're playing. But it also ignores that the musical intent of the Dirty Mac spent as much time on Yoko's ideas as it did on the one Lennon tune. Would you rather sit through repeated listenings of a record like Self-Portrait, or a well-recommended collection of Dylan covers by more contemporary artists? Not hard to figure the answer based on what you said about the Dirty Mac. And, in spite of the fascination of watching that lineup, that makes little sense to me.

    >is it any wonder folks don't particularly like you?

    I thought it was my tagline. Should I try harder?

    >Always one-upping anyone, anywhere, anytime with your vast pop icon lore...

    Give me a break. Spout crap, expect to get called on it. PLENTY of people have expressed that their tastes run towards the past, not the present, but you are, quite specifically, one of the most consistently condescending members of this subset of fans that I've come across. In spite of what you may think, I have no problem with someone not owning a record newer than 30 years & not wanting to hear anything any newer than that. But most people who feel this way seem to be able to express this preference without injecting obnoxiousness into it.

    >Who gives a rats @$$ about Anita Pallenberg or Anita Bryant for that matter?

    Anita Pallenberg's opinion happened to be valued by the Rolling Stones, musically & otherwise, so excuse me for bringing up something relevant to the discussion. I think it's interesting, and rarely mentioned, that the Rolling Stones entered arguably their best period after more than two years of musical, legal, physical, and romantic/sexual chaos that resulted in a career crossroads. Making Beggar's Banquet in 1968, after having made the mistake of following the trends of psychedelia, could've resulted in disaster & even ended the band if not well-received. It's easy in hindsight to say it's a classic & was always destined to be. It's more instructive to take a look at the development of Sympathy, to hear the sorts of half-a$$ed efforts they put forth such as on the Hyde Park show, and to realize that there were valid reasons for their confidence to have been compromised. The Anita Pallenberg anecdote is an example of this. So sorry for having bothered.

    >And just for the record, I am of the opinion that Lennon was an idiot for hooking up with Yoyo Ono...

    You are aware that he claimed that Ono's music influenced him a thousand times more than Chuck Berry's ever did, aren't you? That might seem like a ridiculous thing to say, but it's right there in the Rolling Stone interview, and it might not be all that silly, if you think about it: she inarguably influenced a great deal of his work after Magical Mystery Tour. You know...the White Album, Let It Be, Abbey Road, Plastic Ono Band, Imagine...what you describe as idiocy inspired a lot of his best work, whether you care to admit it or not. Just because she shrieked atonally didn't mean she didn't understand music, either; in fact, she knows quite a bit about it & was a music teacher the same year John Lennon MET Paul McCartney. But resurrecting this discussion is beyond pointless. Either you accept that she opened him up to different ways of approaching songwriting, or you don't.

    >So just sit down, with a Starbuck's tall mocha-chino, analyze your "man in black" personna and contemplate your Converse hi-tops...

    You may think you know something about me, but you're way off. Tell you what, though: I would relish the opportunity to play you some very bad recordings from decades ago by great artists, and also a few that I consider great that you apparently haven't heard, since you take the view that nothing, or next-to-nothing, is worthy these days. Is that something you'd be willing to try? I'm sure we could knock back a beer or two & have no problem maintaining civil discussion. I can PM you, you can PM me, whatever. Don't feel any obligation, but it's something I'd be willing to do, if you're game, that is. I'm willing to bet there's stuff you'd like, and I'd welcome the opportunity to pick a few tunes & see if that'd actually be the case. Let me know.

    I don't like others.

  15. #15
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindGoneHaywire
    >Perhaps you would be happier if I said everyone sucks and once in a while they might be capable of a decent performance

    No.

    >Try to have a reasonable exchange with you and woosh! right down the toilet...

    That's about how I feel, too. Sorry for actually caring about music. The attitude that shows through in yr repeated statements about how great everything once was, and how lousy it now all is, is the enemy of music so far as I'm concerned. Hence my brief laundry list of inferior recordings and performances by some of the folks you consider automatically better than just about anything today, a determination you've arrived at apparently without hearing much by the 'current crop' that some of us would describe as actually being worth listening to, and possibly without having heard some of the recordings I've referenced. I'm not sure why this is supposed to make any sense.

    >I'd listen to four hours of "Yer Blues" (not my particular fave of the show, more noteworthy for the players)

    That says it all right there. I'm not impervious to curiosity myself, which is why I seek out the 'Jamming With Edward' type recs that feature players that interest me. But I'm far more interested in a toon I like than a performance I like a little less...that someone would sit through repeated listenings of due to who the players are, rather than what it is they're playing. But it also ignores that the musical intent of the Dirty Mac spent as much time on Yoko's ideas as it did on the one Lennon tune. Would you rather sit through repeated listenings of a record like Self-Portrait, or a well-recommended collection of Dylan covers by more contemporary artists? Not hard to figure the answer based on what you said about the Dirty Mac. And, in spite of the fascination of watching that lineup, that makes little sense to me.

    >is it any wonder folks don't particularly like you?

    I thought it was my tagline. Should I try harder?

    >Always one-upping anyone, anywhere, anytime with your vast pop icon lore...

    Give me a break. Spout crap, expect to get called on it. PLENTY of people have expressed that their tastes run towards the past, not the present, but you are, quite specifically, one of the most consistently condescending members of this subset of fans that I've come across. In spite of what you may think, I have no problem with someone not owning a record newer than 30 years & not wanting to hear anything any newer than that. But most people who feel this way seem to be able to express this preference without injecting obnoxiousness into it.

    >Who gives a rats @$$ about Anita Pallenberg or Anita Bryant for that matter?

    Anita Pallenberg's opinion happened to be valued by the Rolling Stones, musically & otherwise, so excuse me for bringing up something relevant to the discussion. I think it's interesting, and rarely mentioned, that the Rolling Stones entered arguably their best period after more than two years of musical, legal, physical, and romantic/sexual chaos that resulted in a career crossroads. Making Beggar's Banquet in 1968, after having made the mistake of following the trends of psychedelia, could've resulted in disaster & even ended the band if not well-received. It's easy in hindsight to say it's a classic & was always destined to be. It's more instructive to take a look at the development of Sympathy, to hear the sorts of half-a$$ed efforts they put forth such as on the Hyde Park show, and to realize that there were valid reasons for their confidence to have been compromised. The Anita Pallenberg anecdote is an example of this. So sorry for having bothered.

    >And just for the record, I am of the opinion that Lennon was an idiot for hooking up with Yoyo Ono...

    You are aware that he claimed that Ono's music influenced him a thousand times more than Chuck Berry's ever did, aren't you? That might seem like a ridiculous thing to say, but it's right there in the Rolling Stone interview, and it might not be all that silly, if you think about it: she inarguably influenced a great deal of his work after Magical Mystery Tour. You know...the White Album, Let It Be, Abbey Road, Plastic Ono Band, Imagine...what you describe as idiocy inspired a lot of his best work, whether you care to admit it or not. Just because she shrieked atonally didn't mean she didn't understand music, either; in fact, she knows quite a bit about it & was a music teacher the same year John Lennon MET Paul McCartney. But resurrecting this discussion is beyond pointless. Either you accept that she opened him up to different ways of approaching songwriting, or you don't.

    >So just sit down, with a Starbuck's tall mocha-chino, analyze your "man in black" personna and contemplate your Converse hi-tops...

    You may think you know something about me, but you're way off. Tell you what, though: I would relish the opportunity to play you some very bad recordings from decades ago by great artists, and also a few that I consider great that you apparently haven't heard, since you take the view that nothing, or next-to-nothing, is worthy these days. Is that something you'd be willing to try? I'm sure we could knock back a beer or two & have no problem maintaining civil discussion. I can PM you, you can PM me, whatever. Don't feel any obligation, but it's something I'd be willing to do, if you're game, that is. I'm willing to bet there's stuff you'd like, and I'd welcome the opportunity to pick a few tunes & see if that'd actually be the case. Let me know.
    MINDGONEHAYWIRE...

    You need to be aware that RL's opinions, feelings, attitudes, reactions, and thoughts are the Law. If you do not subscribe to his point of view on things than you are automatically condemned and wrong. Unlike most people who can still be civilized with their debates and disagreements, RL must be condescending and amateurish in his attempts to make everyone else feel inferior and stupid. He doesn't like when people don't fall into line with his views.

  16. #16
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Now this...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
    MINDGONEHAYWIRE...

    You need to be aware that RL's opinions, feelings, attitudes, reactions, and thoughts are the Law. If you do not subscribe to his point of view on things than you are automatically condemned and wrong. Unlike most people who can still be civilized with their debates and disagreements, RL must be condescending and amateurish in his attempts to make everyone else feel inferior and stupid. He doesn't like when people don't fall into line with his views.
    ...might get confusing, but tell us again why your power cords improve your soundstage...the confusing part is, last time I "spoke" w/MGH in the RR forum we were discussing power chords...perfect fifths...

    I can't help it if you feel condemned, inferior or stupid ...simply provide better evidence than "because I heard it" or some other anecdotal twaddle to support your premise...Debate on opinion re: music/performers is way different than even a low-level discussion of physics and/or logic. I've never asked you to fall into line with anything, you've already fallen into a line of your own choosing...I've simply asked you to look at things from a different, more technically-based POV and weigh both sides with more scrutiny...and honestly, I think the prospect of being on the wrong side frightens you...

    jimHJJ(...MGH, sorry for the interruption...I'll respond soon...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  17. #17
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    Bolling is awesome, though I have to admit, I don't think I've listened to him in a decade or more...should dig his music out and see if I still like it as much as I remember liking it.

    My thing is melody (I like my music to have prominant melody), and IIRC, his is, too.
    Eschew fascism.
    Truth Will Out.
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    you guys are crackheads.
    I remain,
    Peter aka Dusty Chalk

  18. #18
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    And I know...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Chalk
    Bolling is awesome, though I have to admit, I don't think I've listened to him in a decade or more...should dig his music out and see if I still like it as much as I remember liking it.

    My thing is melody (I like my music to have prominant melody), and IIRC, his is, too.
    ...this will open Pandora's can of worms but...IMHO without things like melody, harmony, counterpoint, etc. there simply is no music...

    And now, as he shakes his head knowingly, for the MGH-inspired, parenthetic (this time I spell-checked) qualifier:

    jimHJJ(...at least to my western-biased mindset...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  19. #19
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    Anyway...

    ...little did I think a simple, harmless recounting of my weekend would breed this thread...but...

    First a few things, a legend, guide, some insight into what is to follow...and be forewarned, if "too many notes" makes your brain hurt, you might want to consider moving along...

    2+2=4...The sum of two distinct entities results in a third...fixed and immutable...If I add it up, if you add it up, if a man on the moon adds it up, the answer is always gonna' be 4...

    2+2 does not= opinion...Opinion is an abstract, and while it may contain some specificity, there are far too many fluid and yes, abstract components in the equation for my answer to gleefully align in perfect register with yours...although sometimes it might; just another bit of abstract happenstance however...

    We all know what IMO means, or IMHO, or IMNSHO...well, here's another which may or may not appear in the following text: WMLP...which for the sake of brevity will mean Within My Limited Purview...almost IMO but not quite, as there is some very definite specificity involved...

    Now to the crux of the biscuit...the weekend...

    I saw...I bought...I listened...We'll ignore the last two and get right to the "saw" part...I saw a taped PBS pledge-drive special involving the 'Stones and some other Brit bands...I liked it...my wife thought I might and she taped it, sweet thing that she is...she liked it...collectively, we liked it, as it took us back nearly forty years ago when we was just a-courtin' and folks like John Lennon, Brian Jones and Keith Moon were still alive...

    Some folks (even during the PBS broadcast) gave as one of the reasons for its' being MIA for so long as: Mick Jagger couldn't get no satisfaction from the band's performance and felt the Who upstaged them...His opinion, to which he is entitled...My wife and I thought otherwise...We were bemused by Ian Anderson's ubiquitous impression of a crane, thoroughly enjoyed the Who's performance, particularly the opening harmony, used Marianne Faithfull's performance as a bathroom/Coke break, were thrown for a loop at the iconic wonderment of Messrs. Clapton, Lennon et al, shook our heads at YOs "performance" (while discussing Mr. Lennon's idiocy) and could not fathom what was wrong with the 'Stones set...this is where all that abstract opinion rears it's ugly head...our youth, our music, stuff like that...

    Insofar as Yoyo Oh-no and her effect on JLs music...after the Beatles' break-up, I bought music from all of them what had it to buy...I heard Lennon's anger...McCartney's music-hall pop-i-ness and Harrison's seriousness...I really heard none of YOs input in the first few albums (specifically Plastic Ono Band and Imagine), wasn't particularly interested in or exposed to John's output after that 'cept for the stuff WNEW-FM played...and it seems he spent a great deal of time wearing sanitary napkins on his head and carousing with Harry Nilsson and Ringo...The only other album was Double Fantasy and I don't recall whether it was before or after the fact...

    So I post it...in far fewer words...but then...but then...but then...

    Along comes MGH...Sooo, bein' the nice guy I am, I try to engage him on some sort of common ground...But...it all goes terribly wrong as I have dared to opine that >>>WMLP<<< most current music bites...

    So then we get into Part Two of MGHs Tragical History Tour...Now I dunno' 'bout you folks, but I have a regular job and home life and while listening to and making music is important to me, I don't have the luxury of being keeper of the flame...While there are subjects I could bore you to tears with, I can't quote chapter and verse re: the minutiae of music...So Sabbath's Tommy Iommi performed with Anderson, Brian Jones was on his last legs and Anita Von Stumpf was boinkin' the boys in the band and held sway over them...How absorbing for you and all who might look upon such facts in amazement...I aint one of them...

    I'm into the prima facie of it all...the performance, the right then and there...so if Miles Davis was hassled in front of the Cafe' Whatever on Dec 3, 1959 at 8:42 am, it may have played a part in his abstract and somehow influenced why he chose a particular chord progression and played a specific melody over it; it's of little or no consequence to me...I am interested in his performance fixed and immutable in the recording media, which then becomes a part of my abstract, of my opinion.

    So goes it with the "Circus"...IMHO, It was enjoyable...And yes, I do care about music, I may not be as near-pathological about it, but I care about it...and no, I don't think the older stuff is somehow "infallible" if that's even the right word...What I am saying is that some musicians I enjoyed listening to gave a good showing in this venue and seeing it recalls many, many things which adds to the overall abstract related to it...How sadly, many are gone and how iconic many of them are/were...Period...

    Now, keep this all in mind when I address my disdain for newer music. There is a conceptual continuity component involved...

    jimHJJ(...as there usually is in my posts...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  20. #20
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Well said......

    .....Sir.
    And in my opinion a post with some important issues mentioned.For me-Post of the year so far.
    I also do not care or have the time to research every last bit of information and how it could relate to a certain performance.
    I just wish that when I am Jims age (sorry Jim) my other half and myself can spent a weekend like that.
    If the tunes do not stir the emotions then it surely does not matter who influenced who.
    On the other hand some people like that sort of microscopic detail and enjoy the research. Good on them.
    Anyway great thread.

    Peace

    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

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    I agree with Bernd...

    ...and I enjoy RL's writing style. It's amusing while at the same time intellectual. I also agree with Bernd when he says... "If the tunes do not stir the emotions then it surely does not matter who influenced who." Who cares about the politics!!!

    The amount of flaming that goes on at this site over people's OWN OPINIONS is phenominal. I consider myself somewhat of a veteran of internet discussion forums but I must say this is the one forum that has a serious lack of guidance and moderation. Three pages of personal attacks from one simple question? Threads going off in all sorts of directions? It's rediculous. I came here to learn, but I also came here to participate, and maybe make some online friends in the process. Very hard to do when I have to read all of the bitterness and animosity between people. I think I can say that we're all here because we enjoy the music, the film, and the gadgetry of home theatre, whatever form it takes for the individual. If I make a wisecrack, please feel free to point it out, but don't f***'in dog me everywhere I go. I see plenty of examples of the same thing from one topic discussion to another. This is just my opinion though.

    I do like the idea though of being able to automatically delete or close a thread if I don't like what's being said. Just KIDDING!!!

    Anyway, back on topic...

    RL, is this PBS presentation available for sale? Or is there a way to find out if a rebroadcast is in the future. I would just love watching Tony Iommi performing next to Ian Anderson. So much great history!

  22. #22
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Sure is fun though huh?

    I feel sorry for the mods here. Half of the posters here bash them for "interfering" with the flow of threads by asking people to calm down. The other half bash them for not getting more involved. Not that I'm saying that anyone here bashed anyone. It was just a thought I had that wondered into my head and then wondered away.

    There are a few here who seem to follow each other around nipping at the other's heels. A jab here. A dig there.
    Last edited by GMichael; 04-18-2007 at 08:19 AM.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

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    Hey there...

    ...Rich-n-Texas...thanks for the kind words...

    The Rolling Stones' Rock and Roll Circus...is out there, just do a Google...Amazon has it as does Circuit City via the web...of course you can always conrtact your local PBS station and spend way more than the $16-20 at a retail cyberstore...

    jimHJJ(...just kidding...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

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    Amazon, huh? Boy, ya never know what's gonna rear up in that shopping center do ya? I assumed that was a very rare recording and thus, would be hard to find. Thanks for the leads.

  25. #25
    Forum Regular BradH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindGoneHaywire
    The Circus is an interesting watch. Was that the only gig Tony Iommi did with Jethro Tull?
    Yeah, that one night was it. He had those metal fingertips and it apparently hampered his ability to play those chords. That's why the Tull performance is the only one in the Circus that's not completely live. Only Anderson's vocals and flute are live, the rest is the studio recording. My guess is it's not so much the chords that were the problem for Iommi but a lot of sliding up the neck on that song.

    And yeah, that's useless trivia and f*ck anybody who doesn't like it.

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